Question about spacing with/using wavedashing

[Ch3s]

I'm not even really sure how to phrase this question, but i would like to say it is aimed at Vist, Eddy Mexico, and Pakman specifically b/c as it seems, barring ka-master and ppao you guys are the best at WDing. Essentially my question is how do you guys control your wavedashes, and how often is it important to control the length. For instance, i often see Ka-Master do short wavedashes when he is out of range of his opponent, but he almost always approaches with a longer WD. The obvious benefit of it is that it is much faster, so the surprise factor comes in.

My problem is that I really want to bring my game to a higher level, but i play against alot of players who are ridiculously good at shutting down approaches that aren't perfectly spaced (Taj, Forward, and to a lesser extent TAI and Axe). I always feel like im WDing too far and it is sloppy and overcommited, or if im wding shorter, i just have trouble controlling the distance. I was thinking about maybe only practicing wding at certain lengths and then using those lengths when considering spacing, because up until now i just play it by feel but it isn't consistent.

Summary Question: Do you guys have any tips (besides practice alot) on how to control wavedashing in regards to spacing.

P.S. If you need to use an example, marth would be great, i have trouble baiting things from him without getting caught by a dtilt or fsmash b/c i WD too far and can't get out fast enough

 

[StretchNutz]

theoretically, you should always have maximum control over your wavedashes. you can wavedash any distance and then cancel it with a wavedash straight down, it is a good fast spacing technique. Just get good at aiming the thumbstick. Practice by aiming Ness' up-b maybe? BTW hi i'm from az and I play luigi.

 

[Ch3s]

theoretically, you should always have maximum control over your wavedashes. you can wavedash any distance and then cancel it with a wavedash straight down, it is a good fast spacing technique. Just get good at aiming the thumbstick. Practice by aiming Ness' up-b maybe? BTW hi i'm from az and I play luigi.

I know ur from AZ, we will have to play sometime, i live in Phoenix though and can't travel to Tuscon much. The problem with ur idea is two-fold:

1. There are sooo many different angles u can wavedash, which also means distances. This is no problem when you're playing someone alright, but when you really need to space well to avoid a punish even a little distance off matters.

2. The big problem is with the lag induced by wavedashing. After the initial input, you have something on the order of 6 (i think?) frames of lag, so one of the biggest problems is that if i have to wavedash in, then wavedash straight down, im losing alot of time. If its to avoid something like an fsmash from marth, i suppose then its alright, but against his dtilt or really any less laggy move it makes it too hard to punish.

Also if you were to space like that, you are essentially doing two wavedashes every time you want to adjust your position, so it just seems inefficient. I think Ka-master got around this by simply using luigis speed to get in and out in one or two wavedashes, and sometimes get a hit sometimes not. I'm sort of trying to see if it is possible to take a different approach wherein luigi can stay a little closer and thereby punish smaller openings and lag where typically he is forced to punish by waiting for the opponent to commit

 

[Winston]

I don't really get your example. When is wavedashing too far a problem vs Marth? Are you saying you're trying to bait a dtilt and then come in after it? Can you describe your example in more detail?

It really depends on what kind of hitbox you are approaching with. With the fast hitboxes (ftilt, jab, dsmash), I don't see why wavedashing too far would be a problem. If it's something like Usmash, then not getting there too early matters a lot, though a lot of it is getting the starting position correct as well. This doesn't really apply to Marth so much as it does vs. Jigglypuff, Falcon, etc. though.

I feel like you'll learn a couple distances precisely if you just keep playing and try to incorporate them, and that's all you really need because you can make finer adjustments with your starting position. I agree with Stretchnutz, just try aiming at different angles and you should pick it up soon enough.

To add to Stretchnutz' post, I usually use dashes instead of wavedash down to stop my wavedashes since that's a lot easier for me, but that probably works better in some cases. Also, wavedash -> sh to stop your wavedashes for spacing purposes is really good too. This is all stuff for adjusting your spacing in neutral positions, of course, not for attempting to hit punishes with tight timing windows.

 

[Ch3s]

Yeah i get what you are saying.
Here is an example: I play forward's marth, and his philosophy is that all of my approaches can be shut down by a dtilt, so as such he uses dtilt alot.

A typical attempt for me approaching will go something along the lines of: wavedash in and then there are a couple of things that happen:
1. I wavedash too far, and in trying to adjust (sometimes wd down, or dash back) i get dtilted. This may be the part where practicing and learning the distances is the most effective.
2. I wavedash too short, do another wavedash in but he is ready for it.
3. I wavedash within a very small window (really, its surprising how small), and essentially to give you an idea of the window, its obviously far enough to avoid marths dtilt and close enough to have the option of dash grabbing, or i more commonly SH fair (try it i guess, maybe its just me or the heat of the fight or something but the window seems crazy hard to get).

Now the thing is, this is a fairly easy thing to acheive IF i have about half the stage, because i can just wavedash and the only tough part is timing the jump. However, if i am closer, i often go too far before my wavedash lag ends. Now obviously this leaves me the options of being perfect with my wd or wding back. Im just asking really if its practical to wd that short.

The thing about long wavedashes, while they become much easier to control, is they limit a few of the options you have, they are predictable, and the worst part is the opponents ability to manipulate the momentum. As an example of that I guess, take Taj who probably has among the fastest reaction times of anyone playing the game. He can beat me with pretty much all of his characters because, as soon as i wavedash there is a certain distance that forces me to go before i can do anything, and then after that if i want to stop i have to wavedash down as you said or jump. If i jump, and Taj gets under me, we can just assume 40 damage. There really isnt a debate there, i have to get lucky to get down from all but the best timed and spaced jumps, and even SHs. The real problem is that if i let the wavedash continue, Taj essentially gets to choose how much space is between us at any point. So then the best option is to stop, and here i come to the dilemma earlier, wherein im too close to aim my WD. so I have to just WD in, and play a guessing game based on how i think he will react because he controls the spacing.

All im really asking is if this is just the way luigi is, you have to speed along and wait for your opponent to overcommit, or if you can actually utilize wavedashes to outspace someone (and i know, it really doesn't sound hard and maybe im wrong, but it doesn't seem like even the best luigis play like this, but ive always
wanted to try)

Edit: I believe I've found an interesting way around my dilemma. Turns out, if you dash and then immediately cancel the dash with crouch, you have something on the order of a wavedash, and i have yet to know for sure, but luigis dash attack MIGHT clank with some of marths moves. At any rate i want to experiment with implimenting this and using only these six wavedashes in terms of degrees on unit circle: 181(long), 225(1/4 stage), 247.5(shortest realistic, slightly shorter than dash), 292.5, 315, 359. I know that sounds limiting but I think it might help me improve in the long run. At any rate, just thought id throw this out there, feel free to tell me im an idiot haha

 

[StretchNutz]

do that... or cut out all the useless complicated stuff and just learn to aim your wavedashes.

 

[Ch3s]

do that... or cut out all the useless complicated stuff and just learn to aim your wavedashes.

I know the degrees sound complicated, but those are actually just the natural angles, probably the simplest i can make it for myself

 

[StretchNutz]

I would say that it would be simpler to eliminate the cartesian plane all together and simply imagine a 1-1 correlation between the movement of your thumbstick and the movement of your character. Practice dash dancing. Hell, I practiced by moving the cursor around the stage select screen. It's all muscly memory stuff, that's the fastest way to do it. It becomes second nature to skate around and stay just out of the other guy's range.

but do you, nawmsayin

Also the best way to beat Marth is wavedash in and shield. Figure out before hand if he is going to grab you or not and spot dodge if necessary. If he fsmashes your shield, WD-grab him or do something fancy. If you spot dodge either the attack or the grab WD-GRAB HIM OR DO SOMETHING FANCY or both. Don't ever be predictable, don't ever do the same thing twice in a row... then do the same thing twice in a row! Shield ***** marth basically.

 

[Winston]

I think there definitely is potential for Luigi to play a careful game based on precise spacing. But as you alluded to, I think the most successful styles for Luigi so far have been ones based on speed/pressure instead. I always dreamed of developing such a style, but then at some point I realized I suck and quit to play a top tier (okay not really, but I did quit Luigi >__>).

I kind of understand the problem situations you're trying to describe now, but not completely still. Sorry >__>

but, enough to say that it's definitely practical and important to master a few degrees of wavedash spacing at least. Even if you don't have every angle, if you have a few to work with, you can incrementally fine-tune the spacing of your starting position well enough so that you have pretty precise control.

And in general, if it's after a wavedash that puts you close enough to be in immediate danger, but you don't want to attack for whatever reason, you should just wavedash back instead of trying to fine-tune. What I said about WD in -> SH is more like, wavedash in and short hop to space yourself at maximum bair/fair range, or at their maximum approaching aerial range, depending on the situation. That spacing doesn't really allow them to get under you easily while you are SHing since you aren't close enough.

 

[Ch3s]

I think there definitely is potential for Luigi to play a careful game based on precise spacing. But as you alluded to, I think the most successful styles for Luigi so far have been ones based on speed/pressure instead. I always dreamed of developing such a style, but then at some point I realized I suck and quit to play a top tier (okay not really, but I did quit Luigi >__>).

I kind of understand the problem situations you're trying to describe now, but not completely still. Sorry >__>

but, enough to say that it's definitely practical and important to master a few degrees of wavedash spacing at least. Even if you don't have every angle, if you have a few to work with, you can incrementally fine-tune the spacing of your starting position well enough so that you have pretty precise control.

And in general, if it's after a wavedash that puts you close enough to be in immediate danger, but you don't want to attack for whatever reason, you should just wavedash back instead of trying to fine-tune. What I said about WD in -> SH is more like, wavedash in and short hop to space yourself at maximum bair/fair range, or at their maximum approaching aerial range, depending on the situation. That spacing doesn't really allow them to get under you easily while you are SHing since you aren't close enough.

Yup, i think you get what im saying.
@stretch, yeah i agree shield is hella good to use sparingly, but you still need to be able to approach with attacks, because when your in shield and they aren't in lag, you are inherently at a disadvantage, so wd-> shield isnt perfect.

I'd love input from any of the top luigis if you guys still lurk, maybe on your experience with this or something like Winston said you tried and it just doesn't work. Thanks

 

[Winston]

I didn't say it didn't work, just that I sucked to much to become a top Luigi >__>

I think it worked quite well vs. Peach, Samus, and some styles of Sheik, Marth, and Falcon.

I think I do pretty well with this in this set, though it's pretty sloppy at first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Y9voCAULk#t=3m48s

I don't think the style works well vs. Fox and Falco, because Falco's lasers make it sort of a "turn-based" game sometimes, and Fox has the ability to change his zones too fast. Also, both of them are able to attack too quickly and with way less commitment than it takes for Luigi to wavedash, so it's generally more viable to max-range a wavedash with a fast hitbox. The main thing that shorter wavedash lengths would help against them is to beat their sh bair spam.

 

[-ACE-]

Winston quit weegee? Nooooooo

 

[Ch3s]

I like that point Winston, and yes that was a good set, similar to what i was looking for. I didn't really think of it as different for spacies, but going back and watching ka-master against floaties he does exactly what i was talking about (or thinking about and doing a horrible job of explaining), and against spacies what you are talking about, so thanks i didn't realize that. Now to figure out the falco matchup, *goes to practice powershielding*

 

[Winston]

Winston quit weegee? Nooooooo

I practiced tech skill a bunch and then Fox became pretty fun, so I'm going with that for now. Who knows about later on though... I have character commitment issues I guess

Now to figure out the falco matchup, *goes to practice powershielding*

Haha, if you ever figure that out let me know. I still have no clue how to win that matchup. It doesn't help that there are no active Falco mains in MD/VA atm >_>