Punishing ZZS

[Smash4Hart]

Hey guys Hart here with some question that i hope you guys can answer

-how do you deal with ZSS shff nair and bair camping? its safe on shield so im unsure how to punish it? Is charging needles the optimal way to deal with it?
-how do you guys punish ZSS down b in the air? I mean this when she uses it high in the air as an escape option after jumping from the ledge not an attack option is it really that safe? every time i try to punish with uair i either with or get hit with the attack hit box.
-how do you guys like to play the neutral against zss?

 

[Metallinatus]

You never try to hit ZSS in the middle of Flip Jump.... you have to try to punish the landing.

 

[Jaxas]

Actually, if you jump into Flip Jump (near the top) and Air Dodge, she's forced to go into the laggy footstool animation and she can't do anything else until she lands (or falls for quite a while).

 

[Danimal197]

you can force her to approach by throwing your needles as soon as you see her nair start to come out. As soon as she commits to an aerial, that should be your cue to needle.

 

[_Tree]

1. Needles. All day. Needles rip up ZSS and then some. You shouldn't be running into them as the MU dictates that ZSS approaches you, not the other way around. Running shield also works though. Watch what she does after using the aerials. Does she go into shield? Just goes in for another aerial? Take note of her movements, and then run in shield > block aerial > drop shield > punish her landing option correctly.

2. This is pretty hard to punish. The first couple times she uses it you won't be able to do anything about it. Once she's done it though you'll know that its part of her repertoire. Take note, and adjust your on-stage position to stand where the arc of her down-b will end. She can angle where she lands, so be ready for variation, but try and cover every option. Punishing it with U-air is only for when you know where she's gonna land. Use F-air if you're not sure, as you can act quicker out of it leaving her less time for counter-retaliation.

3. Neutral with ZSS goes like this: Sheik needles her, ZSS has to approach. You mainly want to be wary of her aerial approaches. N-air can lead into grab, and falling U-air leads into more U-airs. You want to remain mobile, as ZSS probably has the most profitable punish game in the business. Shield her aerials and then punish. If she's near the ground after shorthopping and hasn't thrown out an aerial she's most likely going for a tomahawk. Just react to this and jump > Fair. The crux of the whole match-up in neutral is forcing her to approach and abusing her weaknesses (which are often centered around her approach) to the fullest.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

What Tree said. Needles everywhere. Zss can't do anything against them. Tether grab is also extremely laggy and if Zss is predictable with the stun gun to grab you can punish it with whatever you like. Just don't jump in face-first if Zamus is walling you out with Nair/Zair. Keep needling her until she's forced to approach and you should be fine. Challenging downB is a bad idea, don't do it and just wait it out/shield it and chase in the air when she bounces off of your shield.

 

[Smash4Hart]

1. Needles. All day. Needles rip up ZSS and then some. You shouldn't be running into them as the MU dictates that ZSS approaches you, not the other way around. Running shield also works though. Watch what she does after using the aerials. Does she go into shield? Just goes in for another aerial? Take note of her movements, and then run in shield > block aerial > drop shield > punish her landing option correctly.

2. This is pretty hard to punish. The first couple times she uses it you won't be able to do anything about it. Once she's done it though you'll know that its part of her repertoire. Take note, and adjust your on-stage position to stand where the arc of her down-b will end. She can angle where she lands, so be ready for variation, but try and cover every option. Punishing it with U-air is only for when you know where she's gonna land. Use F-air if you're not sure, as you can act quicker out of it leaving her less time for counter-retaliation.

3. Neutral with ZSS goes like this: Sheik needles her, ZSS has to approach. You mainly want to be wary of her aerial approaches. N-air can lead into grab, and falling U-air leads into more U-airs. You want to remain mobile, as ZSS probably has the most profitable punish game in the business. Shield her aerials and then punish. If she's near the ground after shorthopping and hasn't thrown out an aerial she's most likely going for a tomahawk. Just react to this and jump > Fair. The crux of the whole match-up in neutral is forcing her to approach and abusing her weaknesses (which are often centered around her approach) to the fullest.

Thank you! You seem very knowledgeable about the match up. Does any of this information change now with the addition of shield stun in the latest patch? also what number would you put on this matchup ? 5-5 ,6-4 ect.

 

[_Tree]

Honestly...I have no idea how the MU plays after the patch. It did only just come out after all. I'll have to play it a bunch to see how it affected shield approach. From what the patch entails...I'd say what I said earlier still applies, only that spaced F-airs should now take precedence over running shield. They're both still good options, but ZSS is now safer on shield. We still have the superior aerials though, so we should take advantage of that. I'll probably report back once I've played the MU a bit.

And the number I'd give this MU (from before the patch) is 6-4 Sheik favour. Sheik dominates overall, especially with her awesome neutral and great edgeguarding, but ZSS' insane punish game brings her back. Her lack of neutral options hurts her though.

 

[Smash4Hart]

Honestly...I have no idea how the MU plays after the patch. It did only just come out after all. I'll have to play it a bunch to see how it affected shield approach. From what the patch entails...I'd say what I said earlier still applies, only that spaced F-airs should now take precedence over running shield. They're both still good options, but ZSS is now safer on shield. We still have the superior aerials though, so we should take advantage of that. I'll probably report back once I've played the MU a bit.

And the number I'd give this MU (from before the patch) is 6-4 Sheik favour. Sheik dominates overall, especially with her awesome neutral and great edgeguarding, but ZSS' insane punish game brings her back. Her lack of neutral options hurts her though.

ok so on Thursday i played Officer Jenny in tournament ( a decent zss get top 8-5 at xandu normally) anyway what i noticed in our games
-bair seems in my shield seems more safe. I couldn't shield grab her even tho she baired in m face.
-nair is still shield grab-able.
-overall match up plays the same. I camped heavy bc she wouldn't approach. I actually timed her out 1 game and it came down to the last 10 seconds in another game. I dont think this would normally happen but we both just refused to approach.

Any comments on this?

 

[Metallinatus]

ok so on Thursday i played Officer Jenny in tournament ( a decent zss get top 8-5 at xandu normally) anyway what i noticed in our games
-bair seems in my shield seems more safe. I couldn't shield grab her even tho she baired in m face.
-nair is still shield grab-able.
-overall match up plays the same. I camped heavy bc she wouldn't approach. I actually timed her out 1 game and it came down to the last 10 seconds in another game. I dont think this would normally happen but we both just refused to approach.

Any comments on this?

My only comment is:
Rule #1 when fighting a character with better projectiles than yours (hugely better in this case): APPROACH!
Yeah, this would really normally not happen, because any ZSS refusing to approach a camping Sheik is just asking to lose.
ZSS's neutral is horrible, but getting camped by Needle Storm certainly doesn't win no one a match.... except the owner of the needles.

 

[David Viran]

-nair is still shield grab-able.

Nah, nair and bair are the same safety on shield, -3. She an potentially spot dodge a shield grab with both moves or jab before the grab comes out.

 

[Absol]

Have you considered run to spotdodging then? I normally like to do that against aerieals save on shield. Give or take though. The reason ZSS Nair is safe isn't the shield stun, but lack of lag.

The ZSS mu is really cut and dry. Are they charging a stun? Bouncing fish. Are they not approaching? Needle. Are they trying to grab? Spotdodge or crouch to get a decent punish. Are they jump backwards and trying to kill you? Crouch to make it harder to hit, and easier to power shield? Are they using Nair to approach? Stuff them with Fair hotboxes. 1 frame jab? Dtilt.

Like I'm surprised you didn't ask about her utilt. I get pissed off by it. And her up b out of shield but whatever

 

[Xanesane]

Hey guys Hart here with some question that i hope you guys can answer

-how do you deal with ZSS shff nair and bair camping? its safe on shield so im unsure how to punish it? Is charging needles the optimal way to deal with it?
-how do you guys punish ZSS down b in the air? I mean this when she uses it high in the air as an escape option after jumping from the ledge not an attack option is it really that safe? every time i try to punish with uair i either with or get hit with the attack hit box.
-how do you guys like to play the neutral against zss?

Well I have a ton of expirence in this my playing pulse iceman almost daily.
For the most part punishing bair and NAIR is nearly impossible your best option is to hit them with needels. The more your needels are charged the greater your punish will be. But when I fight zss I normaly read their short hop and punish with fair before they get the NAIR or fair out. The entire matchup is strictly reading your opponents short hop when fighting zss. Not only that i find crouch and down tilt a very safe way for pressure on shield. As zss only options are dash ATTACK Angels f tilt and down tilt. As they can't grab you unless they get you with tipperd grab. But when I'm in front of a zss shielding I just crouch and use down tilt repetedly.