Project M Recommended Ruleset

[Mc.Rad]

So where does the new Wario Stage and the Redesigned Bowser Castle lie on the Stage selection

 

[4tlas]

So where does the new Wario Stage and the Redesigned Bowser Castle lie on the Stage selection

The new Wario stage is identical to the old one, just different aesthetics. The alternate Bowser layout is cool, but I don't think it has a spot. The side platforms are at a height similar to Dreamland's, the middle platform is at a relative height to the others akin to Lylat, and there's a bump in the middle. I would prefer Bowser's to Distant Planet on this list, though. I would highly prefer Dreamland to Bowser's, however, and they feel like they fill the same niche.

 

[mimgrim]

I wuld prefer any stage over Distant Planet to be perfectly honest.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I wuld prefer any stage over Distant Planet to be perfectly honest.

That and Dialga Spear...


Its the Pokefloats of Brawl...

(Why are the bad stages in Brawl and Melee Pokemon ones?)

 

[mimgrim]

I'm specificaly referring to it in a competive sense on a stage list for tourney but ok.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I'm specificaly referring to it in a competive sense on a stage list for tourney but ok.

Both Tourney Wise and having fun in this game wise this stage is bad...
(I actually dont know why they brought this back though... I'm probably gonna mod it out...)

 

[Narpas_sword]

Keep the chat focused on the topic at hand please.

Warioland, as mentioned, replaces Warioware on the stage list. Warioware is now the Brawl original with minigames.
Bowsers castle is neat, and could be a contender to replace Yoshi Island Brawl in my mind.

What is everyones problem with Distant planet though?

 

[CORY]

Personally, I dislike how low the leaves drop and how quickly they subsequently spring back. Otherwise, I think it's a fine "larger" stage.

Might be interesting to make the side blastzones a lot closer in, bit that's a separate topic entirely.

 

[DMG]

DP as a stand-alone stage is probably fine. I think when PS2 and DP were both legal on starter list, that was the biggest joke. Competitively it's fine but most people considering DP just pick PS2 (and when they consider DP, it occasionally gets banned if Walls are the benefit)

Minorly outclassed, and the wall factor is diminished a bit since Delfino has come out. I'd consider shrinking the size (if considerations like changing top platform is entirely out of the question) where it's the medium offering somewhere between GHZ and Delfino (currently close to Delfino)

I'd be in favor of remaking Delfino slightly but the current design of moving platforms technically fits the flavor of Sunshine pretty well. Ideally it would probably be a better competitive stage without moving platforms (or more accurately, ones that move up and down)

 

[Narpas_sword]

DP as a stand-alone stage is probably fine. I think when PS2 and DP were both legal on starter list, that was the biggest joke. Competitively it's fine but most people considering DP just pick PS2 (and when they consider DP, it occasionally gets banned if Walls are the benefit)

Minorly outclassed, and the wall factor is diminished a bit since Delfino has come out. I'd consider shrinking the size (if considerations like changing top platform is entirely out of the question) where it's the medium offering somewhere between GHZ and Delfino (currently close to Delfino)

I'd be in favor of remaking Delfino slightly but the current design of moving platforms technically fits the flavor of Sunshine pretty well. Ideally it would probably be a better competitive stage without moving platforms (or more accurately, ones that move up and down)

Fair points, at least now it's a different sized stage to PS2 and also has a higher ceiling.

I still thinkNorfair is a good map, but too many people dislike it. I guess it gives some characters a hard time.

 

[DMG]

A less red Norfair with horizontal moving / shifting platforms may be good. Or if they continue to move vertically, have their highest position be lowered. Main concern is that without a lower platform to first jump up to, that Norfair platforms become similar to other stages top platforms (but this time without the help of lower platforms) and may be very disadvantageous for characters with poor vertical mobility. Can think of many TL matches on Norfair where bomb camping becomes very safe if the character isn't mobile or great at vertical re-positioning. That is the main concern: some plat shifts currently can help with this but it's not as consistent or reliable.

 

[mimgrim]

Despite the PMDT's effort to diffentriate DP and PS2 more, DP still just feels like PS2 2.0 walls addition. The Leaf platforms hardly make a difference and the few times they do come into the forray they get annoying.

My biggest gripe is having to waste 2 bans on what are, effectivly, the same stage.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Despite the PMDT's effort to diffentriate DP and PS2 more, DP still just feels like PS2 2.0 walls additio. The Leaf platforms hardly make a difference and the few times they do come into the forray they get annoying.

I'm biggest gripe is having to waste 2 bans on what are, effectivly, the same the stage basically.

As a samus, who is quite happy to go to either, I can see the concern.
The question is though, what other map can replace it?

DL is a possibility, but I still think it's far too big. It's a relic from melee and i feel it's only worth is "We're used to it"

Norfair other than too red (which means people will just use the sweet metroid lab skin) has Bf size blast zones (very slightly bigger) and a decent stage size. The concern being that it's easy to camp at the top with some characters.

Then there's Lylat, Skyworld, Runble falls, not mcuh to choose from that won't cause an instant 'WTF' from most people.

 

[Rawkobo]

Despite the PMDT's effort to diffentriate DP and PS2 more, DP still just feels like PS2 2.0 walls addition. The Leaf platforms hardly make a difference and the few times they do come into the forray they get annoying.

My biggest gripe is having to waste 2 bans on what are, effectivly, the same stage.

yeah. tbh i used to be a bigger supporter of dp as a stage, but with delfino's secret, that went out the window. there's not enough room on a stagelist of at most ten stages for a stage that's the same as another stage.

quick thing that's been on my mind and idk if anyone's said anything about it: any reason yi: brawl isn't on paragon's stagelist? totally realized the event was running nine stages, and i'm fine with it, but i was curious if anyone knew why.

 

[JOE!]

As a samus, who is quite happy to go to either, I can see the concern.
The question is though, what other map can replace it?

DL is a possibility, but I still think it's far too big. It's a relic from melee and i feel it's only worth is "We're used to it"

Norfair other than too red (which means people will just use the sweet metroid lab skin) has Bf size blast zones (very slightly bigger) and a decent stage size. The concern being that it's easy to camp at the top with some characters.

Then there's Lylat, Skyworld, Runble falls, not mcuh to choose from that won't cause an instant 'WTF' from most people.

Norfair also has a super low ceiling.

Rumble Falls I could actually see as legit and is essentially the only "reverse tri plat" stage

 

[Deleted member]

the real issue with norfair is that its just another FD that encourages CG spam (or ruins the idea of banning stages against that strategy) or raw camping.

similarly reverse tri plat stages just encourage movement canping well past acceptable limits imo. im quite glad to see the delfino secret got fixed in this regard.

 

[mimgrim]

I'm a Toon Link main so I really wouldn't mind Nofair.

I actually DL is a good choice for the niche it fills that other big, but smaller then DL still, don't quite fill. Making games last for a longer period of time (so the opposite of WW/WL where games tend to end really quick). But people seem to really hate that. So w/e.

Lylat is also a really good and unique chice but people be scrubbing out over the ledges. Hey maybe DP can be redeisigned to be more like Lylat then PS2 in terms of platform layout. Because the platform layout of Lylat is just really cool.

Lets just give Frigate Orpheon a static second phase (single stage with a small platform at the middle) and make Brawl Frigate the alt. Boom perfect stage right there.

 

[Rawkobo]

the real issue with norfair is that its just another FD that encourages CG spam (or ruins the idea of banning stages against that strategy) or raw camping.

similarly reverse tri plat stages just encourage movement canping well past acceptable limits imo. im quite glad to see the delfino secret got fixed in this regard.

i think @SOJ said he was going to work on norfair a bit following working on delfino's secret so that might not remain an issue

but we'll see

 

[Bazkip]

Lylat is also a really good and unique chice but people be scrubbing out over the ledges. Hey maybe DP can be redeisigned to be more like Lylat then PS2 in terms of platform layout. Because the platform layout of Lylat is just really cool.

We already have walled Lylat in the Bowser's Castle alt.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Keep the chat focused on the topic at hand please.

Warioland, as mentioned, replaces Warioware on the stage list. Warioware is now the Brawl original with minigames.
Bowsers castle is neat, and could be a contender to replace Yoshi Island Brawl in my mind.

What is everyones problem with Distant planet though?

Some People find it boring.
Although I can live with it, and *inert Dialga Spear rant here*

 

[mimgrim]

We already have walled Lylat in the Bowser's Castle alt.

Which will never probably never be made legal because of the alt status.

 

[Rawkobo]

Which will never probably never be made legal because of the alt status.

well if the alt were to, say, be flipped, would that change things?

mostly asking because people ask to go to melee battlefield a lot, so it seems like hitting the button combination for an alt isn't out of the question.

EDIT: to clarify what i mean by "be flipped," i mean that the current alt is now the main stage and the main stage with thwomps is now the alt.

 

[4tlas]

We already have walled Lylat in the Bowser's Castle alt.

The platforms are really high up in the Bowser's alt, I don't think they're the same at all. Its not just the configuration of platforms that makes Lylat unique, its the fact that they act like a ceiling for grounded players, shielding them from aerial options and projectiles.

 

[mimgrim]

If BC's alt and main stage were to be flipped then yea probably. Though I wouldn't really want to see that happen because I like the main version and the idea behind it better (That stage actually has a lot of potiential for being a great competitive stage because of how center stage is never quite the same but the lack of a platform of any kinds just makes it FD for the most part but a single platform the moves as the center of the stage changes could create a really cool competitive stage but people will hate it because of the Thwomps). But yea that would probably work.

And the thing about Melee BF and Brawl BF is that in PM the only difference between them is asethetics and nothing else making picking the alt a non-issure really as they are both the same stage exactly and only count as one stage.

 

[Bazkip]

I asked SOJ about it and he said that he intended for the alt to be the main stage for that slot but he ran out of time, so I'd expect it to be the main stage in future versions.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I asked SOJ about it and he said that he intended for the alt to be the main stage for that slot but he ran out of time, so I'd expect it to be the main stage in future versions.

That makes sense then...

 

[Narpas_sword]

So it looks like the rules at http://smashboards.com/rulesets/project-m/ got semi updated. (at least, warioland is correctly named, so something has changed)

i.e. a couple of stages were changed. But it looks a fair bit different to the rules discussed and agreed upon in the two long threads we had discussing it.

@ Warchamp7 , are we able to get the whole ruleset updated?

 

[Strong Badam]

Page also describes stages that players strike from as "neutrals" instead of "starters," pretty objective that that should be fixed.

 

[skellitorman]

I have been working on stages to solve the issues frequently being brought up, and to solidify the stage list.

So far it seems that most are in agreement with at least the following:

Starter / Counterpick:

1. GHZ / WL

2. BF / FoD

3. ? / FD

4. SV / ?

5. PS2 / ?

By properly addressing these last 3 stages: Norfair (or new stage. see description in next section), DS, DP, we should be left with a relatively solid list that most can agree with while also being a list that is completely unique. It will also solve some of the other issues such as stage size for starters and the YS/DL situation.

If anything, hopefully this stimulates discussion to improve the current stage situation.

I would have liked to see PM get another medium stage, that was different enough from BF/SV boundaries but still not really polarizing.

This has also been voiced by the local community, and I think the stage that was mentioned a few months back (but which hasn’t been implemented yet) would fit perfectly as the last starter. That stage would be the stage with a medium size and a single static platform in the middle of the stage (it was a Training Room mod that can be seen here: http://smashboards.com/threads/proposed-standardized-ruleset.393717/page-6#post-18739601 ).

I have modded my Norfair to match the description above (for research) and I have gotten only positive feedback from the community (Norfair already has significantly different boundaries than both Smashville and Battlefield while not being polarizing). Many that have tried the modded version of Norfair would like for it to be a starter over Delfino’s Secret.

This also solves the size problem you pointed out from the starter stages, (1 small/3 medium/1 big as opposed to 1 small /2 medium/2 big).

I'd be in favor of remaking Delfino slightly but the current design of moving platforms technically fits the flavor of Sunshine pretty well. Ideally it would probably be a better competitive stage without moving platforms (or more accurately, ones that move up and down)

The current design does fit the flavor of Sunshine, but as you said, it could be a better competitive stage, and so I propose the following to make it more competitive while maintaining its flavor:

Having the platforms only function based on a single transformation that is already currently implemented: There are only two platforms that are both at the same height and just move side to side.

Basically it would function like Smashville’s single moving platform but there are two of them that meet at the middle and then move to the ends of the stage and back (while never stopping just like SV's platform). If the platforms stayed like that, then it would still fit the flavor of the moving platforms while still being a much better competitive stage that is also significantly different than Smashville (larger size, has walls, different blastzones).

reverse tri plat stages just encourage movement canping well past acceptable limits imo.

I have actually modded the previous Delfino’s to have reverse static tri platforms (for research) and the results were less than desirable.

However, I think there is a way to avoid the problem that the reverse tri platforms bring and address a stage issue at the same time through its implementation. As Mimgrim recently pointed out, DP is too similar to PS2, and is unfortunately being left out of more and more stage lists as a result.

If the platforms are changed to reverse tri platforms but using the leaves as the two top platforms and the mushroom as the bottom middle platform, then the stage will become unique, without having the reverse tri platforms being significantly problematic (due to the movement of the leaves upon landing).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If all of this were to be implemented, then we are left with the following solid stage list:

Starter:

1. GHZ

2. Battlefield

3. New Norfair (platforms modified) OR New stage with those attributes mentioned.

4. Smashville

5. Pokemon Stadium


Counter Pick:

1. Warioland

2. Fountain of Dreams

3. Final Destination

4. New Delfino’s Secret (Platforms modified)

5. New Distant Planet (Platforms modified)

 

[Narpas_sword]

Norfair also has a super low ceiling.

Oh you're right, my apologies, i must have read the wrong line in the spreadsheet i have. was looking at Metal Caverns ceiling.

 

[Warchamp7]

So it looks like the rules at http://smashboards.com/rulesets/project-m/ got semi updated. (at least, warioland is correctly named, so something has changed)

i.e. a couple of stages were changed. But it looks a fair bit different to the rules discussed and agreed upon in the two long threads we had discussing it.

@ Warchamp7 , are we able to get the whole ruleset updated?

As was said, this thread is meant as a base ruleset. I worked off of that to make something a bit more complete and up to date.

The page is equipped to have multiple stage lists, if you can come up with handy names better than 'Stage List A' and 'Stage List B' that I could label the OPs list and the one I crafted

I updated Neutral to say Starter.

 

[Narpas_sword]

As was said, this thread is meant as a base ruleset. I worked off of that to make something a bit more complete and up to date.

The page is equipped to have multiple stage lists, if you can come up with handy names better than 'Stage List A' and 'Stage List B' that I could label the OPs list and the one I crafted

I updated Neutral to say Starter.

More than the stage list is the change in character / stage selection in CPs.

You could name one "Warchamps Ruleset"

and the other one

"Smashboards collaborated effort Ruleset"

 

[Warchamp7]

More than the stage list is the change in character / stage selection in CPs.

Which is dependeant on the number of stages ofc

You could name one "Warchamps Ruleset"

and the other one

"Smashboards collaborated effort Ruleset"

 

[Narpas_sword]

Never! I don't mock people.

One of the points that was discussed, I think in the topic prior to this one, was the confusion between striking a stage and banning one for a set.

The new rules strike for the next game only, then when it comes to the next game,
With the ability to strike after characters are chosen, it makes more sense than banning for a set, as you could essentially waste bans on a character, then leave all others open.

10 stages and 2 strikes should be ample. In a best of 5 that's still going to leave 6 stages to play on.

Personally I don't like the 'Dave stupid rule' i think people should just strike the stage their opponent won on.
But that's just me.

 

[eideeiit]

@ S skellitorman

Do we really need 10 stages? I really like your list but would rather have only the 5 starters and 2 CPs in Delphino's and either YS or WW.

 

[skellitorman]

Do we really need 10 stages? I really like your list but would rather have only the 5 starters and 2 CPs in Delphino's and either YS or WW.

We don’t need 10 stages, but the community wants 10 stages. So if we are to have 10 stages, then it would be best that those 10 stages are all meaningfully different (to avoid redundancy), but good enough to warrant its place on the list.

As you said, you really like my proposed list, and that’s what’s important (having a list that’s accepted by the community). It’s hard to make a list that’s “perfect” because everyone’s “perfect” list will be different. However, it’s very viable to come up with a really likable list or at least an acceptable one that most can agree with.

Having said this, the list would be better (more balanced) with having only 9 of those stages (that I proposed) while excluding DP (at least for singles).

 

[Strong Badam]

More than the stage list is the change in character / stage selection in CPs.

You could name one "Warchamps Ruleset"

and the other one

"Smashboards collaborated effort Ruleset"

I can't handle this post. Lmaoo roasted.

 

[Rawkobo]

As was said, this thread is meant as a base ruleset. I worked off of that to make something a bit more complete and up to date.

The page is equipped to have multiple stage lists, if you can come up with handy names better than 'Stage List A' and 'Stage List B' that I could label the OPs list and the one I crafted

I updated Neutral to say Starter.

weird, i thought all the base rulesets were using delfino's

and yet in this list, the stage is nowhere to be seen...

 

[MegaMissingno]

Personally I don't like the 'Dave stupid rule' i think people should just strike the stage their opponent won on.
But that's just me.

Well if you didn't strike it the first time, you probably won't spend a strike on it the second time either. Most of the time I would bet that you'll keep striking the same stages, barring a character switch that would make you choose differently. And then people would end up playing the same stage again and again.

That actually gives me a thought though, since we have a large enough stagelist to accomodate it, what if we replaced DSR with simply saying "You cannot play the same stage twice, period." Once a stage is played it's out of the pool for the rest of the set, gotta play on something different each time.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I don't understand the need to limit stages outside of the winner striking 2.