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Project M Recommended Ruleset

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
Sorry, but bans are exactly for preventing egregiously strong counterplay due to stages. Since those stages ARE necessary in OTHER matchups, you MUST include them in the list and then allow people to ban them when they are too extreme.

Norfair's platforms, when lowered (which they do on a cycle, so camping cannot continue forever), are not really circle camp material. And even if they are, the stage can be banned. As long as we have no more circle camp stages than bans, I don't see a concern. At least if we have stages that need to be banned, the *ability* to circle camp still provides a benefit in matchups without us all having to suffer through the actual camping.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Slippi.gg
DMG#931
There's a difference between strong gameplay and toxic. Needing to Ban FD because Marth dominates = appropriate stage ban usage. Needing to Ban Kongo 64 because your character cannot catch the opponent = toxic and evaluation needed on whether the stage should be legal (in the context of multiple chars / situations popping up, not just a tiny fraction of niche, irrelevant MU's)

Not entirely convinced how necessary DL or Norfair are for other MU's. Many of the non-toxic attributes can be found on other stages already (finding a stage about the length of DL or Norfair, or even longer, is already possible. Having a platform or two to help deal with ground monsters is feasible elsewhere, etc). The main effect stages like DL serve at this point is balance by eating up stage bans, however this is false balance in a sense. You don't really give characters a better shot at getting the stages in question, you just try to give maybe 1 extra ban while the opponent eats up his bans on say double DL Norfair combo.

May not really help say the Ness player who wants more space and non-toxic gameplay on DL/Norfair, and instead hurt his Ganondorf opponent who faces an extra ban when the stage count increased to 9 (9th stage may not be an extreme small place, could have been a medium like Lylat or Yoshi). Having "all" problem stages covered by stage bans may not be an achieveable equilibrium for both sides, don't think it would properly balance much at all if you went larger on stage list size and used stage bans for this balancing act.
 
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4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
Bans is probably suboptimal compared to pooled stages anyway.

And Kongo has that problem with a significant portion of the roster. Circle camping does not affect a significant portion of the roster, especially not to the degree required to circle camp on Norfair.
 

nimigoha

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
If people get fed up with having an imbalanced pool of stages to choose from and arguing about what's the best possible stagelist with what we have, and collectively decide (lol PM community collectively deciding anything) to alter stages to achieve better balance.

A big if.

I'd probably say something along the lines of take WL/SV/BF/YI/PS2 starters, GHZ/FoD/FD/DS CPs and tweak as needed.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Messages
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DMG#931
There's downsides to modding the stage list, but frankly many of the stages currently are sub-optimal. There's improvements to DP, DS, Metal Cavern, Norfair, and Lylat (just for starters) that 95% of the community would happily accept. Yet we're constantly stuck with lopsided starter lists, and a lack of well liked medium stages. There is no clever magic to rearrange the current list and fix things imo. You could go really small on amount of stages, but you might as well play Melee at that point if you only want 5-6 stages
 
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nimigoha

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
Tbh even just having the fixed Yoshi's Island would increase balance significantly.

I agree that there's no perfect balance solution here. IMO N9 was the closest there could be outside of BC having too many problems (and being a triplat TBH) Paragon is decent enough in that if it becomes the standard I don't think it will doom anything, but the starter imbalance will always be something that sits poorly with me.
 

Zach777

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
489
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3rd rock from the sun
Lol at this. Lets just take every tourney viable stage off brawlvault and stuff them into our stagelists. I counterpick you to Taboo boss fight stage.
 

Darth Shard

Dark Lord of the Smash Bros.
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
89
Location
Portland, OR
I'm still sad that neither Mewtwo2000 nor anyone else has been able to port Poke Floats yet. Last I heard his Mute City was still a WIP as well. No one has been able to figure out how to make Brinstar Depths rotate, either.
 

JesteRace

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 29, 2013
Messages
435
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Eye-Oh-Wah
Okay, so for the sake of argument in working-with-what-weve-gotsville, it seems that Dreamland is for the most part unacceptable as a competitive stage amongst a large portion of the community. This means there are no stages to properly balance out all the small attributes of Wario Land (or Yoshi's Story for that matter). Question to all of you: Does that matter? How much does numerical balance of attributes actually matter? Should Wario Land be nixed? Should we find another way to balance out all of its attributes? Or does balancing number of options (3 small, 3 large, etc.) and platform layouts matter more?
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
DL would just be replaced by DS for the most part. Some people vehemently oppose DS, but the majority would settle for DS.
 

JesteRace

Smash Journeyman
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The thing is, I'm not sure DS makes much sense as a "Dreamland replacement". There is much more platform interference making the stage way less open. The stage has a full wall and is wider. The blastzones are dramatically smaller. More reasonable, yes, but not big enough to balance out how small WL is. Honestly, GHZ/SV or FD/PS2 have far more in common than DL/DS lol. But the point is still this: Does any of this matter?
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
The gap difference at the extremeties probably matters less. It's fine if WL is like 50 units smaller than GHZ, while DS is only 20 bigger than say DP, because both stages would likely end up banned. With that said, it's much more likely for WL to be banned imo because the difference is so stark: a person might find DS barely bigger than some alternative and just accept it, but WL really sticks out and would be more prevalent on picks + bans.

That's WL arguably not being a great stage, and while I personally dislike it, I can't objectively prove there's something totally warped or toxic about it (way easier to prove on larger or roomy stages). I think DL and WL both get more gameplay than they should, but then again many people do entire sets on PS2 so I dunno what to think about how optimal players are at selecting stages.
 
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JesteRace

Smash Journeyman
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I'm inclined to agree. As long as the number of selectable options is equal, than the numerical "evenness" isn't super necessary. WL/FoD/GHZ and PS2/FD/DS may not be perfectly distributed in all categories, but there is still equality in the selectable options. 3 small, 3 big stages. 3 low, 3 high ceilings. Honestly, right now, my ideal stagelist is looking like this:

Starters:

Wario Land
Smashville
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino's Secret

Counterpicks:

Green Hill Zone
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination

1 ban in all sets, normal DSR

That's where my money is at until y'all find a way to make custom stages a reality somehow lol
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
Well I immediately polled my scene as soon as I concluded that Sky Sanctuary Zone might be worth the effort. So far, almost everyone is willing to play on it and almost everyone is willing to put it on their build. Fortunately, the venue itself has enough setups that I could just include things on the official build and we'd have enough setups for tournament...

So I'll let you know if it works out. Might also grab that flat Yoshi's Island while I'm at it.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
flat, plat flat, no support ghost

most popular mod of yoshi out there
 
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nimigoha

Smash Ace
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Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
What niche does SSZ fill though? Why's it better than modded Yoshi's replacing BoC in N9, for example?
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
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Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
I would like flat, moving platform, with blargwitches if such a thing exists.
 

JesteRace

Smash Journeyman
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Yeah, idk why the platform rotating on YI is a problem. Maybe lessen the angles, but keeping it rotating would add to its neutrality imo. I also don't think the support ghosts are problematic, but I don't care if they're gone either. Pretty much just flatten the main stage and get rid of shy guys and the stage is godlike.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
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Messages
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I like the fly guys. They give people a window to approach projectile campers. They seem to float down slowly too, so you shouldn't be caught unprepared.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
I'd like to see YB with the removal of ghosts / fly guy, no preference on the platform, and the mainstage mostly flat while retaining the slopes at the very edges. Maybe lessen the degree of the slope, but retain it nonetheless
 
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Kneato

Totoro Joe
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
395
Alright, I've been out for a while.

What is the current stance on this list:

Starters: GHZ SV BF PS2 DS
CP: WW FoD BoC FD
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
Alright, I've been out for a while.

What is the current stance on this list:

Starters: GHZ SV BF PS2 DS
CP: WW FoD BoC FD
2 of the biggest stages as starters balanced with an only slightly small stage?

Otherwise not the worst list I've seen =)
 

JesteRace

Smash Journeyman
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DS isn't really that big. In theory, GHZ and DS would perfectly balance each other out, but PS2 throws that balance off. Hence why Nebraska and Michigan (that I know of) run Wario Land over GHZ to balance out PS2/DS. It's not perfect, but it works. The Counterpicks are identical to what Nebraska is doing right now(Michigan uses Dreamland over Bowser's).
 
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nimigoha

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
Not sure what the point of moving BC to a CP is since it leaves the starters imbalanced.

IMO if any stagelist is going to incorporate BC then it might as well just run N9, since BC is the only problem in N9 so once you're past that, you just accept it.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Depends on whether BC has visual mods or not. BC with chains does not seem worthy
 

JesteRace

Smash Journeyman
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Not sure what the point of moving BC to a CP is since it leaves the starters imbalanced.

IMO if any stagelist is going to incorporate BC then it might as well just run N9, since BC is the only problem in N9 so once you're past that, you just accept it.
The point is that, given the many problems with it, Bowser's Castle is waaaaay easier to defend as a counterpick than as a starter. Keeping it on the list maintains overall balance of 3/3/3. Sure, starters aren't super balanced without it, but you gotta take what you can get. Since we replaced BC with the bigger Delfino, we replaced GHZ with the smaller WL. Idk, I think it works.
 

nimigoha

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
Yeah I can understand it, I think starter balance is arguably more important than overall list balance, looking at how often the winner of game 1 wins the set, but oh well.

Kneato Kneato will it be Character First?
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
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Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
BC is not the only problem with N9, the sheer amount of open space overall is a problem too. Layouts are not balanced on the N9, as great as the blastzones are.
 

Bazkip

Smash Master
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Dec 15, 2013
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3,136
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Canada
DS isn't really that big. In theory, GHZ and DS would perfectly balance each other out, but PS2 throws that balance off. Hence why Nebraska and Michigan (that I know of) run Wario Land over GHZ to balance out PS2/DS. It's not perfect, but it works. The Counterpicks are identical to what Nebraska is doing right now(Michigan uses Dreamland over Bowser's).
How does that balance it out at all? It only takes one ban to get rid of the small stage, but two are required to get rid of the bigger stages. That's a blatant imbalance.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
How does that balance it out at all? It only takes one ban to get rid of the small stage, but two are required to get rid of the bigger stages. That's a blatant imbalance.
Assuming that the big stages are only slightly big (which they aren't), then even if it takes only 1 ban to remove the small stage, you still on average end up with an acceptably medium stage.

This principle is how I've balanced PS2 by putting GHZ and FoD as starters. Yes, it only takes 1 ban to get rid of the huge stage, but a) the small stages aren't so small they make people suffer and b) the layout of PS2 is so neutral that many people still don't want to ban it just for its size.

This principle does not work on the list we are currently discussing, but I just wanted to mention it.
 

Sabre

Smash Apprentice
Writing Team
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Feb 8, 2015
Messages
84
Hey everyone, I kinda forgot that there was a thread on this, but I did some research on stagelists out of my own curiosity, and can give kinda the statistical end of this stuff for you guys.

List suggested directly above above: The starters aren't super well balanced, because they are biased towards large blast zones on both the sides and the top, as well as towards longer stages. There are two walls of the 5 stages, which is standard for all the stagelists I've reviewed. It's possible to balance out the size zones better, but I've yet to see a list that is able to successfully balance the top zones and length better than average. The overall list is actually very well balanced, barring a slight bias towards big side zones(4 big, 2 medium and 3 small), but the starters aren't that well balanced and bowsers brings its own set of problems that I'm sure you're all familiar with. Statistically this list works out about the same as the paragon list(a little better on balancing the top zones on the full list, but otherwise basically identical).

The best list that I've seen currently in use(based on how well it's mathematically balanced) is the norcal list, which is just paragon but with dreamland as a starter and delfinos as a counterpick. Of course this doesn't alleviate many of the issues listed above, and creates even wider average blast zones among the starters, but it does help to better balance the stage length among starters, so that's something.

Based on going through a ridiculous amount of stage combinations, here's the list that I'd personally favor(take that as you will).
Starters: Green Hill Zone(or Fountain of Dreams if you prefer, the only difference is a far longer bottom blast zone and a middle platform rather than a triplat), Smashville, Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium and Distant Planet.
Counterpicks: Final Destination, Fountain of Dreams(or Green Hill if you swapped the two), and Wario Land.

Admittedly a bit of an odd list, so let me explain why the numbers worked out that way. As mentioned above, virtually every stage list is skewed towards longer stages with high ceilings, and this is no exception, but it is less extreme. The use of DP as the "big" stage means a smaller ,although still large, ceiling, which helps to offset the fact that there is only one starter with a notably low ceiling. The side blast zones are actually statistically perfectly balanced, with one small and one large stage(GHZ and Battlefield respectively), and the rest being relatively average. There is an average mixture of walls and platform configurations, although admittedly there is a concern with the stages still being longer than average, this is no different than with any other combination of starters that I've seen.
The reason for excluding both Dreamland and Delfinos is to avoid having the stagelist skewed towards large stages, which as you've all noted above, is the tendency in many stagelists. Instead, when you take the entire list into consideration, you have a balanced mixture of top, side and bottom blast zones, walls, platform configurations, stage lengths, etc. The balcony is actually running a very similar list tonight, with the addition of Delfinos as a counterpick, so hopefully that can provide some feedback on how this may work(although with a smaller list overall without delfinos).

This is all based on the stage data that's available here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LJ2IRbVIcEYajsqt95JMQOPKKpsqfDzo5ZgfJvbdlg4/edit#gid=0


My apologies for such a long post. I didn't mean to write this much, but I've been thinking about it for awhile, and wanted to explain my thought process after the work I've done, so I hope it's useful to you all.
 
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4tlas

Smash Lord
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Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, since Distant Planet is basically just a larger PS2, and PS2 is already the 2nd biggest stage in the game.

No matter how the statistics work out, there is absolutely no way I can advocate for including PS2 and DP on the same stagelist. Its like putting both PS2 and PS1 on the same list, but at least there's no transformations.
 

Sabre

Smash Apprentice
Writing Team
Joined
Feb 8, 2015
Messages
84
Again, entirely math-based. Distant planet is actually less long than PS2 by a little bit, and there are other notable differences between the two. Aside from the length, which is the most similar characteristic, the two stages are actually quite different in some important ways that change who would want to go there. The two stages are similar in the same way that battlefield and dreamland are similar: side blast zones(both medium in this case), general platform configuration(a little less so actually) and stage length, nothing more.

-Higher platform heights(which benefits characters who reach through platforms like marth, not a big deal but worth noting).

-4 platforms instead of two(and 2 that somewhat move), which may benefit characters who have a combo game that works well with platforms like DK.

-Walls that go all the way to the bottom, which of course benefits wall-jump characters like mario or zss, and also means there aren't the issues of getting caught underneath the lip of pokemon with some recoveries.

-Of course, the biggest change is the switch between the lowest ceiling among the starters and the highest(technically, but basically same as GHZ). Having another long starting stage that also doesn't have extremely small ceilings is important because of how much ceiling height is a dominating characteristic of who goes to pokemon. This means that instead of having to always have low blast zones when you want a long starter to run around on, you can actually choose what fits you more.
 
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