Project M Recommended Ruleset

[4tlas]

Well, it'd be easier if people weren't so stubborn about the "standard" 3. This is why we're going with Bowser's Castle as a neutral in my state. It seems like the only way to have a semblance of a balanced game 1 process with what's available imo.

I think the problem with stubbornness about the "standard" 3 is that they think that they are also the "average" 3. PS2 is massive. That is the big stage in starters, but people don't think of it that way and we end up with 2 big starters in most stagelists.

 

[JesteRace]

Oh yeah, definitely, I agree. PS2 is the problem here. Is it a good neutral? Absolutely. Is it close enough to BF and SV to be classified as "medium"? Dear Jesus, no.

 

[DMG]

I don't blame them for being stubborn: many of the offerings are not stages you'd want to leap into the starter category. If you asked people to decide between PS2, or any of Yoshi Brawl / Norfair / Lylat / Castle Siege, the answer seems obvious despite the possible skewing.

 

[JesteRace]

I don't blame them for being stubborn: many of the offerings are not stages you'd want to leap into the starter category. If you asked people to decide between PS2, or any of Yoshi Brawl / Norfair / Lylat / Castle Siege, the answer seems obvious despite the possible skewing.

Well, yeah, but that's what I'm saying. PS2 doesn't have to be replaced, Delfino does.

 

[nimigoha]

Well, yeah, but that's what I'm saying. PS2 doesn't have to be replaced, Delfino does.

As a starter? I agree. Don't mind it as a counterpick but if we're keeping PS2 as a starter as it 100% should be, we need to shift Delfino away from starter.

I wish there was a small stage with large/medium blast zones. That's one of my favourite alterations of Kneato's stage pack.

Also OP is still 7 minutes, this hasn't been reflected in 3.6 default settings, not sure if that's been decided on or what. @Umbreon ? Also please add Warioman to the Gigabowser clause.

 

[Deleted member]

As a starter? I agree. Don't mind it as a counterpick but if we're keeping PS2 as a starter as it 100% should be, we need to shift Delfino away from starter.

I wish there was a small stage with large/medium blast zones. That's one of my favourite alterations of Kneato's stage pack.

Also OP is still 7 minutes, this hasn't been reflected in 3.6 default settings, not sure if that's been decided on or what. @Umbreon ? Also please add Warioman to the Gigabowser clause.

we have some DT work to do before i can meaningfully edit the rules set. as for 7 vs 8 minutes, the difference is negligible for now. the idea before was to lower the time limit to be more accommodating to multiple smash events, but since esports is horrible and PM is removed from larger melee tournaments, playing 8 still is perfectly fine.

 

[Lex__]

I would love to see sky sanctuary to be legal on the spot of YI:B IMO perfect blastzones, nice platforms its just kinda perfect, going to make a post about it soon in /r/ssbpm.

 

[nimigoha]

So many weeklies on hitbox.

So many bad stagelists.

So much large stage skew.

 

[Deleted member]

ok so basically i have enough information to conclude where the rule set should go. imo given that, for now, it should stay the same. since the 3.6 standard has the timer set to 8 minutes, i'm going to update the OP to reflect that. however, the rest of the rule set remains unchanged for the time being.

 

[nimigoha]

ok so basically i have enough information to conclude where the rule set should go. imo given that, for now, it should stay the same. since the 3.6 standard has the timer set to 8 minutes, i'm going to update the OP to reflect that. however, the rest of the rule set remains unchanged for the time being.

Warioman new main.

 

[DMG]

Anyone who actually tries to play Warioman or Gigabowser in tourney should get throw out of like, life

 

[CORY]

too bad you can't throw gigabowser.

 

[nimigoha]

Thoughts on a 6 stage list? 3 starters, 3 counterpicks. 1 ban.

Modified blast zones to be more "balanced" or "even" or whatever you want to say.

A/B means a halfway point between A and B, not one or the other. Suggested stages and their modifications in brackets.

Starters:
Small stage Medium/Large blast zones. (Green Hill Zone, increased side BZ, slightly decreased top BZ))
Medium stage Medium/Large blast zones. (Battlefield, BZ are pretty good as is)
Large stage Medium/Large blast zones. (PS2, increased BZ)

CPs:
Small stage Small/Medium blast zones. (Warioland, increase BZ)
Medium stage Small/Medium blast zones. (Smashville, decrease BZ)
Large stage Small/Medium blast zones. (Final Destination, decrease BZ)

The idea is to give something to characters like Bowser and Ganondorf (and other characters with similar issues) that are usually cited as having trouble on large stages and are always blocked from going to their small stages because right now small stages means small blast zones so they're even more oppressive.

So if you don't want to give Bowser his best stage (WL) you can ban it, but he still gets to go to GHZ if he wants and you're not going to die at 50 because the blast zones aren't stupidly small.

Conversely, on your CP, Bowser gets to ban whichever stage he doesn't want (FD or PS2 depending on matchup I guess) and you aren't completely blocked from taking him to a large stage.

This is basically a compressed version of Kneato 's modified stagelist.

INB4 "PM has so many stages why are you only using 6?"

I think that just because we can doesn't mean it's the best option for the cast and their balance. The current recommended stagelist is skewed towards larger stages which give an even bigger advantage towards fast DD-based characters.

I dunno, something I came up with this morning. Thought it was concise. Wanted some discussion. Feedback please. Any glaring problems outside of stage diversity? It's like Melee's stagelist but with more balance and fewer freaking triplats.

Also fun tidbit; no repetition of platform layouts. Which I guess means that your opponent can outright ban the one stage with the platform layout you want but they can do that with the current system outside of triplats.

 

[Eisen]

As much as I like my stages, I like how streamlined and intuitive the list is. I wish GHZ's platform didn't have the circular movement pattern in that list though. I'd just like something a little more reliable on a starter. Maybe instead it could arc upward, going from the left to the right and staying on each side for a few moments before going back? That way it acts like BF/DL-esque platforms temporarily for one side. Also, it'd start in the middle. I'd also like to see PS2's platforms a little bigger/wider so that they're more important for movement. Gives bigger characters less of a disadvantage if FD is banned and PS2 gets picked.

Most importantly I like the small/medium/large format. It seems like a nice idea.

 

[Strong Badam]

Thoughts on a 6 stage list? 3 starters, 3 counterpicks. 1 ban.

i stopped playing melee for a lot of reasons, but only 6 stages was definitely one of them. there are 9 stages in the game that there is absolutely no reason to ban them, and others that are borderline.

 

[JesteRace]

Most of the stagelists I've been seeing would almost be okay if PS2 was a medium stage. But, like... it's not. So can we get with the program? Can we stop having both PS2 and DL/DS as neutrals? Can we balance our stagelists around PS2 being a large stage? Please?

Anyways, I know Bowser's Castle is under great debate for even being legal, let alone neutral, but we need to have SOME medium stage added to neutrals. The universal neutrals are Smashville, Battlefield, and PS2. Green Hill Zone balances out PS2 just fine. But with S/M/M/L the only size stage you can add and still have balanced neutrals is Medium.

If there are no good options for Medium stages to add, then a less preferable option is to run S/S/M/L/L. But then you have to move Smashville or Battlefield to CP, which NO ONE will ever go for.

 

[nimigoha]

i stopped playing melee for a lot of reasons, but only 6 stages was definitely one of them. there are 9 stages in the game that there is absolutely no reason to ban them, and others that are borderline.

True. How much of that was because 4/6 are triplats though? The stages in Melee are very monotonous outside of PS1 which is stupid and FD which is less stupid but still at least dumb.

I agree that there's some left out of my list where there's no reason to remove them other than "I want 6 stages" since they're good stages. Not sure what your exact opinion of the 9 absolute ones are but I'd say Delfino, FoD, Bowser's, and Yoshi's are in and around there.

It's more of looking at the attributes I want in a stagelist and then scaling up the numbers, then realizing it gets more difficult with more stages. My opinion is that with the stages we have currently with their blast zones, we can't form a stagelist where the attributes are balanced evenly. Small stages all having small horizontal blast zones is like the biggest culprit and is the reason why people try to keep as few as possible and build their lists to skew towards large stages; because they don't want to die to Wizard's Foot at 35% with bad DI, despite Ganon struggling way more on larger stages.

So I think it's easier to "stomach", I guess, altering fewer stages.

I'm not really sure why Kneato's modified list hasn't gained more traction since it addresses the distribution of blast zones quite well.

It's a dilemma for me. People want a balanced list, but don't want to change blast zones because it's too different, but I believe a balanced list can't exist with what we have at the moment. The recommended stagelist is skewed towards larger stages which favour DD heavy characters who comprise of most of the usually quoted "top tier" characters already.

Most of the stagelists I've been seeing would almost be okay if PS2 was a medium stage. But, like... it's not. So can we get with the program? Can we stop having both PS2 and DL/DS as neutrals? Can we balance our stagelists around PS2 being a large stage? Please?

Anyways, I know Bowser's Castle is under great debate for even being legal, let alone neutral, but we need to have SOME medium stage added to neutrals. The universal neutrals are Smashville, Battlefield, and PS2. Green Hill Zone balances out PS2 just fine. But with S/M/M/L the only size stage you can add and still have balanced neutrals is Medium.

If there are no good options for Medium stages to add, then a less preferable option is to run S/S/M/L/L. But then you have to move Smashville or Battlefield to CP, which NO ONE will ever go for.

Yeah people are really surprised when I tell them PS2 is a large stage. If the official build had it further right this would actually be understood better. The PS2 misconception contributes a lot to the general large skew IMO.

I like Bowser's but I don't think it should be a starter with BF because they're still quite similar. Maybe if the blast zones on the 5 starters were altered.

Yeah my 6 stage list has SV as a CP but I agree, that alone might be the most difficult thing to convince people of.

 

[4tlas]

I would strongly recommend against having 1/2 of the stagelist being FD or FD-like.

I also think there are just too few stages in a 6-stage list to possibly have a balanced cast on.

 

[DMG]

3 starter list is hard to balance for striking power. The person who has to go first is inherently at a disadvantage since strikes can't be staggered in a fair way. You'd have to come up with double blind strikes / some convoluted process, or accept the disadvantage that the first person will face.

Also not a fan of starter lists where majority of stages fall outside medium. For many MU's, this simply leads to both sides striking the same stages on opposite sides of the spectrum and falling to the 1 medium choice over and over. I think if the balance was something like 1/3/1, there might inherently be more variation since you actually have to take into consideration factors besides "Oh it's large/small, let me strike all stages like this". What's more favorable to your character: BF SV or x 3rd medium? What's less favorable? Do I want a medium stage with lower ceiling, a wall, or some kind of platform configuration? Etc

I'd rather see that come to light, than "Well I struck 2 L, he struck 2 S, hello Battlefield my dear friend" or even "lol ps2=medium huehuehue"


I'm not concerned with normalizing blast zones. I'd focus more on normalizing stage sizes, possibly normalizing symmetry or terrain slopes as well (although I think stuff like Metal Cavern would be more accepted if it were merely symmetrical. Same with Yoshi if it had no ghosts).

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah that's a good point. I see that happening especially with characters that struggle with big stages. No Bowser or Ganon is going to strike to PS2 in my list unless they know they're gonna stomp the opponent, and no opponent would strike to GHZ against them unless they know they're gonna body them anyway. Seems like BF will be the middle ground 99 times out of 100.

Staggered bans also good point.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I like starter set of SMMML because even if they're banning the extremes there's at least a range of middle ground, good observation.

I like Kneato's modified list a lot, have been playing on it for a month. I only suggested this because no one seems to talk about this anymore. Has literally anyone else played it?

 

[JesteRace]

I agree, DMG. I was merely highlighting the fact that 2/1/2 could never work. It has to be 1/3/1. The full stagelist Nebraska started running is as follows:

Starters:
Green Hill Zone
Smashville
Battlefield
Bowser's Castle
Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpicks:
Wario Land
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Dreamland

I know a lot of people don't like Dreamland, so you can just substitute it for Delfino's Secret and the stagelist would have the same balance.

You get 3 small stages (GHZ/WL/FOD)
You get 3 medium stages (SV/BF/BC)
You get 3 large stages (PS2/FD/DL)

You get 3 low ceilings (WL/PS2/FD)
You get 3 medium ceilings (BC/SV/BF)
You get 3 high ceilings (FOD/GHZ/DL)

You get 3 small BZ's (WL/GHZ/FOD)
You get 3 medium BZ's (SV/PS2/BF)
You get 3 large BZ's (FD/BC/DL)

This is far from perfect, but as we've established, that's just not possible atm.

 

[Kulprit]

I originally posted my scene's stagelist in its own post and someone suggested that I post it in there. So here it goes:

Hey there, Smashboards! Kulprit here. I'm a TO in Nebraska that's part of a committee dedicated to perfect a stagelist for PM and have it advertised to be the most optimized stagelist to date and would love to see it as a national standard, since the scene is currently lacking that. Without further ado, here's the full-fleshed analysis! :

The PM Stagelist Committee for Nebraska would like to present the changes that have been made to the NE stagelist. The committee consists of myself, Jester, Satisfyler, j000p, and Dr. Dank, all TOs in the eastern Nebraska PM scene.

First, I would like to highlight our current stagelist and the current flaws in it:

Current PM Singles Stagelist: (3 bans, 2 in 3/5)

Starters:
Green Hill Zone
Smashville
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 2
Dreamland

Counterpicks:
Yoshi’s Story
Wario Land
Fountain of Dreams
Bowser’s Castle (Alt.)
Final Destination

Small stages: 4
Medium stages: 3
Large stages: 3

The main issue right now is if a character favors a small stage after Game 1, the opponent can only ban 3, which makes that person think about their bans more critically. But the issue lies in having only 3 large stages. The other person can just ban all 3 large stages and not have to think much about it. This is the biggest flaw in the list, which was the point we tackled right away in the revised list.

The other issue with the stagelist was the biggest stage in the entire game (tourney legal) being a starter. The platforms and base stage are very neutral, but the stage size and blastzones are far too big for it to be a starter. This was also addressed in the revised list.

Now the overarching goal of our stagelist is to emphasize the banning process and make players think more critically about their bans. How is this accomplished, you may ask?

- For each stage size there is 1 more of that size than bans available. So in math terms, each stage size has n+1 of them available.
- Banning stages that create either too much unfair of an advantage to be considered legal. Stages that are also generally disliked in the scene will also be more likely banned.
- Stages with unique layouts that provide more to the banning process will be favored over repeat stage layouts or stage blastzones, etc.

Addressing these main concerns, we wanted to prioritize the following questions about optimizing the stagelist:

- Do we run Dreamland or Delfino’s Secret as a starter? Possibly neither?
- Do we run Yoshi’s Story or Wario Land on the list? Possibly both?
- How can we balance the stage sizes and blastzone sizes to create the most balanced stagelist than we can have?
- Is there enough variety within the stages to create specific uses for the stages?
- Does the stagelist overall meet our overarching goal?

With our requirements laid out, here’s the revised stagelist:

PM Singles Stagelist (2 bans, 1 in 3/5):

Starters:
Green Hill Zone
Smashville
Battlefield
Bowser’s Castle (Alt.)
Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpicks:
Wario Land
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Dreamland

Changes from the current stagelist to revised list:

- Removed Yoshi’s Story
- Moved Dreamland from a starter to a counterpick
- Moved Bowser’s Castle from a counter to a starter
- Went from 3 bans to 2 bans (from 2 bans to 1 in 3/5)

In picture #2, you can see that the 5 starters are the middle 5 stages in terms of sizes, including 1 Small-Med, 3 Medium, and 1 Large. The counterpicks consist of 1 Small, 1 Small-Med, and 2 Large. Which means that there are 3 Small, 3 Medium, and 3 Large stages in total. The n+1 equation still applies, as the number of bans has been reduced to 2.

The doubles stagelist has been slightly tweaked to be the following:

PM Doubles Stagelist (2 bans, 1 in 3/5):

Starters:
Smashville
Battlefield
Bowser’s Castle (Alt.)
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino’s Secret

Counterpicks:
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Dreamland

The only change made was switching Bowser’s Castle with Dreamland for the same reason as in singles; it’s the biggest stage legal and makes sense as a counterpick due to that. For the most part, there wasn’t much critiquing that needed to be done with what we had already.

The changes will be effective starting now, and the first tournament running the new ruleset will be the CSP weekly in Columbus on Saturday, November 21st. We hope you all enjoy the new changes and use your counterpicks wisely in tournament!

- HSC|Kulprit

Sources:
https://docs.google.com/…/1LJ2IRbVIcEYajsqt95JMQOPKKp…/edit… (Google Doc showing all the raw data for any of the tourney legal stages in the past or current)
http://www.mediafire.com/…/k231fwv4w3gc6wp/StageGuide1_1.zip (mostly used as a visual aid, but the numbers are also useful)

EDIT: Forgot to add some other thoughts on the matter.

Yoshi's VS Wario Land
The main reason why we removed Yoshi's was because it interferes with tether grabs and the platform layout isn't the most intuitive ever. Nebraska actually prefers Yoshi's more since we have a more Melee-centric scene, but Wario Land brough more unique traits to the table than Yoshi's did.
Dreamland vs Delfino
Delfino's is basically a slightly smaller Dreamland and the platforms are really funky, so we run Dreamland instead of Delfino. it also has the wall that goes all the way to the bottom & has a really low bottom, so it gave some characters too much advantage.

If you want us to elaborate further on these 2 choices, just let me know.

 

[Kulprit]

Also just realized that JesteRace above me posted our Nebraska list lol oops. I guess my analysis is appreciated.

 

[nimigoha]

Dreamland is still too much a stupid outlier, and its platform layout is boring compared to Delfino.

Also you lump "blastzones" all together despite some stages being very different vertically and horizontally, e.g. GHZ having a huge ceiling and small sides.

That being said it's a pretty good list if you swap DL with DS. One of the best I can see with what is currently in the game. BF and BC being starters together is a little iffy due to the similar platform layouts and size, but it's not a big deal.

"it also has the wall that goes all the way to the bottom & has a really low bottom, so it gave some characters too much advantage."

This can be countered with "it also has a ridiculously huge outlier ceiling and stage to side, so it gave some characters too much advantage" for Dreamland.

 

[4tlas]

I believe I already gave feedback on Reddit. As I said, PS2 Dreamland FD are your big stages, but they are also the biggest stages (besides DP) in the whole game. Seems skewed to me. The stagelist as a whole has a lot of open space as well.

 

[JesteRace]

I believe I already gave feedback on Reddit. As I said, PS2 Dreamland FD are your big stages, but they are also the biggest stages (besides DP) in the whole game. Seems skewed to me. The stagelist as a whole has a lot of open space as well.

And Wario Land, FoD, and GHZ are our small stages, and are also the smallest stages in the game (besides Yoshi's Story). 3 small, 3 large. Where's the skew?

nimigoha I agree describing GHZ as "Small stage, Large BZ" is a little clunky, but if you look at my description of our stagelist, the blastzone and ceiling sizes are all still fairly balanced. Again, as balanced as it can be.

 

[4tlas]

And Wario Land, FoD, and GHZ are our small stages, and are also the smallest stages in the game (besides Yoshi's Story). 3 small, 3 large. Where's the skew?

The smallest stages in the game are not as small as the biggest stages are big. If they were equal from the "medium" stage, the big stages would be smaller than PS2.

Also my point of "besides DP" was that DP should probably already be excluded just on merit of being near identical to PS2, so these are essentially the 3 biggest, whereas Yoshi's Story should be considered and thus leaving it out is notable when referring to the sizes of the other stages included.

 

[JesteRace]

Maybe the stage widths don't make a PERFECT distribution but you take what you can get. PS2 is 187.5. Wario Land is 108.4. Average between the two is 147.95. That's not that much off from the medium stages.

 

[Kneato]

I agree, DMG. I was merely highlighting the fact that 2/1/2 could never work. It has to be 1/3/1. The full stagelist Nebraska started running is as follows:

Starters:
Green Hill Zone
Smashville
Battlefield
Bowser's Castle
Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpicks:
Wario Land
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Dreamland

I know a lot of people don't like Dreamland, so you can just substitute it for Delfino's Secret and the stagelist would have the same balance.

You get 3 small stages (GHZ/WL/FOD)
You get 3 medium stages (SV/BF/BC)
You get 3 large stages (PS2/FD/DL)

You get 3 low ceilings (WL/PS2/FD)
You get 3 medium ceilings (BC/SV/BF)
You get 3 high ceilings (FOD/GHZ/DL)

You get 3 small BZ's (WL/GHZ/FOD)
You get 3 medium BZ's (SV/PS2/BF)
You get 3 large BZ's (FD/BC/DL)

This is far from perfect, but as we've established, that's just not possible atm.

I posted in Kulprit 's original thread my analysis of the stagelist. I like it a lot, its better than what a lot of regions are running. Your summary of the stagelist differs from mine only because I consider BF to have Wide and Tall blastzones (albeit they would be on the smallest end of the "large" category).

M̶y̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶u̶g̶g̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶D̶L̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶D̶S̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶N̶o̶r̶f̶a̶i̶r̶.̶ ̶A̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶b̶o̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶o̶p̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶.̶ ̶H̶o̶w̶e̶v̶e̶r̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶w̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶a̶l̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶s̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶b̶i̶t̶ ̶(̶D̶S̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶n̶a̶r̶r̶o̶w̶ ̶B̶Z̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶N̶o̶r̶f̶a̶i̶r̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶b̶o̶t̶h̶ ̶n̶a̶r̶r̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶r̶t̶ ̶B̶Z̶'̶s̶)̶.̶

You know what, **** it. Yea I don't like Dreamland, and a lot of PM players don't either, but right now, its the best option for the best stagelist I've yet seen.

...BF and BC being starters together is a little iffy due to the similar platform layouts and size, but it's not a big deal...

They are both tri-plats but the similarities end there. One is walled the other isn't. BoC has massive side BZ's and a short ceiling. BF is also not as wide. I think they can coexist as starters. Hell, people were ok with PS2 and DP being in the same list at one point.

 

[JesteRace]

I posted in Kulprit 's original thread my analysis of the stagelist. I like it a lot, its better than what a lot of regions are running. Your summary of the stagelist differs from mine only because I consider BF to have Wide and Tall blastzones (albeit they would be on the smallest end of the "large" category).

M̶y̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶u̶g̶g̶e̶s̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶D̶L̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶D̶S̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶N̶o̶r̶f̶a̶i̶r̶.̶ ̶A̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶s̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶b̶o̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶o̶p̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶.̶ ̶H̶o̶w̶e̶v̶e̶r̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶w̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶a̶l̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶s̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶b̶i̶t̶ ̶(̶D̶S̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶n̶a̶r̶r̶o̶w̶ ̶B̶Z̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶N̶o̶r̶f̶a̶i̶r̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶b̶o̶t̶h̶ ̶n̶a̶r̶r̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶r̶t̶ ̶B̶Z̶'̶s̶)̶.̶

You know what, **** it. Yea I don't like Dreamland, and a lot of PM players don't either, but right now, its the best option for the best stagelist I've yet seen.

View attachment 85598

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They are both tri-plats but the similarities end there. One is walled the other isn't. BoC has massive side BZ's and a short ceiling. BF is also not as wide. I think they can coexist as starters. Hell, people were ok with PS2 and DP being in the same list at one point.

Thanks! We like it too. It's working out well so far. Hopefully, the next update will have more options. Stuff like small stages with bigger BZ's or more medium stages. Even just reducing the ceiling on Dreamland or expanding the side BZ's on Delfino to give us an appropriate "huge" stage. We'll be running this stagelist until that happens.

Also, it should be noted that even though BC is tri-plat, it doesn't really play like BF at all. The side platforms are higher, which means very few moves will hit through them from the floor. You also won't have stupid BS like Falcon stomping on the platform and hitting you when you're on the floor(that just shouldn't be a thing anyway tho). And the middle platform is lower, being only very slightly higher than the side platforms, which means no circle camping. There are also characters who juggle really well with the circular layout of BF that will be just a bit less potent on BC. I could go on, but yeah. I think they're fine to have together.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

In future updates, I think PM needs:

-WL with blastzones that aren't so small

-DL with blastzones that aren't so ridiculously big (why not just change the blastzones in the HD version in order to preserve the meleetude or whatever)

-A new medium stage that could function as a starter alongside BF and SV


I think these changes would allow for a stagelist that is well-balanced and does not give significant advantages or disadvantages to any character archetypes.

 

[JOE!]

Im doing a project using the 15~ish stages tha tcould be considered legal and I've found that while DL's sides are kinda silly, they're not that outlandish if Bowser's Castle is in the mix. More data later...

 

[JesteRace]

Im doing a project using the 15~ish stages tha tcould be considered legal and I've found that while DL's sides are kinda silly, they're not that outlandish if Bowser's Castle is in the mix. More data later...

They sides aren't the problem with Dreamland anyway. It's the ceiling. If they could just shrink the ceiling to like, 210-220 or something, it'd be easy to justify.

 

[Kneato]

In future updates, I think PM needs:

-WL with blastzones that aren't so small

-DL with blastzones that aren't so ridiculously big (why not just change the blastzones in the HD version in order to preserve the meleetude or whatever)

-A new medium stage that could function as a starter alongside BF and SV


I think these changes would allow for a stagelist that is well-balanced and does not give significant advantages or disadvantages to any character archetypes.

There are no more future updates

 

[nimigoha]

There are no more future updates

Can we parade your altered stagelist through the subreddit now?

Or go back to figuring out how to work with what we have?

 

[Kneato]

Can we parade your altered stagelist through the subreddit now?

Or go back to figuring out how to work with what we have?

I don't know about anyone else but my thoughts on the stagelist boil down to this:

If the community is okay with a stagelist of modified stages, there are a million and 1 different lists people will make many of which could be argued as "very good". Every region will make their own list based on their own stage bias, and we will be back to square 1. The only hope of the modified list being universal was if PMDT made those changes themselves in a future patch. But that's definitely not happening now.

Therefor, I only see one way of achieving a universal list

1)We need to come to an agreement on what the best possible list is with the current stages.

2)We need concrete reasons as to why this list is better than any other list xyz. IE stats and balance.

3)We need to convince a number of major PM TOs to adopt the list for their tournaments. Especially those with big stream exposure.

4)If even 2 or 3 major tournaments all run the same list, and its benefits are clear, regions will begin to adopt it and it will snowball from there.

With the current stages every list WILL have issues and there ISN'T a perfect list. But we need to learn to settle our petty disputes about minor issues and pick ONE list we can all agree is good and advocate it with hells fury.

 

[4tlas]

Achieving a universal list using modified stages will be even harder, since not only do TOs have to run the list but players have to find the stages just to practice. I don't think using the modified stages is plausible unless they become "official" somehow. I guess if the main download site goes down it won't be any harder than normal to find the modified-stage build though...

I think the best thing to do is continue running different lists and gather data until we can come up with a best, non-perfect list. This may take a while, but I don't think that's a big problem.

 

[JesteRace]

#bowserscastleneutralmasterrace

 

[Darth Shard]

Minnesota PM has adopted the same stagelist as Nebraska. u/reebok1984 and I actually had some back and forth dialogue about it on r/ssbpm and I was able to successfully pitch the new list to our main PM TO. Hopefully we can start a movement!

 

[JesteRace]

Minnesota PM has adopted the same stagelist as Nebraska. u/reebok1984 and I actually had some back and forth dialogue about it on r/ssbpm and I was able to successfully pitch the new list to our main PM TO. Hopefully we can start a movement!

Yeeessss. Let's gooooo.