Project M| Parry

[Aerros11]

It took a while:

In Description:

*UPDATE Feb. 3:*
-Due to at least partial demand, the download link to a 3 frame parry window is right here (yes, 2 frames does make a massive difference)

3 FRAME WINDOW DOWNLOAD
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=207646
(hitbox frame knowledge required)

5 FRAME WINDOW DOWNLOAD
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=207625
(feels intuitive)

-Looking into replacing a special brawl mode with a Parry Mode.
*Note: In comparison, Yoshi's default PM parry is 7. Whole. Frames....*
__________________________________________________________________


DOWNLOAD STEPS:
1. Save a copy of your original fighter folder.

2. Download
http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=207625

3. Replace fighter folder
(project m -- pf -- fighter)
___________________________________________

PURPOSE:
The content shown is simply experimental.

It was originally started because I felt as though SDI (Smash Directional Influence) was not enough to counter an observed apparent helplessness when a defender is airborne.

Whether successful or not, this project means to show that:
-games are best improved by the player base
-complicated skills can be learned if the will exists
___________________________________________

KNOWN ERRORS
report bugs by:
-using the comment section
-send emails to KPeralta9@gmail.com
-send messages via youtube private messaging

1. If parrying does not activate on your character:
-Select Sheik or Samus and start a match.
-Exit match.
-Selecting any character from this point on should enable parrying.

2. Ice Climber duo parrying bugged. For now, until this project gains popularity, select Solo Popo (SoPo) by holding R after selecting Ice Climbers
: (
I could not solve this alone, in time.

3. Assigning the Parry Animations to empty subactions (the same "folder area" where jumping, squatting scripts are located) led to some errors early in development.
Some ladder animations were replaced to accommodate this new technique.
___________________________________________

MUSIC
Kind Des Wehrmuts
by Centhron

Apologies for the video quality~
This was what the quality was supposed to look like:
http://i.imgur.com/J9qUiHx.png
http://i.imgur.com/AvHirg4.png
http://i.imgur.com/zSMCuRv.png
http://i.imgur.com/QgjIVzH.png

 

[Blitzus]

This is essentially powershielding with a larger window. make the timing really tight, even tighter for the aerial one and have it put the attacker in some kind of recovery frame, and yeah, it looks kind of real.

 

[Aerros11]

The window might be too big, I agree. I just watched some vids on yoshi's grab parry (which I should find and delete since that's broken,incidentally)... anyway, his parry is a 7 frame window.

3 or 4 might be best... or even 5, maybe I should change the poll @__@

And slowing down time might be the best solution.
Stunning the opponent is no fun if they're caught mid-Air (they'll sink and get punished far too much, making attackers a bit too intimidated)

 

[Frozn~]

I'm not sure how I feel about this, as this would change the game completely. It feels like I'd have to learn a whole new game, and not just character match-ups like the transition from melee to pm.

 

[Selpar]

I'm not sure how I feel about this, as this would change the game completely. It feels like I'd have to learn a whole new game, and not just character match-ups like the transition from melee to pm.

This is how I felt when I found out about wave dashing. In the end though as long as the technique isn't too over powered player skill can compensate for it even if the player doesn't use the technique themselves. Like I can beat most people in a one on one for glory match using Ganondorf without dodging, grabbing, or using my shield. Are those techniques worth less because I choose not to use them? Heck no, they are great additions to the game, they prevent me from having and unending rein of terror against other players.

I feel that a parry system if well implemented would likely be the same way, an advantage to those that use it and simply another obstacle to overcome for everyone else.

 

[Frozn~]

I couldn't have said it any better, myself. It's not something that lowers the skill level, but skyrockets it. This is an incredibly powerful technique, and not that difficult to abuse. However, I'm not interested in playing something that isn't melee-esque, which is why I picked up project melee in the first place. There is plenty of fundamental tech as well as individual character tech already for people to learn. I would, however, be okay if it was implemented on an individual character, say Link/Tink (since he actually has a shield). It would change his game completely, and if implemented correctly he'd be stronger, and both fun to play as or against.

 

[Jmanthesmasher683]

I have followed the steps on a 2gb sd card and it says there is not enough space to copy the fighter file. is this homebrew only or am i missing something? help, please?

 

[Aerros11]

I couldn't have said it any better, myself. It's not something that lowers the skill level, but skyrockets it. This is an incredibly powerful technique, and not that difficult to abuse. However, I'm not interested in playing something that isn't melee-esque, which is why I picked up project melee in the first place. There is plenty of fundamental tech as well as individual character tech already for people to learn. I would, however, be okay if it was implemented on an individual character, say Link/Tink (since he actually has a shield). It would change his game completely, and if implemented correctly he'd be stronger, and both fun to play as or against.

It's all experimental, really.
There's already much speculation about whether this is a good idea or a bad idea, by the way; I think it's really up to mass use that will tell if this technique has a place in smash or not.

For now, I'm still looking at placing this into a special brawl...which would be awesome @O@!
----

I have followed the steps on a 2gb sd card and it says there is not enough space to copy the fighter file. is this homebrew only or am i missing something? help, please?

Not enough space D:?
The original fighter folder (for PM 3.5) is 455MB.
The total size of the original folder with apps, codes, pm, gameconfig is 704 MB

My modded fighter folder ................... is 465 MB.
A 10MB difference is well under 2GB and the fighter folders are interchangeable between nonhomebrew and homebrew.

Does PM work for you without my mod?

 

[Jmanthesmasher683]

It's all experimental, really.
There's already much speculation about whether this is a good idea or a bad idea, by the way; I think it's really up to mass use that will tell if this technique has a place in smash or not.

For now, I'm still looking at placing this into a special brawl...which would be awesome @O@!
----



Not enough space D:?
The original fighter folder (for PM 3.5) is 455MB.
The total size of the original folder with apps, codes, pm, gameconfig is 704 MB

My modded fighter folder ................... is 465 MB.
A 10MB difference is well under 2GB and the fighter folders are interchangeable between nonhomebrew and homebrew.

Does PM work for you without my mod?

pm works for me, but it says there is not enough free space. i had to reinstall project m multiple times and it still doesn't work. maybe its the version or the time i downloaded? i am not sure.

 

[Aerros11]

pm works for me, but it says there is not enough free space. i had to reinstall project m multiple times and it still doesn't work. maybe its the version or the time i downloaded? i am not sure.

What a bummer .__.'|l
Okay, I expected issues.
Could you let me know which version of Project M you are currently using from the choices below:


1. Hackless Wii ZIP (Full Set)
November 14th

2. Hackless Wii ZIP (WiFi-Safe)
November 14th

3. Homebrew Option ZIP (Full Set)
November 14th

4. Homebrew Option ZIP (WiFi-Safe)
November 14th



5. Gecko GCT (Full-Set)
November 14th

6. Gecko GCT (WiFi-Set)
November 14th

I'll check for differences and even send you a message after I've figured this out.
If you're having issues, then others will too.
Sorry for the trouble~

 

[Jmanthesmasher683]

What a bummer .__.'|l
Okay, I expected issues.
Could you let me know which version of Project M you are currently using from the choices below:


1. Hackless Wii ZIP (Full Set)
November 14th

2. Hackless Wii ZIP (WiFi-Safe)
November 14th

3. Homebrew Option ZIP (Full Set)
November 14th

4. Homebrew Option ZIP (WiFi-Safe)
November 14th



5. Gecko GCT (Full-Set)
November 14th

6. Gecko GCT (WiFi-Set)
November 14th

I'll check for differences and even send you a message after I've figured this out.
If you're having issues, then others will too.
Sorry for the trouble~

I am using the Hackless Wii Zip (Full Set) or #1.

 

[Aerros11]

I've been distracted the passed few days. I'll take a look at it before end of day

 

[Jmanthesmasher683]

I've been distracted the passed few days. I'll take a look at it before end of day

ok

 

[Numinextra]

-Message Deleted-

 

[Aerros11]

Though my reluctance shines bright, I'd very much like to see even more expansion into areas of Project M. So I'll give this a shot, it certainly looks promising, if not official.

Thanks for being open to it! : D

ok

Kay, sorry that took a while.
As I thought, the fighter folders makes a very small impact on space.

I just tried the hackless version with my 3 frame window parry on a wii and it worked perfectly (still with the bugs listen in the video desciption, of course @__@). The 5 frame window should work just as well (since the 3 frame one is just a copy paste of the 5 frame).

It might be a pain, but the solution would be to redownload the hackless verison.
Maybe other mods of yours are interfering, in someway (<-------random guess ).

 

[Jmanthesmasher683]

Thanks for being open to it! : D



Kay, sorry that took a while.
As I thought, the fighter folders makes a very small impact on space.

I just tried the hackless version with my 3 frame window parry on a wii and it worked perfectly (still with the bugs listen in the video desciption, of course @__@). The 5 frame window should work just as well (since the 3 frame one is just a copy paste of the 5 frame).

It might be a pain, but the solution would be to redownload the hackless verison.
Maybe other mods of yours are interfering, in someway (<-------random guess ).

I had no other mods, but ill redownload the hackles pack. besides, i was gonna play mincecraft anyway, so that'll pass the time.

EDIT: nevermind, downloaded in five seconds. it never downloads that fast lol.

 

[Jmanthesmasher683]

Thanks for being open to it! : D



Kay, sorry that took a while.
As I thought, the fighter folders makes a very small impact on space.

I just tried the hackless version with my 3 frame window parry on a wii and it worked perfectly (still with the bugs listen in the video desciption, of course @__@). The 5 frame window should work just as well (since the 3 frame one is just a copy paste of the 5 frame).

It might be a pain, but the solution would be to redownload the hackless verison.
Maybe other mods of yours are interfering, in someway (<-------random guess ).

well i might have to stick with brawl vault mods because i tried and it STILL didn't work. if i get a new sd card i'll try again. sorry

 

[Aerros11]

well i might have to stick with brawl vault mods because i tried and it STILL didn't work. if i get a new sd card i'll try again. sorry

Gah @__@
If it downloads in 5 seconds, it must not have downloaded completely, btw unless you have download speeds of 92.4MB/s o__o

My mod is a brawl vault mod!
Wish I could be more useful, though.
But it definitely works as intended so the problem is on your end, unfortunately.
...so many variables x__x'|l...

 

[Jmanthesmasher683]

Gah @__@
If it downloads in 5 seconds, it must not have downloaded completely, btw unless you have download speeds of 92.4MB/s o__o

My mod is a brawl vault mod!
Wish I could be more useful, though.
But it definitely works as intended so the problem is on your end, unfortunately.
...so many variables x__x'|l...

yeah, I really wanted to try it out, but i already started to mod my project m so now i need a new 2gb sd card. ill try again when i get one.

 

[WalkingAngel]

For some reason ladders get parried on which could result in freezing

 

[BrianAure]

idk what to think about this, but I've been playing yoshi a lot in melee.

 

[Aerros11]

For some reason ladders get parried on which could result in freezing

I thought I had responded to this.
The next "patch" will address that problem.
It's like this now because I had problems early in development when I placed parrying into an empty "subaction".

idk what to think about this, but I've been play yoshi a lot in melee.

If anything, it will hopefully be turned into a special Brawl!

 

[jemuelv906]

Seems pretty cool, though I agree it may change up the game a lot, and isn't the crouch cancel mechanic the purpose of parrying in the original PM/Melee

 

[Aerros11]

Seems pretty cool, though I agree it may change up the game a lot, and isn't the crouch cancel mechanic the purpose of parrying in the original PM/Melee

Hey! Glad you're open to it. I'm still slowly making the improvements necessary to make parrying a more accessible mode.
Have you tried crouch cancelling all moves at any percentage, by the way?
How about Peach's down smash (famous example)?

Crouch cancelling and Smash Directional Influence are both techniques which degrade in effectiveness over time per stock and aren't exactly meant to prevent hits but rather lessen their undesired impact.

I wish it were easier to record epic matches with Parrying so people could be more persuaded @__@
Thanks again~

 

[OreOxKiiD]

I can't help but feel like I did something wrong, or I'm just bad at parrying. (I'm using a hori battle pad, so I can't see invincibility frames in debug mode). When I downloaded the file I copied and pasted all of the character folders over my custom brawl vault characters (allowing around 600 folders (idr) to be copied over) assuming it would give me the default PM skins. But when I got on the game I noticed all of my custom skins were still there and I couldn't parry. I'm using the hackless WiFi full set (or w.e) idk what I did wrong, please help, thank you.

 

[Phaiyte]

This tech speeds up games and promotes aggression even more than without it in a metagame environment. On the ground you can only parry while crouching, which means if you're in any state that isn't neutral, you cannot parry, and if you try to anyways, you will be DIing down basically by default, which mostly means more stocks taken faster, faster sets, harder outplays, etc. Being knocked down, dodge rolling, tech rolling, being in shield, being in any kind of hitstun, basically any situation that moves your opponent from neutral to being punished, he can not parry, and is punished harder by attempting to anyways. What I'm saying here is that you are rewarded for having good offensive pressure, which is one of those "golden rules" everyone likes to bring up for whatever reason. Good offensive pressure means your opponent won't have the opportunity to parry at all once you get started, so you effectively eliminate an option altogether by leaving your opponent in hitstun or off the ground as long as possible.

A 5 frame window is pretty difficult to hit on a regular basis, and there is no way in **** anyone is going to parry with that much success. The reward for landing one is very well deserved for the risk you run by attempting to do it, whereas plain shielding leaves your stick in neutral, and you get to DI anywhere you want when you inevitably get grabbed or hit out of that shield, which brings me to my next point. If you miss your parry, whatever you just got hit with will be DId down, and I think we all know how that can cause a lot of problems. But I mean, that's what you get for being bad I guess.

Just like against armor, grabs always win. If your opponent just walks up to you and crouches and/or you anticipate their parry, that's a free grab. This is not an uncommon technique, either. It's done with regular shields all the time as a mixup.

Speaking of mixups, you also now have the option of greater mixups. The input is different for air and ground parries. So, those moves you sometimes do that pop your enemy just a little bit into the air, usually at lower %s? Now they can't press down to parry correctly, so they DI down in a rush of being straight up outplayed. If they do catch the fact that they are now in the air, parry still doesn't work while you're in hitstun, and it's still difficult to time it correctly with a 5 frame window, and you can't do it while attacking, and they can still grab you out of the attempt for free with a correct guess.

tl;dr skill floor/ceiling gap becomes unimaginably massive

 

[Aerros11]

This tech speeds up games and promotes aggression even more than without it in a metagame environment. On the ground you can only parry while crouching, which means if you're in any state that isn't neutral, you cannot parry, and if you try to anyways, you will be DIing down basically by default, which mostly means more stocks taken faster, faster sets, harder outplays, etc. Being knocked down, dodge rolling, tech rolling, being in shield, being in any kind of hitstun, basically any situation that moves your opponent from neutral to being punished, he can not parry, and is punished harder by attempting to anyways. What I'm saying here is that you are rewarded for having good offensive pressure, which is one of those "golden rules" everyone likes to bring up for whatever reason. Good offensive pressure means your opponent won't have the opportunity to parry at all once you get started, so you effectively eliminate an option altogether by leaving your opponent in hitstun or off the ground as long as possible.

A 5 frame window is pretty difficult to hit on a regular basis, and there is no way in **** anyone is going to parry with that much success. The reward for landing one is very well deserved for the risk you run by attempting to do it, whereas plain shielding leaves your stick in neutral, and you get to DI anywhere you want when you inevitably get grabbed or hit out of that shield, which brings me to my next point. If you miss your parry, whatever you just got hit with will be DId down, and I think we all know how that can cause a lot of problems. But I mean, that's what you get for being bad I guess.

Just like against armor, grabs always win. If your opponent just walks up to you and crouches and/or you anticipate their parry, that's a free grab. This is not an uncommon technique, either. It's done with regular shields all the time as a mixup.

Speaking of mixups, you also now have the option of greater mixups. The input is different for air and ground parries. So, those moves you sometimes do that pop your enemy just a little bit into the air, usually at lower %s? Now they can't press down to parry correctly, so they DI down in a rush of being straight up outplayed. If they do catch the fact that they are now in the air, parry still doesn't work while you're in hitstun, and it's still difficult to time it correctly with a 5 frame window, and you can't do it while attacking, and they can still grab you out of the attempt for free with a correct guess.

tl;dr skill floor/ceiling gap becomes unimaginably massive

I'm surprised this is still getting attention ^ ^
Thanks for trying it out.
I've been far less dedicated to this project recently but I will have not given up on it!

 

[Aerros11]

I can't help but feel like I did something wrong, or I'm just bad at parrying. (I'm using a hori battle pad, so I can't see invincibility frames in debug mode). When I downloaded the file I copied and pasted all of the character folders over my custom brawl vault characters (allowing around 600 folders (idr) to be copied over) assuming it would give me the default PM skins. But when I got on the game I noticed all of my custom skins were still there and I couldn't parry. I'm using the hackless WiFi full set (or w.e) idk what I did wrong, please help, thank you.

All versions work on my end.
Did you try the "select Sheik" work around?

Essentially: select Sheik, start a game, end game, select a different character.

This experiment is still slightly buggy unfortunately and I hope that's the solution for now.
Enabling debug mode is really the best way to tell if parrying is activated.

Let me know your results~

 

[Phaiyte]

I'm surprised this is still getting attention ^ ^
Thanks for trying it out.
I've been far less dedicated to this project recently but I will have not given up on it!

I more or less copy/pasted what I gave you in reddit and changed it to try to fit the context of this thread.

Any word on those couple bug fixes? Yoshi turning around for DJC and Jet Set Sonic crashing the game?

 

[Aerros11]

I more or less copy/pasted what I gave you in reddit and changed it to try to fit the context of this thread.

Any word on those couple bug fixes? Yoshi turning around for DJC and Jet Set Sonic crashing the game?

I took a look at it, then took a long break.
To be honest, I had planned to fix all the problems in a cluster as soon as more help arrived to convert this into a special brawl.
The latter is taking forever so I suppose it's time I went back to optimizing parrying on my own again.

Well, that's the truth of things.