Project M grab armor and ledge grabs

[666blaziken]

While Project M has almost everything melee has to make it feel like a true successor to melee, I feel it has some minor things that hinder it slightly. While not exactly the biggest issues, there are times where I go, "huh, would this have worked in melee?" I am talking about the grab armor and ledge grabs. Sometimes when I grab my opponent, if the opponent does a jab or weak attack, I take the damage before successfully grabbing them. I don't remember this in melee, so why was this implemented? Again, this doesn't have to be changed, but I want to know the reasoning. Sometimes when I play, I feel that the characters have too much range when grabbing the ledge. Although it is only about 1/10th of brawl's ridiculously long ledge grab reach, it still feels like it is longer than melee's. Am I just imagining it because of the brawl animations showing the characters grabbing the ledge, or is it actually longer? Are you planning to change this, or will this be in the final release? Thanks

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

What is this 1 dead frame thing people keep whining about? Is it something to do with the shield? And if it is then why are people whining so much about a 1/60th of a second?

 

[\Apples]

So, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the grab armor actually did occur in Melee except it differs from P:M's grab armor in 2 ways:
1. There is no white flash when it occurs.
2. The grabber takes no damage from the attack they trade with, rather than suffering half-damage.

So technically, the mechanic is implemented more poorly in Melee. There really is no visual cue for the phenomenon, so it makes sense that you'd never know it exists. At least, that's what I read/heard, I can't remember which, or whether or not it was a from a reliable source or not.

Ledge-teleportation can be done facing backwards and there is a larger window for most characters to grab the ledge during their recovery moves as well. There are certainly more opportunities for ledges to be grabbed in P:M and some characters are certainly a little more teleporty than one might expect, but remember Doc in Melee? That dude has grabbed some absurd ledges in his day. I don't really think it's that bad in P:M and you may in fact be imagining it as you said, but I'll pay more attention to it next time I play.

 

[666blaziken]

So, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the grab armor actually did occur in Melee except it differs from P:M's grab armor in 2 ways:
1. There is no white flash when it occurs.
2. The grabber takes no damage from the attack they trade with, rather than suffering half-damage.

So technically, the mechanic is implemented more poorly in Melee. There really is no visual cue for the phenomenon, so it makes sense that you'd never know it exists. At least, that's what I read/heard, I can't remember which, or whether or not it was a from a reliable source or not.

Ledge-teleportation can be done facing backwards and there is a larger window for most characters to grab the ledge during their recovery moves as well. There are certainly more opportunities for ledges to be grabbed in P:M and some characters are certainly a little more teleporty than one might expect, but remember Doc in Melee? That dude has grabbed some absurd ledges in his day. I don't really think it's that bad in P:M and you may in fact be imagining it as you said, but I'll pay more attention to it next time I play.

ok, thanks! I see why this change was made now. I usually see the "PM ledge grab" the most with fox. What matters to me is that it isn't as bad as brawl's grab range. I just wanted to see pmbr's reasoning for this.

 

[standardtoaster]

We didn't make their backward ledge grab range larger than their front grab range on purpose. It's just how brawl deals with ledge grab boxes. We hope to edit the backward grab range when we have the ability to do so.

 

[Mr.Random]

We didn't make their backward ledge grab range larger than their front grab range on purpose. It's just how brawl deals with ledge grab boxes. We hope to edit the backward grab range when we have the ability to do so.

You fixed Fox's side b. I noticed because whenever I want to get to the ledge quickly I side b but I can't grab it backwards anymore

 

[standardtoaster]

We edited when you could grab it backwards, not how far the range was.

 

[210stuna]

The damage occurring when being grabbed or doing the grabbing is from Brawl when the attacker attacks at the same moment the grabber grabs.

It's more of a balance element in the sense that both players get what they pressed for at the same time, damage and grabbing.

I believe in Melee it was that the grabber would receive no damage when the attacker attacked at the same time. That's why you didn't notice it back then.

 

[Kink-Link5]

What is this 1 dead frame thing people keep whining about? Is it something to do with the shield? And if it is then why are people whining so much about a 1/60th of a second?

It isn't a dead frame.

For most momentum changes (IE, physics based mechanics), there is a 1-frame delay before the momentum change is applied. This doesn't make a difference for timings on muscle memory (thus, wavedashing is unaffected) but when that 1 frame delay is applied to every change in momentum (which occur, you know, kind of often in a game like smash), it makes a noticeable enough difference in the feel of the game.

 

[DMG]

1. Grab armor in Melee always has the grabber win, and take no damage. You can grab the most ridiculous things, like a falcon punch at the same time, and it won't hurt you at all. The way it works in PM, is that the grabber will take damage of that attack. ONLY if it's on the same frame though: if you grab a frame faster than their attack comes out, you will obviously still take no damage. Just trades on the same frame will give you some damage.