Post patch Corrin: Addressing the misconceptions

[PK Gaming]

There has been a lot of talk of Corrin being "significantly" nerfed after the patch, and while that seems to be the case due to the large numeber of nerfs, the total negative effect they had Corrin were fairly minor. I'll be going over every change, point by point, and explaining why that is the case.

Uair: Uair has had its damage (and consequently its knockback nerfed), but it received a minor boost in base knockback growth, which noticeably mitigates the nerf in knockback. Its safety on shield is unchanged.
Verdict: A nerf, but a light one. (Here is an example of how much later Uair will KO).

Nair: Nair has received a slight reduction in damage on both hits, but the side effect of doing so has made it easier to combo opponents. To put it more precisely, I was able to string Nair -> Fair on characters at higher percentages than before (I personally tested this on multiple characters between versions). Its safety on shield is unchanged.
Verdict: A damage nerf, but with clear benefits. Opponents aren't launched as far after being hit, making it easier to perform follow up attacks on them.

Fair: Similar to Nair, Fair has had its damage reduced. This also has had the side effect of making it easier to combo opponents for the same reasons as above. Its safety on shield is unchanged.
Verdict: Damage nerf with clear benefits. See above.

Dragon Fang Shot: Charged DFS has received damage nerfs all around, but it's important to keep a few things in mind. Charged DFS wasn't that great of a tool to begin with due to its large commitment and how easy it was to block/intercept. Regardless, due to how the move functions (stun is based on how much damage they've taken) it IS harder to get followups, though it becomes less noticeable at higher %.

Verdict: A clean nerf, but the best aspect of this move (uncharged DFS to bite) is completely unchanged. DFS --> DL no longer works at lower % (ie charged DFS won't connect 50% at the center of battlefield) which is something to keep in mind, but it's still effective at % where it will cleanly net the KO. Again, this wasn't a move you wanted to throw out at mid range due to how punishable it is.

Counter Surge: Counter Surge has been nerfed tremendously, but anyone who was remotely familiar with how Corrin was played at high levels of play should realize that this is a basically non-factor.
Verdict: It's no longer a crutch for desperate Corrins to fall on in order to get a surprise skill. It's still good at getting KOs near the top of the stage, however.

Walk, Run and Air Speed: Before I comment any further, you absolutely need to watch this video, which compares Corrin's mobility between version 1.14 and 1.15.

As you can plainly see, Corrin's mobility nerfs are almost completely inconsequential. And this is a point that needs to be especially stressed because I have seen countless players (even commentators!) claim that Corrin's mobility nerfs were noticeable, or that Corrin has lost out on combos.

Verdict: People are experiencing a clear placebo effect, as Corrin largely controls the same and there are very, very, very rare instances were Corrin cannot follow up on a DFS. The nerf to air speed is more significant due to how important air speed is in general, but even then it's not that important in practice. 0.97 is still average, and fairly decent for Corrin.

Front/Back Roll: Both of Corrin's rolls have lost 2 frames of invincibility at the end, but this should have next to no effect in an actual match. For reference, Corrin now shares roll frame data with Greninja.
Verdict: Corrin's rolls haven't noticeably changed.

Item Toss Strength: lol
Verdict: lol

In conclusion

Notable changes
- Uair was strictly nerfed, but BKG was slightly compensated. Still a very solid combo tool/KO option
-/+ Fair and Nair were nerfed in damage, but now grant more follow up opportunities at higher %
--Charged DFS is generally weaker and has less stun time. Can no longer perform follow ups at lower %

Not really important
-Air speed nerf
-Counter Surge isn't a crutch anymore

Largely irrelevant
-Ground mobility was nerfed by an inconsequential degree
-Item toss
-Roll changes

That's literally it. When you break it down, Corrin's changes barely have an effect on how the character is played at high levels of play. If you were worried about Corrin post patch, then you should breath easy. They're essentially the same character.

 

[Raziek]

Also worth noting in the section on Uair, is that as a result of the changes to Fair/Nair, combos from those 2 INTO Uair work at higher percents than they did previously, and still lethally so.

Corrin is basically the same overall. You have to get maybe 1-2 extra hits over the course of a stock, but damage values on many of her tools are completely unchanged. (Notably, DL, DLK and Bair)

Calm yourselves, those of you screaming 'the sky is falling'.

 

[atreyujames]

Couldn't have said it better myself. When I compare the weight of the Dragon Ball, mobility, and Uair nerfs versus the gain gotten from the Fair and Nair damage nerfs, I feel as though we gained just as much as we lost, if not more. The DFS and mobility nerf haven't effected my game AT ALL. I'm sure the Uair nerf has caused me to miss maybe 4-5 kills since the patch that I could've gotte pre-patch, BUT the increase in combo ability and percent ranges has made a much more noticeable effect on how I play, in a very positive way. I'm connecting combos better, later and with an increase in how long I can stretch my strings. I can actually pull off FF Nair->Fair->fair->Uair consistantly now, which required bad DI and a very precise percent pre-patch.

 

[Zephil]

Perfect explanation, now everybody should finally understand that Corrin is still pretty much the same character. You may say that even a little better when compared with the bigger nerfs that the top tier chars suffered

 

[Hero_2_All]

This ... IMO corrin was more tweaked than nerfed. It changed her from the bursty early dmg cheese monster she was. Into a character with more constant combos overall and less cheese (comboing is now a must when before they hit so hard that getting less hits was ok). I believe they tweaked her more into the sword combo/spacing character she was initially envisioned as (move nerfs were probably for separation form other FE aka ike's stats).

 

[Delzethin]

It's funny. Most of the people who are going on about how "badly" Corrin was nerfed...are people who don't actually play Corrin.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll withhold final judgment until I see tournament results.

I understand being able to combo is a plus, but it doesn't negate aerial, walking, and running speed nerfs as well as the rolling nerf in a game where rolling is actually important and every second counts.

 

[Flawlessh]

-Charged DFS is generally weaker (no effect on stun time)

I honestly think stun time was effected, since now it is much harder to land the tipper Dragon lunge (side-b) after they are stunned.
i cant even land it even CLOSE to as much times as i did pre-patch, maybe the mobility change is the cause of this but i dont think so.

if any1 has 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 that can test if stun time was effected i would appreciate it.

 

[PK Gaming]

I honestly think stun time was effected, since now it is much harder to land the tipper Dragon lunge (side-b) after they are stunned.
i cant even land it even CLOSE to as much times as i did pre-patch, maybe the mobility change is the cause of this but i dont think so.

if any1 has 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 that can test if stun time was effected i would appreciate it.

EDIT: After doing more testing, you're correct. It IS harder to land DFS > DL at lower %. It has to do with how the move functions (stun time is based on damage). It didn't notice because I was testing at higher % where the effect is muted, but it's there and definitely more noticeable at lower %. Updating the OP accordingly.

I'll withhold final judgment until I see tournament results.

I understand being able to combo is a plus, but it doesn't negate aerial, walking, and running speed nerfs as well as the rolling nerf in a game where rolling is actually important and every second counts.

For what its worth, Cosmos placed 4th at ShockWave 72 immediately with no noticeable drop in performance.

As I've stressed in the OP, the walking, running and rolling nerfs are essentially irrelevant. It would be a huge stretch to say that they'd make a noticeable difference in an actual match. Aerial speed was nerfed slightly, but it's still good. Corrin essentially went from having Robin/Rosa/Little Mac tier aerial movement to Bayonetta tier aerial movement. It's a nerf, and I've noted it as such, but the drop isn't as big as you'd think.

I absolutely get where you're coming from, but it's important to think about how these attributes were nerfed before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Raziek]

Because it was asked, the reason I specifically allowed this as a separate thread rather than have it in the patch discussion thread is that I feel it is important to have this information extremely visible, rather than buried deep in a thread filled mostly with uninformed complaints.

It is for this reason that I am allowing this topic to stand separate from the discussion thread.

 

[Skitrel]

I feel there's too much dismissal of movement speed changes. A very small change that doesn't change the overall handling of a character, but not a change to be outright dismissed as it affects what whiffs and what does not, who can chase and who can not, who can land and who can not.

Put it this way. If you changed Fox's or Jiggly's movement speed by 2/3% in Melee you'd certainly see a change in tournament results. It doesn't change how a character feels to play as it's very minor, but in terms of interaction with other characters, moves, and so on, it is the difference between a hit and a miss, a phantom and a certain hit. A really clear example of this movement nerf and its effect on footsies is the Marth match up, I'd have put it in favour of Corrin pre-patch, I now put it firmly in Marth's favour as he should win footsies. The Mario matchup has also become tougher on the grounds of it becoming harder to keep him out. In general "keep out" matchups have been affected by this change as retreating/whiff/footsies have taken a change of 2-3 frames of spacing. Not something that matters at low level, but it definitely affects gameplay in matchups where whiff spacing frames matter.

I don't really see anything else being said that wasn't also said (and disagreed with in some cases) in the other thread. Such as fair/nair making easier combos, I don't particularly agree that there's been any change at low percents, fair/nair combod from 0-15% on the whole cast. They've improved combos at high percents, but at that point I'd MUCH rather having a kill than a combo, adding more damage to someone past 100% is just increasing risk by adding more killing power to the opponent in the form of rage. Dtilt>uair kill confirm was Corrin's rage eliminating combo at 90-98%. Now it has to be performed on a platform. Ultimately I disagree with this mantra that fair/nair changes are buffs, but whatever.

I guess I'm not seeing what's different in this post that wasn't also part of discussion in the other thread. Except that now I have to repeat myself. It states it's clearing up misconceptions, I think shield safety was the only misconception people had in the other thread. Everything else people have been discussing and disagreeing over with fairly well reasoned opinions. The sky wasn't falling, people were just disagreeing over certain overly optimistic assessments of certain changes, or dismissal of other changes. Personally I really dislike dismissal of changes as irrelevant as then nobody really looks into them properly to ascertain the true intentions and/or effect behind said change. A retreating jump after a shield hit before and after the patch would cause some moves to whiff and others to not whiff, but with complete dismissal of the change as irrelevant nobody cares to truly delve in and find out. I on the other hand like knowing specifically which opponents can punish what with which moves in every matchup and major situation. I couldn't get hit by a Mario nair if the Mario perfect shielded my fair pre-patch, now I can get hit by it, and roll doesn't escape it (I theorise it probably would have pre patch) such a minor difference is inconsequential to some people, but if you pick through the smallest details in matchups there are certainly changes where 2-3 frames matter. They might not matter at Pools level in tournaments, but knowing an explicit detail like that matters as you get closer to finals. For anyone's reference spot dodge still escapes it, but that obviously opens up a pp fsmash/usmash read punish instead.

Do changes affect Corrin in the tiers? They sure don't, or at least not by more than 1 placing.

Do the changes matter? They sure do in some matchups and situations. Can we not outright dismiss things or label anything irrelevant?

 

[ARGHETH]

Put it this way. If you changed Fox's or Jiggly's movement speed by 2/3% in Melee you'd certainly see a change in tournament results. It doesn't change how a character feels to play as it's very minor, but in terms of interaction with other characters, moves, and so on, it is the difference between a hit and a miss, a phantom and a certain hit. A really clear example of this movement nerf and its effect on footsies is the Marth match up, I'd have put it in favour of Corrin pre-patch, I now put it firmly in Marth's favour as he should win footsies. The Mario matchup has also become tougher on the grounds of it becoming harder to keep him out. In general "keep out" matchups have been affected by this change as retreating/whiff/footsies have taken a change of 2-3 frames of spacing. Not something that matters at low level, but it definitely affects gameplay in matchups where whiff spacing frames matter.

Walking/running across an entire stage resulted in only a few frames distance. This shouldn't change any matchups, and if they do it's only by +/-0.25. You're overreacting a ton. The movement nerfs don't really matter because it takes going across half the stage for there to be a noticeable difference.
Unless there's tournament footage of this changing anything or you have tournament experience related to this, I'm not entirely sure you can talk about the difference in low level/high level play.

I guess I'm not seeing what's different in this post that wasn't also part of discussion in the other thread.

I think this is more for people who want somewhere quick to look so they don't have to crawl through the entire discussion (I, for one, found reading the entire thread kind of annoying).

 

[Skitrel]

Walking/running across an entire stage resulted in only a few frames distance. This shouldn't change any matchups, and if they do it's only by +/-0.25. You're overreacting a ton. The movement nerfs don't really matter because it takes going across half the stage for there to be a noticeable difference.
Unless there's tournament footage of this changing anything or you have tournament experience related to this, I'm not entirely sure you can talk about the difference in low level/high level play.

I think this is more for people who want somewhere quick to look so they don't have to crawl through the entire discussion (I, for one, found reading the entire thread kind of annoying).

I gave an example for the sake of providing something tangible to understand. I could go into a significantly long list of things that could be punished and could not be punished (and by what choices) by opponents in various common scenarios in various matchups BUT the walls have ears. The matchups I would be able to offer that level of knowledge in are the matchups that the main threats I have to play against use. As I'm top of the area monthly I've become acutely aware that people read the things I write looking to pick out weaknesses and I'm in no hurry to give those same people a nice long list of changes they should make to their gameplay to knock me down a peg.

The overall point is that various scenarios have received a change and as such it's not really something to dismiss. Corrin at an overall level hasn't changed but there are certainly specific situations where she's gained some extra vulnerability.

 

[Ryochi]

This boy deserves a medal

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The air speed nerf does nerf Corrin's already mediocre recovery though. Maybe not a huge nerf, but the 0.03 decrease could be a curse in certain scenarios.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I literally don't feel a thing. And I'm good.

 

[Eureka]

-/+ Fair and Nair were nerfed in damage, but now grant more follow up opportunities at lower %

I think you might have this mixed up. Because the moves do less damage they have less knockback. Which means they will allow combos to work at slightly higher percentages, not lower ones. In fact lower knockback would mean you'd need to get your opponent to a higher percent than before for the same combos to work. The only time lower knockback would make things connect earlier would be if they never connected to begin with.

Also I don't think the damage reduction is as neutral of a change as some people are making it out to be. While yes, Corrin's combos will work for longer, every time you do an air combo it's going to be doing 2%-4% less damage. Also, any hit that doesn't follow up like an up air for juggling or a stray nair or fair in neutral is purely doing less damage. And those small numbers add up. All this means the downside will always be present (the damage reduction) while the upside may or may not come into play (getting a combo at the percent range it wouldn't work before).

 

[Skitrel]

I think you might have this mixed up. Because the moves do less damage they have less knockback. Which means they will allow combos to work at slightly higher percentages, not lower ones. In fact lower knockback would mean you'd need to get your opponent to a higher percent than before for the same combos to work. The only time lower knockback would make things connect earlier would be if they never connected to begin with.

Technically both. There are a couple of situations where new combos have been granted in certain matchups that didn't work before. For example we couldn't get fair>dtilt/utilt combos against some lighter characters previously that we can get now. The downside of this is that we've also lost the same combo in certain matchups against the fastfallers that can now DI into the ground and perfectshield the tilt. This has hurt the Fox matchup in some detailed ways.

Also I don't think the damage reduction is as neutral of a change as some people are making it out to be. While yes, Corrin's combos will work for longer, every time you do an air combo it's going to be doing 2%-4% less damage. Also, any hit that doesn't follow up like an up air for juggling or a stray nair or fair in neutral is purely doing less damage. And those small numbers add up. All this means the downside will always be present (the damage reduction) while the upside may or may not come into play (getting a combo at the percent range it wouldn't work before).

I'm a big proponent of looking at the number of neutral interactions a character has to have with the opponent in order to bring their opponent into kill percent. In essence how many times a character must win the neutral in order to earn a kill, followed by how easy it is to win the neutral with that character and convert into the overall damage. Pre nerf Corrin could comfortably win a stock by winning neutral 3 times, post nerf she requires 5. Unless of course you nair/fair>sDFS>Bite which is certainly what everyone should be building into their aerial game instead of uair/fair strings. It's by far Corrin's best and most viable early kill confirm right now, it just can't be used stupidly due to unsafe spacing.

The baseline for number of neutral interactions a character must have has always been nerfed to roughly 5, Diddy had 3 at one time and is now roughly 5, ZSS was the same(pre recent throw nerf), Sheik, Fox, Sonic, Mario, Luigi, DK and so on. Exceptions include Ryu, Lucario and a couple others who have their higher punish power offset by a poorer footsies/neutral game. Pre nerf Corrin boasted a large punish game combined with an excellent neutral. If their intention is for Corrin to be a highly viable character then we don't need to worry about further changes, she's in the same zone as the viable top tier cast now. I expect to see Bayo take at least another nerf as her neutral game still doesn't match her capacity to dish out punishment. They'll probably leave her ridiculously combo power and nerf the heck out of her ability to actually start those combos by giving her poorer neutral.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think you might have this mixed up. Because the moves do less damage they have less knockback. Which means they will allow combos to work at slightly higher percentages, not lower ones. In fact lower knockback would mean you'd need to get your opponent to a higher percent than before for the same combos to work. The only time lower knockback would make things connect earlier would be if they never connected to begin with.

Also I don't think the damage reduction is as neutral of a change as some people are making it out to be. While yes, Corrin's combos will work for longer, every time you do an air combo it's going to be doing 2%-4% less damage. Also, any hit that doesn't follow up like an up air for juggling or a stray nair or fair in neutral is purely doing less damage. And those small numbers add up. All this means the downside will always be present (the damage reduction) while the upside may or may not come into play (getting a combo at the percent range it wouldn't work before).

Ah you're right, I flubbed that up. Combos work at higher % than before, not lower.

I disagree with your second assertion, however. Losing 2-4% on your combos is absolutely worth being able to potentially combo at higher %, especially if it leads into a KO. You can immediately see this come into play in Ryo's set against Master Raven 10:27:50 in which Ryo lands the Uair kill after a Nair which gives him a huge lead in the match. Even if these new combo routes aren't guaranteed, the fact they're even possible is a huge boon for Corrin. I've also seen Cosmos land a Bair after a Nair, which definitely wasn't possible before.

 

[Dastin]

I find myself playing the same way with Corrin, and winning more, in patch 1.1.5. I also feel like I can do combos easier.