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Post 1.0.6 - Let's talk about the item nerf

LunarWingCloud

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As we are well aware, the balance patch released on 4/15 had a few game-wide changes on top of the character specific tweaking. Depending on your viewpoint, fortunately or unfortunately, one of the major changes is the inability to perform a lot of moves while holding an item.

This very directly affects a lot of characters. Link, Toon Link, Peach, Mega Man, R.O.B., Wario to an extent, and any other characters I forgot to name, have all lost a valuable trick that improved their play.

I don't see a thread here on this board and since this is such a widespread change I think it deserves discussion. How do you think this change will affect the characters that it does and how they handle competitively?
 

GdspdUblkprzdnt

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Characters with a Zair can still do so while maintaining item control by airdodging just before inputting the zair. As far for item tricks that's the only one still in the game.
 

Raijinken

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I've never seen it widely used for any character on any stream. I could be wrong and just have a narrow selection, but I'm pretty sure the impact will be minimal.
 

1FC0

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Characters with a Zair can still do so while maintaining item control by airdodging just before inputting the zair. As far for item tricks that's the only one still in the game.
Why Zair? I can do all aerials without losing control of the Gyro by Z-dropping followed by the aerial of choice to recatch them.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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With Mega Man it was pretty excellent that you could keep up buster pressure with a metal blade in hand, but it was never critical unless you absolutely loved having a metal blade in your hand at all times. Jump cancel toss is a swiss army knife of an AT. Glad that wasn't removed.

The real shame is that this tech didn't see too much use on the broader tournament settings before it was taken out. Most people that played these characters knew it as a neat trick and nothing else. I bet dash dancing and wavedashing were neat tricks at one point about a decade ago as well.

I don't really see this trick as any sort of glitch either. It was just a means of taking advantage of controls. A lot of our ATs for Smash 4 are similar tricks that take advantage of initial dash frames, buffered inputs, etc. It's all within the realm of the game as it is programmed. Where as Wectoring and item tossing with Down B to cancel lag were clearly glitches in the programming. If this was hit, why not Jump cancel tossing? Or the dance trot/dash dance? Do players invested in Smash 4 have to dread incoming patches because one day valuable tricks may be removed? This is one thing that sets Smash 4 apart from other games in the series. Yet we begged for balance updates on this game for months.
 

FSK

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Characters with zairs can't zdrop aerial cancel...
They can, but they have to drop the item in the first frames upon leaving the ground. Airdodge zair is a terrible thing to do because it keeps the landing lag of the airdodge.
 

Sleek Media

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It was never very useful in the first place, at least not for Mega Man. You can still z-drop and shoot pellets if you don't want to throw the blade for some reason.
 

FooltheFlames

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I think is was completely unnecessary to remove this feature from the game.
It hinders alot of characters options, although it doesn't necessarily cripple their game.

I think it was removed in an effort to possibly nerf Diddy Kong and his "banana-gans" :lol:
But it actually effected other characters alot more than it Diddy
 

Sleek Media

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Any unintended behavior counts as a bug. Wavedashing was the same, but we didn't have patches in 2001. Like I said above, it doesn't really matter. Smash 4 is a game that rewards strong fundamentals above all else. We all have much to learn about using our items more effectively.
 

FooltheFlames

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Any unintended behavior counts as a bug. Wavedashing was the same, but we didn't have patches in 2001. Like I said above, it doesn't really matter. Smash 4 is a game that rewards strong fundamentals above all else. We all have much to learn about using our items more effectively.
Fair enough~
And I agree, we still have alot more to learn about this game ^_^
 

Nidtendofreak

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Any unintended behavior counts as a bug. Wavedashing was the same, but we didn't have patches in 2001. Like I said above, it doesn't really matter. Smash 4 is a game that rewards strong fundamentals above all else. We all have much to learn about using our items more effectively.
Wavedashing was intended behaviour.

They programmed the game to account for friction and momentum if somebody airdodged diagonally into the ground, or just into a slope. They had to program something in there for those situations after all, and the character just sticking to the ground would be awkward looking. For it to be a bug, the game would have to be doing something they didn't program: wavedashing was 100% programmed.

What it was, was an exploit: taking something that was programmed correctly, but using it in an unforeseen way. Everything was behaving as expected when somebody airdodged like that, but what they weren't accounting for was people intentionally, repeatedly doing that out of short hops.

The item things were most likely a bug, even if they weren't negative ones. You weren't suppose to have access to your other A moves if you were holding an item in your hand.
 

Sleek Media

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Warning Received
Ignorant, meaningless statements.
I've been writing programs for the government on a national scale for five years. I think I know a little more than you do about what is and isn't a bug. Don't get your fan-panties in a knot over it.
 
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diclonyuus

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I've been writing programs for the government on a national scale for five years. I think I know a little more than you do about what is and isn't a bug. Don't get your fan-panties in a knot over it.
Great. Are you also programming video games for the government on a national scale? Because I'm pretty sure you don't do debates for the government on a national scale (you'd know that providing sources and/or relevant points to a discussion makes a better impression for your argumentation).

Obviously you'd know that the common terms thrown around in game design are exactly as Nidtendofreak said. You are using game mechanics that were intended in order to do something that may or may not have been originally intended by the game developers (which, by the way, you have no way of knowing; provide a source if you do). Why do I think it's not entirely unintended? Because I can't think of anything else that would make sense when you airdodge diagonally into the ground. It is 100% using the game's "physics" engine. Meanwhile, a "bug", as you would know, being the programming prodigy that you are (I lol'd about that when you said it's a bug without having any insight in the game's code), would be creating a conflict in the games handling that doesn't throw a fatal exception and has consequences that you want to use. By the way, you can exploit bugs.

Here's a little analogy for you, since apparently you are too deep in programming theory to understand what we peasants are talking about:

Think you're playing GTA, and you are trying to pass over a wall that the developers made too high to climb.
Grabbing a car off the street (intended game mechanic), parking it in front of the wall (intended game mechanic) and jumping on top of the car (intended game mechanic) gives you enough height to climb the wall. (unintended game mechanic). That's exploiting the game's mechanics to do something unintended. Common practice to counter this exact scenario is putting an invisible wall there, or a death trigger, or whatever.

Now if you were using a bug that overrides the collision of your player model to run through that wall, you would be exploiting a bug. So answer me this question: Is Airdodging intended? Is giving a directional influence to the airdodge intended? I can't say no from spectating the game, can you point me to your source of code that disproves this?

By the way, Nintendo is aware of people using bugs and exploits to change the way games are played. Here's some little trivia on how they made the entire second half of Wind Waker unskippable even by using exploits or bugs:

https://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/tww/general-knowledge/the-hyrule-barrier-
 
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deepseadiva

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Any unintended behavior counts as a bug. Wavedashing was the same, but we didn't have patches in 2001.
I'm surprised this didn't erupt into 5+ pages of arguments like usual.

lmao anywaysssss

RIP minor tech im sure the five people who used it will miss u
 
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I've been writing programs for the government on a national scale for five years. I think I know a little more than you do about what is and isn't a bug. Don't get your fan-panties in a knot over it.
You're really not doing yourself any favours by just writing off his very valid points and sound reasoning as "ignorant, meaningless statements".
 

Sleek Media

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You're really not doing yourself any favours by just writing off his very valid points and sound reasoning as "ignorant, meaningless statements".
You're not doing yourself any "favours" with passive aggressive flaming. Nice try.
 
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Ha ha wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

You literally ignored everything they typed out and just replaced it with "ignorant, meaningless statements", and if that doesn't amount to flaming then I don't know what does. And then when you get called out on it you say you're getting flamed? Alright.

Anyway this doesn't relate to the thread topic so I'm not gonna pursue it any further, I just hope you realise the error of your ways my child
 
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