Possible Revision of the SSB4 Competitive Scene

[vinerd]

So I was watching a few Smash 3DS tournament vids, and I got to thinking: Jeez, the tournament rules haven't changed much. Now I just want to say that I DO NOT HATE COMPETITIVE PLAY, but there are some things I think they should put into consideration for Smash 4 competitive play.

First off, the stage choice. Pretty much the only stages I see are Battlefield and the FD forms. Now I know what you're saying, "But the other stages have hazards that effect the gameplay!" Well yes, some stages have some pretty annoying stage mechanics, they can't all be bad. I'm mostly talking about stages with walkoffs. Yes I know that there is no edgeguarding, but isn't the idea of Smash competitive play to show you are the best? If so, you probably wouldn't want to play one type of stage. Here's a list of stages from the 3DS version I think could work:

- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Gerudo Valley (Yes I know half of the stage is blocked sometimes by fire and ice, but it doesn't come from nowhere and is a drastic change of space size.)
- Yoshi's Island (There are no real hazards, and even though there are Fly Guys that carry items, you can just turn them off.)
- Arena Ferox (Again, no real hazards, aside from platforms)
- Boxing Ring (While it does have walkoffs and that giant falling light, it does involve some strategy to get up there and destroy the light before your opponent does)
- Guar Plain (Since the 3DS version doesn't have any real hazards, I think it would work. Also, the pit in the middle could lead to some really epic meteor smashes)
- Tomodachi Life (Again, no hazards, and a very basic layout)
- All FD Forms

This is just my two cents on the matter. So while a lot of stages have some really bad hazards, I think it could work. I mean, it's about being the best in the business! Games and mechanics change. So while this isn't Melee V2, it still needs to be recognized as its own thing.

 

[whoknowswhat]

Can someone tell me why Tomadachi LIfe isn't a legit stage in the first place?

 

[Jaxas]

So I was watching a few Smash 3DS tournament vids, and I got to thinking: Jeez, the tournament rules haven't changed much. Now I just want to say that I DO NOT HATE COMPETITIVE PLAY, but there are some things I think they should put into consideration for Smash 4 competitive play.

First off, the stage choice. Pretty much the only stages I see are Battlefield and the FD forms. Now I know what you're saying, "But the other stages have hazards that effect the gameplay!" Well yes, some stages have some pretty annoying stage mechanics, they can't all be bad. I'm mostly talking about stages with walkoffs. Yes I know that there is no edgeguarding, but isn't the idea of Smash competitive play to show you are the best? If so, you probably wouldn't want to play one type of stage. Here's a list of stages from the 3DS version I think could work:

- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Gerudo Valley (Yes I know half of the stage is blocked sometimes by fire and ice, but it doesn't come from nowhere and is a drastic change of space size.)
- Yoshi's Island (There are no real hazards, and even though there are Fly Guys that carry items, you can just turn them off.)
- Arena Ferox (Again, no real hazards, aside from platforms)
- Boxing Ring (While it does have walkoffs and that giant falling light, it does involve some strategy to get up there and destroy the light before your opponent does)
- Guar Plain (Since the 3DS version doesn't have any real hazards, I think it would work. Also, the pit in the middle could lead to some really epic meteor smashes)
- Tomodachi Life (Again, no hazards, and a very basic layout)
- All FD Forms

This is just my two cents on the matter. So while a lot of stages have some really bad hazards, I think it could work. I mean, it's about being the best in the business! Games and mechanics change. So while this isn't Melee V2, it still needs to be recognized as its own thing.

Pretty sure that the stage list for most tournaments is BF, FD (and Omega forms), and YI.

And I know that at least at our locals we run those as starters and Prism Tower, Arena Ferox, Tomodachi, Reset Bomb Forest, and soon Rainbow Road as counterpicks.

If you're looking for stage discussion though, you may want to try the
Stage Analysis and Discussion Thread or the Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion Thread.

 

[popsofctown]

Walkoff bans have nothing to do with the lack of the edge mechanic and everything to do with degenerate walkoff camp strategies.

 

[T0MMY]

Pretty sure that the stage list for most tournaments is BF, FD (and Omega forms), and YI.

And I know that at least at our locals we run those as starters and Prism Tower, Arena Ferox, Tomodachi, Reset Bomb Forest, and soon Rainbow Road as counterpicks.

If you're looking for stage discussion though, you may want to try the
Stage Analysis and Discussion Thread or the Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion Thread.

The UO and Big City Gamin' events did not use Yoshi's Island. Not sure about the rest of the scene around here.

Speaking of Yoshi's: Why was a counterpick-only in Brawl (and it was rarely used even at that) included in the 3DS as a starter?
Maybe all reasoning gets flushed down the drain after each Smash gen (see initial adoption of Pokemon Stadium 1 as starter, even though Melee removed it from its list only later to be removed entirely in the developed metagame).

Speaking of reasoning, regarding the above mentioned Stage selection:
Rainbow Road has environmental damage which is not in control of the players, so it follows that you should also have these stages:
3D Land
Jungle Japes
Gerudo Valley
Spirit Train
Brinstar
Corneria
Unova Pokemon League
Magicant
Flat Zone 2
WarioWare, Inc.
Tortimor Island
Balloon Fight
Living Room
Find Mii
PictoChat 2
Wily Castle
Pac-Maze

Prism Tower has stage transformation, which entails you should also include:
Paper Mario
Dream Land

Bomb Reset Forest has disruptive stage design, so it follows you should also include:
Mushroomy Kingdom
Gaur Plain

At this point there's really no reason you should not include Golden Plains, Mute City, Boxing Ring, Distant Planet, or Green Hill Zone since those are less disruptive than the above mentioned stages.

So, could you include a Full List Stage System where we can pretty much counterpick our opponents (i.e. force them) to go to a wonky stage? There's some silly stages I like to have fun on, and they have some good music to listen to (I enjoy good music if I set up camp and nobody is really doing anything for half the game).

 

[KentaKurodani]

I'd argue that Prism Tower's stage transformation is much less dynamic than Dream Land or Paper Mario. Especially Paper Mario's Bowser Phase, where the center Bowser head doesn't even have ledges. This really makes for wonky play. Whereas Prism Tower's only changes are type and size of platforms, which is much less disruptive.

 

[Random4811]

Arena Ferox and Prism towers transformations are so non invasive that they make for good CPs. I think Yoshi's should be a counterpick personally. It gives favor to a part of the cast due to its relatively small size, and interesting layout. Its hazards are noninvasive with items off. Reset Bomb's changes are really rather non invasive. Its second form may have a thing floating on the bottom, but it doesnt really affect much. The most problematic thing about it is that the platforms in form 2 can be broken. The transitional period can lead into light walkoff camp, and it is a period where really nothing can happen like Castle Siege, but whatevs.

 

[ppale]

at smashladder.com we play with FD, Battlefield, and Yoshi's as starters, with Ferox and Prism as counterpicks, and after playing with that setup a lot I still don't have any complaints about variety or those stages themselves.

Also, I'm against Tomodachi being legal, or at least a starter, because its 3 even platforms stacked above each other heavily favor vertical play, and not horizontal, and gives whoever is on the bottom platforms a significant advantage, even moreso than if you have the low ground on Battlefield or Yoshi's.

 

[Jaxas]

Arena Ferox and Prism towers transformations are so non invasive that they make for good CPs. I think Yoshi's should be a counterpick personally. It gives favor to a part of the cast due to its relatively small size, and interesting layout. Its hazards are noninvasive with items off. Reset Bomb's changes are really rather non invasive. Its second form may have a thing floating on the bottom, but it doesnt really affect much. The most problematic thing about it is that the platforms in form 2 can be broken. The transitional period can lead into light walkoff camp, and it is a period where really nothing can happen like Castle Siege, but whatevs.

Also, the breakable walls actually help the stage as it prevents that area from becoming a cave-of-life.

at smashladder.com we play with FD, Battlefield, and Yoshi's as starters, with Ferox and Prism as counterpicks, and after playing with that setup a lot I still don't have any complaints about variety or those stages themselves.

Also, I'm against Tomodachi being legal, or at least a starter, because its 3 even platforms stacked above each other heavily favor vertical play, and not horizontal, and gives whoever is on the bottom platforms a significant advantage, even moreso than if you have the low ground on Battlefield or Yoshi's.

Yeah, that's why it should be a counterpick; I agree that it shouldn't be a starter, though.

 

[CE_TheLord]

Tomodachi Life isn't good for competitive play (Reasons are explained above) But I think that the legal stages should be: FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Arena Ferox, Lumiose City and maybe (I repeat, maybe) the Boxing Ring.

The other stages should be played on FD form because these have really invasive properties. Anyway, the Wii U version comes out the next week, I doubt the 3DS version will be used for tournaments because of the little stage selection options so we should focus on Smash for Wii U.

 

[Jaxas]

Tomodachi Life isn't good for competitive play (Reasons are explained above) But I think that the legal stages should be: FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Arena Ferox, Lumiose City and maybe (I repeat, maybe) the Boxing Ring.

The other stages should be played on FD form because these have really invasive properties. Anyway, the Wii U version comes out the next week, I doubt the 3DS version will be used for tournaments because of the little stage selection options so we should focus on Smash for Wii U.

Why would Tomodachi not be legal if something like Boxing Ring is? I feel like BR is far more match-defining than Tomodachi, even excluding the fact that it's a walk-off stage...

 

[DavemanCozy]

First off, the stage choice. Pretty much the only stages I see are Battlefield and the FD forms.

Sounds to me like you need to watch more tournaments:

Nakat vs Jtails, Losers Finals in SmashLeague NY:
http://youtu.be/n-AWiki2dv4?t=19m50s
Third game in Prism Tower. This is one of my favorite stages in this game, almost everyone is ok with it being a counterpick too.

Nairo vs Orion, same tournament:
http://youtu.be/jT3LlsIydeY?t=1m1s
Yoshi's Island is being used here.

You're greatly exaggerating the use of Battlefield and FD being popular stages as well. These have been a standard for all smash games since Melee, and the fact they are popular picks among players is ok too. If you don't like playing on them, though, you now know that you have other options.

As for the ones you mentioned:

- Gerudo Valley (Yes I know half of the stage is blocked sometimes by fire and ice, but it doesn't come from nowhere and is a drastic change of space size.)
- Yoshi's Island (There are no real hazards, and even though there are Fly Guys that carry items, you can just turn them off.)
- Arena Ferox (Again, no real hazards, aside from platforms)
- Boxing Ring (While it does have walkoffs and that giant falling light, it does involve some strategy to get up there and destroy the light before your opponent does)
- Guar Plain (Since the 3DS version doesn't have any real hazards, I think it would work. Also, the pit in the middle could lead to some really epic meteor smashes)
- Tomodachi Life (Again, no hazards, and a very basic layout)
- All FD Forms

- Gerudo Valley
Hazards are not the only problem. The bridge breaks, creating a gap that encourages camping and running away. Fighitng down in that area is also not fun at all, becomes a cave of life that heavily favors KO's from the top and bottom. Walk offs are a big problem because they over-centralize the strategy in these stages to be camp edge -> back throw. No one wants to play like that, much less watch two people play like that.

- Arena Ferox
Whoever said the transformations are non-invasive, I disagree with. This stage has some nasty transformations that can be easily circle-camped due to the hard, impassable platforms that spawn. Not only that, but these hard platforms temporarily transform the stage into the Temple basement area, making KO's incredibly difficult in these transformations.

I wouldn't mind if this stage was a Counter-pick, but I would always ban it if it was.

- Boxing Ring:
The problem is that this stage places emphazis on breaking the light and camping the light. Not only that, but it spawns 5-seconds later, going back to the same strategy. Characters with good height in their moves can easily run circles around characters who can't get there fast enough. That frame of lights also causes some heavy damage when it comes crashing down.

I love the FD version though.

- Guar Plain
The stage layout is horrible to traverse around. It's another stage where characters with superior movement have a significant advantage.

 

[vinerd]

So I'm just gonna say that these could be potential stages for the Wii U version:

Battlefield
Big Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Delfino Plaza
N64 Kongo Jungle
Miiverse
Pilot Wings
Duck Hunt
Town & City

 

[MAGMIS]

I am fine with any stage for competitive play as long as it is:

1. No walkoffs (permanently), what I mean by that is like yoshi wolly world, the walkoffs are gone when its just floating platforms. but still I can see the issue with that I guess for a certain amount of time.

2. Nothing random about the platforms/stage changes. Example: Pilot Wings they tell you like 10 seconds before hand that your going to drop to the next plane. OR Kongo Jungle 64 where the barrel/moving platforms move in a pattern where you can tell before hand where its going to move next.

3. Not TOO BIG.

4. No terrain changes. Example: Pokemon Stadium 2.

5. No hazards unless its very very minor.

AND SO FAR the stage u listed for Wii U looks good for competitive play.

 

[Uffe]

Can someone tell me why Tomadachi LIfe isn't a legit stage in the first place?

Because apparently it's campers paradise. I'm not sure how or why that would be seeing it's only a stage made of going through platforms until you reach the bottom.

 

[supersonicstep]

So I was watching a few Smash 3DS tournament vids, and I got to thinking: Jeez, the tournament rules haven't changed much. Now I just want to say that I DO NOT HATE COMPETITIVE PLAY, but there are some things I think they should put into consideration for Smash 4 competitive play.

First off, the stage choice. Pretty much the only stages I see are Battlefield and the FD forms. Now I know what you're saying, "But the other stages have hazards that effect the gameplay!" Well yes, some stages have some pretty annoying stage mechanics, they can't all be bad. I'm mostly talking about stages with walkoffs. Yes I know that there is no edgeguarding, but isn't the idea of Smash competitive play to show you are the best? If so, you probably wouldn't want to play one type of stage. Here's a list of stages from the 3DS version I think could work:

- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Gerudo Valley (Yes I know half of the stage is blocked sometimes by fire and ice, but it doesn't come from nowhere and is a drastic change of space size.)
- Yoshi's Island (There are no real hazards, and even though there are Fly Guys that carry items, you can just turn them off.)
- Arena Ferox (Again, no real hazards, aside from platforms)
- Boxing Ring (While it does have walkoffs and that giant falling light, it does involve some strategy to get up there and destroy the light before your opponent does)
- Guar Plain (Since the 3DS version doesn't have any real hazards, I think it would work. Also, the pit in the middle could lead to some really epic meteor smashes)
- Tomodachi Life (Again, no hazards, and a very basic layout)
- All FD Forms

This is just my two cents on the matter. So while a lot of stages have some really bad hazards, I think it could work. I mean, it's about being the best in the business! Games and mechanics change. So while this isn't Melee V2, it still needs to be recognized as its own thing.

i agree with Gaur Plain,Reset Bomb Forest and Boxing Ring. If prisim tower is tournemant legal and in the wii u version(i think) halberd is legal why not these

 

[COLINBG]

I only see five stages being usable competitively.
- Omegas/FD
- Battlefiel
- Yoshi
- Lumiose
- Tamadochi

Gerudo Valley (Yes I know half of the stage is blocked sometimes by fire and ice, but it doesn't come from nowhere and is a drastic change of space size.)

There's more than that. Walk-offs are bad because there's no ledge play, off stage play, and it promotes camping. The fire and ice and still an hazard, even if it's a minor one. The bridge breaking can lead to unfair kills. The map is also too big when nothing else is going on.

Arena Ferox (Again, no real hazards, aside from platforms)

The platform setups severely limits gameplay in my opinion. Teching becomes much more powerful than it should be, and you can survive up to ridiculous percents. You also have less range to manoeuvre, which makes landing hits more difficult and renders projectile less rewarding to use. Some people like this stage, but I'm against it.

Boxing Ring (While it does have walkoffs and that giant falling light, it does involve some strategy to get up there and destroy the light before your opponent does)

This is probably the most broken hazardless stage. It's excessively big, it has walk-offs, it has trampolines that allow unfair positional advantage (by getting to the top or dodging a hit), and the area at the top can lead to early KOs. Uthrowing someone and killing him at like 30% is not something you want to be able to do in a competitive stage.

Guar Plain (Since the 3DS version doesn't have any real hazards, I think it would work. Also, the pit in the middle could lead to some really epic meteor smashes)

Out of any stages, this is probably the one I'm the saddest about it not being competitively viable. The music is so good ;( Anyway, once again, it's a pretty big stage and has walk-offs. This is generally enough to ban a stage. However, the big hole in the middle and the three layers of platforms (with ledges) gives a huge advantage to characters with great air mobility (both distance and speed) and great aerials. You'll spending much more time in the air on stages like this. It's a nightmare for Macs, Ganons and Ikes, and it just offers too big of an advantage to Sheik, Diddy, Villager, Fox, etc.



I agree on Tomodachi. It's kind of big, but it's still fairly neutral, and there's nothing you can really abuse in it. I understand why some people don't like it, but as far as competition goes, I don't see too much problems with it.


While Unova is more touchy, I still consider it to be viable too. It has a basic layout, and the attacks from Zekrom or Reshiram are predicatble. You most likely won't get hit by them, but the fire can be disturbing depending on where he puts it. There's also walk-offs, but they're temporary, so it's not as bad as other stages. It's not as passive as FD, but I think we could do more testing on this one, because form my experience so far, it doesn't lead to cheap KOs, and it's still possible to play competitively on it.

 

[Tinkerer]

I like Anther's ruleset for 3DS: Battlefield, FD, and Yoshi's Island as starters, and Ferrox and Prism Tower as counterpicks.

Ferrox is a pretty good stage, it's consistent, has no hazards, and creates a cave of life only in one of its transformations, which soon goes away again anyway. It's barely intrusive, especially if you compare it to some of the legal stages in the Wii U version.

One stage I see coming around sometimes is Reset Bomb Forest, but the second stage of that is so strange and takes so long that I can see why people don't play it. It's not unfair, per se (even the hazard at the bottom isn't very dangerous), but there's almost no characters that can even DO anything on that second stage. Same goes for Paper Mario, due to the third stage.

Tomodachi is a deceptively bad stage. It looks reasonable, but soon gets very unfun to play on as it severely limits any sort of approach options in the air, meaning you're basically doing a very small vertical playfield Final Destination most of the time.

Prism Tower is a fantastic stage and one that I'd like to see return in future Smash Bros. games - it's a simple but interesting travelling stage that never does crazy stuff but makes for varied matches.

I'd love for Tortimer Island to be a legal stage, as it tends to have a great layout and a relatively high ceiling but low floor (which is a rarity), but the fruits, bees, and janky camera make that kind of impossible.

 

[NegaNixx]

My personal stage list in order of competitiveness for the 3DS:

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Prism Tower
3~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Arena Ferox
5~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reset Bomb Forest
Brinstar
Unova Pokemon League
Tomadachi Life
9~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spirit Tracks
Rainbow Road
Tortimer Island
Paper Mario
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Corneria
Mute City
Gaur Plains
Distant Planet
Kongo Jungle

Full List Stage Striking

~The First Three introduce Basic stages with varying platform layouts that stay consistent or predictible throughout the round.
~The next bracket involve stage randomness that does not effect the battle in ways that cause damage.
~The following Four (Rounding out my personal Ideal of 9) introduce telegraphed stage hazards that can be avoided ith relative ease, if one is paying attention. Tomadachi Life, gives a significant boon to those with weak vertical recoveries wit it's not so low blastzone, being so close to the bottom platform. as well as those with good mobility as they can circle camp opponents as they get a lead.