Possible re-implementation of L-canceling, but as a double-edged sword.

[guedes the brawler]

First of all, something i want to make clear from the start:

This is NOT a discussion about auto-canceling. Please don't mention this as this isn't the purpose of this topic, thank you.

Now then, where was i...? Oh, yeah, L-canceling as a double-edged sword. Outside being a totally secret thing in the 2 games it existed, my biggest beef with L-canceling is that it offers no drawback to NOT use it.

I'll give you two examples:

1- Walk or Run? Running is obviously faster, but your attack options on the ground are severely limited: you can only dash attack, pivot grab or up smash (iirc). Walking is surely slower, but you are able to do all of your smashes and tilts, as well as your neutral combo. There are reasons to use either of then, as well as reasons to not use them.

2- Defense. Someone is rushing in to attack you, how do you deal with it? Do you try to shield them? Roll Forward? Roll Backwards? Spotdodge? Airdodge/Wavedash and follow up with a fast aerial? Do you try to attack them before they are able to hit you (if such option exists)?

Each of those options have their advantages and disvantages, from being effective but risky (spotdodge), to being able to distance yourself from the enemy (Roll back) or even to turn defense into offense (both attack options). There are reasons to choose any of those, but each will make the next moments of the game play quite differently.


Now, consider L-canceling. Pressing "shield" when landing after using an aerial wields a 50% Reduction in landing Lag. It's great, and fastens the pace of the game. Now, is there a reason to use it? Yes! But... say, opting to not do it brings no advantage to you, does it? Your landing will be laggy and it ends there.

In other worlds, implementing L-canceling as it was in Melee, is basically saying "do it for every aerial you do", and not L-canceling is just because you either missed it or never knew about it to begin with.


So, since L-canceling is more of a tech for keeping your offense better, why not make it a more deep technique by giving it a double-edge? Namely, something that impacts your defense (after all, you ARE using the shield button here, right?). Side note: this risk-reward setup is one of the reasons i don't want discussion about auto-canceling, as it's the exact opposite idea.


So, after this long post i present to you the ideas i came with, and ask of you: which would be the best solutions for the problem i presented, if L-canceling had been brought back?

1- L-canceling a move will deplete a bit of your shield. This could be proportional to how strong the L-canceling was, and due to that, the shield only takes a small blow if you do connect the attack ( since many attacks have different properties at different times and places). Whether this would break the shield if it's at such point or not, i couldn't decide.

2- Do a small bit of damage with not hitstun to you. You can opt to play safely or take a bit of damage while you combo people. I am not sure if different moves should have a different damage penalty dealt to you, or if they should be a universal one (5%, maybe).


And now, for a different take, is limiting L-canceling with penalties to itself. I'm not sure if that is clear enough, but the examples should make you understand if i failed here...

3- Apply a limit to how much you can L-cancel within a specific time limit. Namely, As soon as you L-cancel, an internal timer starts off, and you only have a small bit of time (maybe around 5 seconds) to continue to use L-canceled aerials, provided that the first L-canceled move hits something.

After this timer ends, another one pops in. this second timer controls the time where you are negated from L-canceling, for example, it could be 10 seconds. After those 10 seconds, you are free to L-cancel again, and as soon as you do, the 1st timer starts again and the cycle repeats itself.

4- Apply a restoration system like shields. L-canceling reduces Lag by 50%, right? Well, use 2 and a row, and the second L-cancel will only cancel 40%, L-cancel one more time and it will now just reduce lag by 30%... So you need to take a break from it to restore the percentage to it's former glory. I'm not sure if there should be some major penalty to akin to Shield breaking in case of overuse...


I'd like input on each of those ideas, and if you have some ideas similar to what i'm trying to achieve here, feel free to suggest it for further discussion. Maybe one day i might try this topic again and add your idea as an option!


Ultimately, i would like to note that the text is of a smaller font and some parts are bigger for some reason. i have no idea why (as the only time i messed with the font was to make the second sentence bigger), so if anyone knows how to fix this...

 

[DireDrop]

Lol, I was just reading your thread on the PM boards. That didn't quite work out.

One of the reason I love Melee and PM is the speed of the neutral game. It's a frantic chase to get a grab, land a shine, or whatever combo starter you may prefer. Tools like L-canceling allow us to do that. It makes a lot of moves safe, which means there isn't much drawback to pressuring your opponent with pokes. And since that's true for both players, we get a game that rewards aggression, which is fun to watch and fun to play.

If you make L-canceling have a drawback of some kind, then players won't be as eager to use that tool to attack each other. Instead, I think it would start functioning more like the super meter in Street Fighter, a resource to be saved and used at just the right time. And that's cool and all... but Street Fighter has other factors that encourage aggression, like a 60 second timer or the fact that the players are forced so close to each other. Smash doesn't have those. It has to rely on the volition of its players to keep things interesting.

I'd rather see another option that you could choose instead of L-canceling. Perhaps non L-canceled aerials could be cancelled into buffered smash attacks. Or maybe there's no L-canceling at all, but you can cancel landing lag with only certain moves like rolls, smash attacks, or shield.

 

[BlitznBurst]

This is why I hate L-Cancelling. It's just a needless mechanic to further lengthen the skill gap between competitive and non-competitive players. It isn't a "deep mechanic" that adds to the gameplay experience. It doesn't make the game more enjoyable to play. It's just frustrating, and is the main reason I can't get into competitive play.

 

[Baskerville]

Why make a mechanic that benefited everyone have drawbacks?

 

[BlitznBurst]

Choices make games more fun and make the distinction between good players and bad players. Arbitrary mechanics like L-Cncelling just give you an extra move to learn for no reason. It doesn't take thought, it doesn't take skill, it doesn't add "depth" to the game. It's just there for the sake of being there.

 

[ryuu seika]

1 and 4 seem like reasonable ideas, the other two seem pretty terrible IMO.
The important thing here is that, as blitz says, a no thought reflex mechanic like L-cancelling has been so far has no actual gameplay benefits and therefore no reason to exist. If L-cancelling is to return, it should require thought in its use.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This is why I hate L-Cancelling. It's just a needless mechanic to further lengthen the skill gap between competitive and non-competitive players. It isn't a "deep mechanic" that adds to the gameplay experience. It doesn't make the game more enjoyable to play. It's just frustrating, and is the main reason I can't get into competitive play.

That's a pretty poor excuse that dealing with a minor technical barrier is preventing you from competing. As for L canceling, there is nothing wrong with it ; it works perfectly fine the way it is, and the reward given for executing an L cancel is justified as it benefits you with additional mobility you wouldn't otherwise had. Coming from a fighting game back ground, it's expected that when you play you should at least have some technical skill;, Street Fighter players in particular experience technical changes I'm most games , with the most recent iteration of the series having Focus Attacks and Focus Attack dash canceling, which is WAY harder than just pressing one button.

L canceling, if it should return, should return as it is. Everyone is searching for some underlying profundity in using something so basic that benefits everyone when there shouldn't be a drawback. Characters who can auto cancel will just be better and just L cancel to put more pressure on a player. I think if you truly want to compete and improve , you should apply yourself and the time given to learn like with anything in life. As far as execution goes it's the last thing you have to worry about, learning to tech, space and DI are fundamentally more important .

Besides, L canceling is simple, just practice.

 

[salaboB]

I'm not sure why L-cancelling needs a drawback not related to what L-cancelling is doing -- shortening delay after a move. Instead, I'd make its drawback be that you get a longer than no-L-cancel delay if you do it badly.

Example skill: Base delay with no L-cancel is .5 seconds.
Perfect L-cancel reduces that to .25 seconds.
Botched L-cancel increases that up to 1 second.

This would just need to watch for attempts at hitting L right before/after the "good" window, and then penalizing your delay from there.

 

[BlitznBurst]

Personally I think the best way to "balance" it would be to allow you to do some things faster while adding a larger delay to other things. By doing this you make it a situational skill that actually requires an understanding of the mechanics rather than mindlessly pressing a button because the game expects you to

 

[Niko Mar]

This is why I hate L-Cancelling. It's just a needless mechanic to further lengthen the skill gap between competitive and non-competitive players. It isn't a "deep mechanic" that adds to the gameplay experience. It doesn't make the game more enjoyable to play. It's just frustrating, and is the main reason I can't get into competitive play.

I completely agree.

 

[MrGamer419]

If L-canceling does return for this game I would like for it to work like in melee and pm and nothing changed

 

[Camsterchief]

I thought of this idea: Lets say youre doing an on going aerial like Fox's forward Air.

If you L-Cancel during that attack, you end that attack. From there, if you have cancelled the attack by the time you land you will have no lag. But if you tried to get too much out of your move and you miss the cancel then you have normal amount of lag. This could lead to some great combos and at the same time might punish the L canceller if the other player is able to find an opening in the cancels.

The reason people loved wave dashes and l cancelling is because it adds such a great skill gap, and the moves are not hard to do at all. Making skill double edged just doesnt make sense to me.

That being said...I don't think L-cancelling should return.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

well i'd think there would'nt be a need for l canceling if moves had less landing lag in general, and as someone who has looked at characters frame data in brawl some attacks at unnecessary amounts of cooldown and landing lag frames.

 

[DireDrop]

I thought of this idea: Lets say youre doing an on going aerial like Fox's forward Air.

If you L-Cancel during that attack, you end that attack. From there, if you have cancelled the attack by the time you land you will have no lag. But if you tried to get too much out of your move and you miss the cancel then you have normal amount of lag. This could lead to some great combos and at the same time might punish the L canceller if the other player is able to find an opening in the cancels.

This is almost exactly what Air Dash Online decided to do. It looked like a brilliant mechanic. I really hope that game sees release someday.

 

[Seraphim.]

I really don't care if it does or doesn't return, but some of you make it seem like L-cancelling is just impossible to learn, it's literally pressing a button.

 

[BlitznBurst]

I really don't care if it does or doesn't return, but some of you make it seem like L-cancelling is just impossible to learn, it's literally pressing a button.

I didn't say it was hard to learn, I said it's an arbitrary skill gap that shouldn't be in the game in the first place and just serves to be needlessly frustrating and I just couldn't be bothered having to put up with it because it contributes absolutely nothing to the game. Yes, wavedashing is a lot more difficult to learn and perfect, but unlike L-Cancelling wavedashing adds an extra layer of strategy and depth to the game that wouldn't be there without it. It doesn't end at just learning the button combinations, you actually have to know when and how to use it. Whereas, yes, L-cancelling is just literally pressing a button.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I didn't say it was hard to learn, I said it's an arbitrary skill gap that shouldn't be in the game in the first place and just serves to be needlessly frustrating and I just couldn't be bothered having to put up with it because it contributes absolutely nothing to the game. Yes, wavedashing is a lot more difficult to learn and perfect, but unlike L-Cancelling wavedashing adds an extra layer of strategy and depth to the game that wouldn't be there without it. It doesn't end at just learning the button combinations, you actually have to know when and how to use it. Whereas, yes, L-cancelling is just literally pressing a button.

which is exactly what i mean to fix. While auto-L-cancelling could be an option, adding more depth to the pre-existing L-canceling would be ideal IMO

 

[pitthekit]

That's a pretty poor excuse that dealing with a minor technical barrier is preventing you from competing. As for L canceling, there is nothing wrong with it ; it works perfectly fine the way it is, and the reward given for executing an L cancel is justified as it benefits you with additional mobility you wouldn't otherwise had. Coming from a fighting game back ground, it's expected that when you play you should at least have some technical skill;, Street Fighter players in particular experience technical changes I'm most games , with the most recent iteration of the series having Focus Attacks and Focus Attack dash canceling, which is WAY harder than just pressing one button.

L canceling, if it should return, should return as it is. Everyone is searching for some underlying profundity in using something so basic that benefits everyone when there shouldn't be a drawback. Characters who can auto cancel will just be better and just L cancel to put more pressure on a player. I think if you truly want to compete and improve , you should apply yourself and the time given to learn like with anything in life. As far as execution goes it's the last thing you have to worry about, learning to tech, space and DI are fundamentally more important .

Besides, L canceling is simple, just practice.

yes and l canceling gives characters like gannondorf a chance to fight... character balance=good???

 

[guedes the brawler]

yes and l canceling gives characters like gannondorf a chance to fight... character balance=good???

But everyone can L-cancel, so while some benfit far more, it still does something to everyone. Specially sinc emost characters have at least one really laggy aerial.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Saying L canceling is bad because it has no negatives is a broken argument.

The same argument could be used to say that Marth's sword should always tipper, or that recoveries should always sweetspot (which was mostly done in Brawl to a generally negative reaction on these boards).

There is a reason to have skill barriers that lead to punishments if they are missed.

 

[SmashShadow]

I think L-Cancelling would be fine as is. I just wish they mapped it to a different action/button other than the shield buttons and for there to be some sort of indicator color or flash that showed that you landed it correctly.