Possible discovery: No damage KO with Vanish

[Xer0]

Ok, so I'm a total noob and I created this account just to post this (I'm not a forum persona) In case I break any rule please point that out.

Just now I was playing against a lvl.9 Little Mac (using sheik obviously) and after losing a life, he knocked me off (I think he had like 2% damage or something from the needles) and when I got back using Vanish, after reappearing, the damageless knockback from vanish pushed him directly down and KO'd him in like a second, he didn't even try to jump back. I assume this is new because I've been reading the forums all day since I have the game and i haven't heard anything about this.

Hope this post is useful
(I forgot to save the replay, sorry)

 

[_Tree]

From what you're saying it sounds like you're just describing the wind-box that vanish has upon reappearance, which has been in the game since Sheik's conception. It's possible its been buffed though. Did it just push him down a bit, with him being able to jump a little after but unable to recover? Or did it shoot him down fast like a spike, killing him instantly?

 

[InfinityCollision]

This reminds me of something I've occasionally seen in the other games. In certain circumstances, CPU opponents simply will not attempt to recover. Sounds like the windbox on Vanish pushed him offstage and for whatever reason the AI didn't react properly. The windbox isn't that strong in my experience, though I haven't been in a situation where it would push them straight down, and since hit doesn't inflict hitstun he could've fought through it with a double jump and up-b anyway.

 

[Xer0]

From what you're saying it sounds like you're just describing the wind-box that vanish has upon reappearance, which has been in the game since Sheik's conception. It's possible its been buffed though. Did it just push him down a bit, with him being able to jump a little after but unable to recover? Or did it shoot him down fast like a spike, killing him instantly?

When I said he died in a second, I meant it literally, it was pretty much a spike, though he fell straight down

This reminds me of something I've occasionally seen in the other games. In certain circumstances, CPU opponents simply will not attempt to recover. Sounds like the windbox on Vanish pushed him offstage and for whatever reason the AI didn't react properly. The windbox isn't that strong in my experience, though I haven't been in a situation where it would push them straight down, and since hit doesn't inflict hitstun he could've fought through it with a double jump and up-b anyway.

I know it shouldn't be a strong push, that's why I posted it. That time it WAS strong, little mac couldn't have recovered.

I haven't been able to recreate it though, tried in training for like half an hour

 

[Judo777]

were you using sheiks custom upb abyss? it spikes on disappear and reappearance. Also between both points.

 

[Xer0]

were you using sheiks custom upb abyss? it spikes on disappear and reappearance. Also between both points.

I was playing with customs and items off

 

[Jackson]

This is interesting. Might warrant further testing.

 

[Xer0]

if found reliable (though i doubt it, I've tried hundreds of times on training) I call dibs on naming

 

[Shack]

if found reliable (though i doubt it, I've tried hundreds of times on training) I call dibs on naming

Sounds like it is just the windbox, might be useful if used in a similar manner as Greninja's UpB when on the edge or guarding.

 

[Xer0]

Sounds like it is just the windbox, might be useful if used in a similar manner as Greninja's UpB when on the edge or guarding.

this was pretty much a damageless spike. little mac was standing on the edge, I warped and he fell straight down to his death, really fast. It was as if the push from the wind was as strong as those attacks that trigger the red effect thingie as they launch the opponent, but it did no damage, nor had little mac been damaged before

 

[Shack]

this was pretty much a damageless spike. little mac was standing on the edge, I warped and he fell straight down to his death, really fast. It was as if the push from the wind was as strong as those attacks that trigger the red effect thingie as they launch the opponent, but it did no damage, nor had little mac been damaged before

Yeah that's what Greninja's UpB does (with like 2% damage). Sometimes it pushes people very far and other times it is a light float. It seems to depend on the current movement/trajectory. I think we just haven't figured out all of the wind box properties yet.

The damage does not matter because wind boxes, Greninja's UpB, Master Core's yell move do their knock back regardless of the current % and really just seem to be effected by the direction the enemy is holding if any.

I can try to play with it tonight to see. It is possible that is was just a glitch. I remember melee had a glitch on Fox's stage that would cause some characters to randomly get spiked right through the middle of it when they were standing on it.

 

[GreySmash]

Yeah that's what Greninja's UpB does (with like 2% damage). Sometimes it pushes people very far and other times it is a light float. It seems to depend on the current movement/trajectory. I think we just haven't figured out all of the wind box properties yet.

The damage does not matter because wind boxes, Greninja's UpB, Master Core's yell move do their knock back regardless of the current % and really just seem to be effected by the direction the enemy is holding if any.

I can try to play with it tonight to see. It is possible that is was just a glitch. I remember melee had a glitch on Fox's stage that would cause some characters to randomly get spiked right through the middle of it when they were standing on it.

I don't think it's a glitch at all. The second part of Sheik's up b has a hitbox close to the center and a windbox further out. The effect of the windbox is likely strongest when it hits just barely outside of the hitbox range for actual damage. I'm guessing what happened here is that OP hit Lil' Mac with the strongest point of the windbox and it was enough to gimp him out of recovery range.

With dedication, it might be useful. However, the timing appears very tight and pretty unsafe. It will more likely be something that accidentally helps Sheik out, but a welcome addition nonetheless in my opinion. I've definitely benefited from the windbox pushing opponents away right before they land an fsmash on me. Good stuff.

 

[Xer0]

I don't think it's a glitch at all. The second part of Sheik's up b has a hitbox close to the center and a windbox further out. The effect of the windbox is likely strongest when it hits just barely outside of the hitbox range for actual damage. I'm guessing what happened here is that OP hit Lil' Mac with the strongest point of the windbox and it was enough to gimp him out of recovery range.

With dedication, it might be useful. However, the timing appears very tight and pretty unsafe. It will more likely be something that accidentally helps Sheik out, but a welcome addition nonetheless in my opinion. I've definitely benefited from the windbox pushing opponents away right before they land an fsmash on me. Good stuff.

It wasn't a gimp though, little mac mas standing on the stage

 

[Darklink401]

That seems so cool XP

So wait, he was standing on the stage, you recovered, and he got pushed OFF THE STAGE and TO HIS DEATH? XD


Maybe it holds the same properties as Jiggly's down special.

 

[Shack]

I tried a bunch of different ways to replicate this and it sounds like it was a random fluke. The only thing I think possible is if Lil Mac pressed a button during the windbox frames. Whatever button/direction he pressed might have caused the windbox to spaz him out before anyone could react to what was going on.

 

[Gicks]

yea i had this happen once it didint k0 but did a massive knock back more than normal, i think it may be a certain angle or even certain fighter that may trigger it to over calculate it sometimes

 

[Xer0]

yea i had this happen once it didint k0 but did a massive knock back more than normal, i think it may be a certain angle or even certain fighter that may trigger it to over calculate it sometimes

nice to know I'm not crazy

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

You would have to test it out against a human opponent who is actively trying to survive, also pick a character that isn't little mac to test it on, that character dies the moment he goes off the stage involuntarily. Because what it sounds like is happening is the windbox is pushing little mac off stage, and the ai isn't responding and just letting little mac fall offstage and die.