Poor Fox

[1337marth]

He is going to be low tier, because he was top tier in Melee, but how sad.
Who Agrees or disagrees?

 

[IllidR]

Umm.. this doesn't really deserve it's own thread. Try posting in the Fox thread in Character Discussion.

 

[Xaron Fisk]

Don't know, but I suspect they did something to his reflector. It might be a bit slower than before, which would be a huge blow to him even if they didn't change anything else.

 

[Demon_machinE]

He is going to be low tier, because he was top tier in Melee, but how sad.
Who Agrees or disagrees?

I think he'll still be one of the best characters. I doubt theyll nerf his upsmash since they didnt do that for melee.

He does seem to fall slower in the videos though, which annoys the living **** out of me because its an obvious nerf.

Pikachu and kirby still look like bad characters by the way, but we'll have to see.

Methinks fox wont be top tier, but he'll be up there.

Oh and just for the newbs reading this thread im gonna point something out right now, it is complete truth.

Tier lists. are NOT character rankings

The tier list does not apply to you unless you play at the top tournament level

I think pit will be the best character in the game personally due to projectiles, multiple jumps, and 2 disjointed hitboxes.

 

[Unknownlight]

He is going to be low tier, because he was top tier in Melee, but how sad.
Who Agrees or disagrees?

I don't understand that logic.

 

[Demon_machinE]

I don't understand that logic.

It stems from the observation that kirby and pika who were once extremly broken and powerful characters in ssb64 were nerfed horribly for melee.

 

[Unknownlight]

Ahh...I see.

 

[Knifey McStab]

ness used to be the best if you can imagine that

 

[Che_Lab]

fox was also high tier in ssb64... so yeah chances are he will be nerfed.. im planning on using starwolf if hes in there =/

 

[Knifey McStab]

oh man, i hope marth gets nerfed bad. i hope you can damage him through his sword lol

 

[Kirby knight]

Fox shall get the Kirby Melee treatment. >_>

 

[Winston]

Okay, get your ssb64 knowledge straight.

Fox was just as good as Kirby and Pika in the hands of a skilled player. and ness was NOT the best. He could do some very impressive stuff once he landed a hit, but his approach was pretty lacking. Falcon was better than ness and almost as good as pika.

Fox was amazing in ssb64 and is amazing in melee.

Therefore, maybe fox is an exception to the nerf rule. The thing is, kirby and pika were broken for noob/low level players, and ness was really good (throw > spike) at that level also, so they got nerfed. Fox, however, doesn't show his brokenness until you know advanced techs, and those players generally don't complain.

So, it might be that marth gets nerfed, but fox does not.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't know, but I suspect they did something to his reflector. It might be a bit slower than before, which would be a huge blow to him even if they didn't change anything else.

he has a reflector button like thing

they gave everyone the toadstool jump, which is a better or worse reflecter

 

[Kirby knight]

So you don't feel that anything needs to be changed about fox? It's obvious that some changes have happend though the trailers(but some of what we seen in the trailers could very will change upon release.)

 

[Demon_machinE]

ness used to be the best if you can imagine that

Far from it, unless a godly ssb64 player plays ness, anyone can beat him, especially me. I stomp all over ness mains (literally, stomp with capt falcon) online.

hes ranked too high, people debate this because basically once hes off the edge, he's dead. Hes too easy to edgeguard.

But yes, he was top tier hehe, kirby and pika fox and falcon are still better chars in my own personal opinion, which is shared by a lot of well known players actually.

Fox was just as good as Kirby and Pika in the hands of a skilled player. and ness was NOT the best. He could do some very impressive stuff once he landed a hit, but his approach was pretty lacking. Falcon was better than ness and almost as good as pika.

edit : Lol just saw this post. Funny stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wTxu98f1_c

Dylan_Tnga got OWNED ^^

Superboomfan is too good O.o

 

[Hong]

Meh. From Sakurai's perspective, Ness would be overpowered in SSB64. God, the situation was so bad that Nintendo Power even stated Kirby, Pikachu and Ness were broken. Of course after years of advanced gamers taking control this may or may not be the case. Though they didn't dive that far, which is why all three got nerfed.

Fox's fall speed is already enough to take a huge hit. I wouldn't be surprised if they also decreased his running speed. If they instate a minimum Deflector duration, then we'll also lose continuous waveshines. No matter how much power Fox keeps at this point, these alone might be a bit too much of a nerf but we'll have to see.

 

[Takeshi245]

Well, it does look like Fox is nerfed, but I don't think he'll be as bad as you say, 1337marth. Like others have said, Fox is deadly when you use advanced techniques. Since many people that play Smash don't know about them, they don't think Fox is much of a problem.

 

[Ess oh Aytch]

He could still be high. If his speed remains the same, and even if his upsmash is nerfed a bit, he'll still be one of the best if his shine game isn't nerfed. Whoever is top I'll use, since I tier *****. Unless it's like, Diddy Kong. **** that.

 

[Knifey McStab]

however, his recovery is faster which kind of makes up for fall speed

 

[specialsauce]

think he'll be pretty much the same with a few changes here and there but overall it wont be a big deal cuz other characters will be getting changes too its all part of balancing the characters out. those people who use fox as their main should be able to get over what ever changes have been made for better or for worse. I dont believe that all the sucky characters will be good and the good ones will be bad thats stupid to think that, they're really trying to balance characters out which will allow for us to see a more varitey of characters winning in tourneys

 

[Ess oh Aytch]

I doubt Sakurai is sitting down and pondering how he could balance out characters. Being Nintendo, they'll probably sit down and think about how they could make the game look the best. I doubt Sakurai was thinking of flatland drillshine infinites when he made Fox for Melee. That's just how it went. Players will take the game much farther than Sakurai ever thought. It will be up to them to show which characters are good, and which aren't.

 

[susu_atari]

This time around, Sakurai has a team of pros helping him test. The tiers will be close together, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[Kirby knight]

I doubt Sakurai is sitting down and pondering how he could balance out characters. Being Nintendo, they'll probably sit down and think about how they could make the game look the best. I doubt Sakurai was thinking of flatland drillshine infinites when he made Fox for Melee. That's just how it went. Players will take the game much farther than Sakurai ever thought. It will be up to them to show which characters are good, and which aren't.

I'm pretty sure that Sakurai said himself that he's making the game "balance in mind" That's why he has testers that are very skilled in order to make SSBB as balanced as possible.

 

[Hong]

however, his recovery is faster which kind of makes up for fall speed

I believe improved recovery is global. Unless these eyes play tricks on me, it seems every character has more range or more speed on their B-Up. Perhaps Sakurai wants to extend longevity.

 

[Demon_machinE]

I'm pretty sure that Sakurai said himself that he's making the game "balance in mind" That's why he has testers that are very skilled in order to make SSBB as balanced as possible.

Balance in mind does not mean he is balancing the characters in a 1v1 setting no matter how you look at it. People confuse tier lists with character rankings, without realizing that they probably do not play smash competitivly enough for the tier list to apply to them.

When you are outside the community, playing your own rules with your friends, you develop an entirely sepperate metagame. Surely fox marth peach and especially sheik will do better than others, but lacking the near perfection of control over your character that pro smashers have the game for the top tier chars changes entirely and opens them up for attack from lower tiers.

I believe sakurai noticed the obvious flaws in certain characters and is trying to fix them, whilst he may also nerf some of the more abusable characters from melee, like he did in the past with ssb64.

So in the sense he is trying to make the characters more on an even ground, but there is still going to be a tier list in competitive play, and it depends on the competitive metagame, not what sakurai decided to do with his characters.

Remember, he has no idea which techniques are going to be used, how theyll be used, what will be exploited... etc. All these complicated things discovered over time contribute to the tier list. So while sakurai may be giving weaker characters a new edge, I would definatly think its going to far to say he is ''balancing'' the game, as it is meant for a wild party-game type enjoyement anyway and has no need for balance in a 1v1 or 2v2 tournament setting.

Said it before and Ill say it again : the tier list doesn't apply to you unless you play at the top level of the competitive metagame.

Which many people do, I would consider myself to be playing at the top level despite lacking the skill to beat the best players around me, I can still crush most smash players in melee.

But many people (casuals) do not play smash at this level, and therefore are exempted from the tier list and its applications.

 

[Takeshi245]

I believe improved recovery is global. Unless these eyes play tricks on me, it seems every character has more range or more speed on their B-Up. Perhaps Sakurai wants to extend longevity.

It does seem that way. Proof: Look at Mario's Up-B in the "You Must Recover!" update.

 

[Salaad]

I think he pretty much balanced the game by giving every character a meteor smash..

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

How are you guys judging his fall speed in a video that has no fast falling?

If you have played Melee recently, he falls at the same speed without using fast falls.

 

[Demon_machinE]

It does seem that way. Proof: Look at Mario's Up-B in the "You Must Recover!" update.

I take great issue with this. Marios recovery distance has not changed, maybe slightly but it has always gone a great distance.

If you think it's shorter in melee than the screenshots you saw for the YOU MUST RECOVER! update, then you dont know how to perfectly sweetspot and should go practice that.

 

[Takeshi245]

I take great issue with this. Marios recovery distance has not changed, maybe slightly but it has always gone a great distance.

If you think it's shorter in melee than the screenshots you saw for the YOU MUST RECOVER! update, then you dont know how to perfectly sweetspot and should go practice that.

It looks ever so slightly longer than in Melee. Oh, and it's weird how you assume I can't perfectly sweetspot just because of my judgement of one screenshot.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

Middle tier = everyone = balance.. or so we can all hope.

-Onyx

 

[Ophelius]

We can't do tiers until the game actually comes out, dimwit.

 

[IllidR]

Middle tier = everyone = balance.. or so we can all hope.

-Onyx

Ya, we're all hoping for it.. chances though, not likely.

 

[Takeshi245]

Ya, we're all hoping for it.. chances though, not likely.

More like never.

 

[Demon_machinE]

Middle tier = everyone = balance.. or so we can all hope.

-Onyx

Stop being dumb. Tiers aren't character rankings. They don't apply to 90% of smash players who play melee since they dont play at the same level as the competitive metagame which created the tier list.

Honnestly. No one in this section save a few people understand what a tier list is.

 

[Stuhddabahkz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wTxu98f1_c

Best SSB64 Ness EVER.

I think since Mr. McCloud doesn't know his spells from Melee anymore (magically conjuring laser guns and reflectors) I think his reflector might not activate in one frame. Though his blaster is probably the same. He basically pulled it out a holster anyway, except it didn't exist.

 

[l!l]

Nerf Fox! Nerf Fox straight to hell!

And bring back the N64 Kirby.

 

[Demon_machinE]

Nerf Fox! Nerf Fox straight to hell!

And bring back the N64 Kirby.

Boo! I think kirby should be better, but he was beyond broken in ssb64. Way worse than fox in melee since most of fox's broken techniques take AZN type finger skills.

 

[Aryman]

What happened Dylan? You get banned again? Those were some funny videos of you getting owned on YouTube.

 

[gnosis]

Stop being dumb. Tiers aren't character rankings. They don't apply to 90% of smash players who play melee since they dont play at the same level as the competitive metagame which created the tier list.

Honnestly. No one in this section save a few people understand what a tier list is.

Don't be so condescending towards casual players. They deal with imbalance too.At any level, it's obvious that Kirby blows and Sheik is stupid good.

If tier lists only applied to the top level, than the rankings we see from the early years of Melee (when the game bore little resemblance to the game we play today; that is, the top level was at a level we'd consider nooby nowadays) should bear no resemblance to the tiers we see today. This is because, at the much higher level of play that we have today, our tiers shouldn't apply to them since they don't play at the top level of the current metagame.

So let's look atthe very first SWF tier list.

As you can see, there's only a few notable changes. Luigi and Mario are higher than usual, Captain Falcon is shockingly low, and there's a few characters who have moved a few spots since then, but haven't really changed tiers. Zelda I don't count because her placement used to, supposedly, be influenced by Sheik's, so the two Zeldas aren't really comparable.

That's surprisingly few changes, considering you're idea that a player has to be at the top level of the current metagame for the tier list to apply to them.

Yes, as skill increases, characters are re-evaluated and adjusted accordingly. One noticeable example is Roy in low level to top level. For the most part though, there's a handful of characters that are always good and a handful of characters that are always trash, and our current tier list is surprisingly accurate at any level.

My point is, it's not only top players who have earned the right to gripe about tiers, because of this strange idea that they're the only ones who have to deal with them. Imbalance is encountered at every level, even if the tiers of characters may differ a bit between the tiers of players.