Polybash 03/01/14 Montreal 64 Thread

[Nintendude]

m2k asked for a split? what a coward

 

[Karajan]

m2k asked for a split? what a coward

He was actually passed out for about 30 minutes. He was woken up and told to play his tournament match. I think he just wanted to keep sleeping

 

[Shears]

Thats a good excuse, he was too tired to win 64. The melee boards must be drooling over him now.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Nah m2k wasn't scared, he just didn't want to be there.

He didn't john about being tired or anything when i beat him either, he was cool about it.

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah but I mean come on

splitting is the actual devil

 

[Karajan]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQY3BL0yGbvXSlzWnMZZZ1WN8C1uAv-jz

 

[Shears]

You can't counterpick a stage you already won on. In Game 4 of Z-M2K, M2K would've needed to pick congo or stay on dreamland, peachs was not an option for him.

 

[Sangoku]

"Pas la Z" lol.

 

[Karajan]

You can't counterpick a stage you already won on. In Game 4 of Z-M2K, M2K would've needed to pick congo or stay on dreamland, peachs was not an option for him.

If the opponent didn't challenge it, then it is a gentlemans. If the opponent didn't know enough of the rules to challenge it, then that is their punishment.

 

[Mr Bushido]

I was aware, I just knew I would win.

 

[Nintendude]

where are the videos?

 

[rpotts]

You can't counterpick a stage you already won on. In Game 4 of Z-M2K, M2K would've needed to pick congo or stay on dreamland, peachs was not an option for him.

I don't see how DSR can possibly be enforced in a best of 5 set with only 3 legal stages. By game 4 and 5 your only options are to pick stages you lost on, which defeats the purpose of counterpicks entirely.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

I completely agree with rpotts. That rule is really dumb.

Chain-ace decided to disregard that rule at the last yestercades tourney and no one complained lol.

where are the videos?

Steve posted the link up there.

 

[Shears]

I agree that with only 3 legal stages its stupid, but in a set I played against Nintendude I had to go back to Dreamland where I lost or go to Congo because I couldn't counter pick Peachs a second time. If you lose on Dreamland, counterpick Peachs and win, get counterpicked to Congo and win, you have a 2-1 lead and have to play the rest of the set on Dreamland where you may lose both times and end up losing the set 3-2. Its stupid and I don't agree, but the current ruleset forces this. I agree with Dreamland for the first game, but after that it should be losers choice between any 3 stages without restriction.

Do we have to make another poll to change he rules?

 

[Karajan]

Do we have to make another poll to change he rules?

This tournament had about 20 people in it. It started at 8:00pm. It ended around 2:00am.

It should not take 6 hours to eliminate 19 people.

With 5 stocks and double elimination, this needs to be enforced strictly:
If you do not arrive to play your set after 15* minutes of being called, then you forfeit that match.
* If you are playing N other smash games, you get 15*(1+N) minutes. 15 minutes for the forfeit time of the first game, Then 8 minutes to play those games (they have timers) and 7 minutes to travel between the games.
** If you are commentating a match elsewhere you get 15 minutes from when you are personally notified (headphones used while commentating can prevent a user from getting their name called). If the TO fails to inform you that you were called while you are commentating, if that TO is playing elsewhere in the tournament then they are DQ'd.

Or we can do 4 stocks, single elimination, dreamland only. Then it might take half as long

 

[Cobrevolution]

i love the feeling when a smash tournament is running on time.

i do think at some venues and tourneys (especially large ones like apex/zenith), there should be a stricter dq rule and less leniency given to people who have notable names. but you have to allot time for people to eat, for instance. maybe once the tourney hits a certain point - like round right before LQ and the round of wq - you take a 30-40 minute break that allows people to grab food and chomp.

regarding commentary, you simply HAVE to let the commentators know they have a match to play; not doing so is a very poor move - i mean, pete got dq'd at apex because he was commentating even though he was told they'd come and find him.

 

[Shears]

This tournament had about 20 people in it. It started at 8:00pm. It ended around 2:00am.

It should not take 6 hours to eliminate 19 people.

With 5 stocks and double elimination, this needs to be enforced strictly:
If you do not arrive to play your set after 15* minutes of being called, then you forfeit that match.
* If you are playing N other smash games, you get 15*(1+N) minutes. 15 minutes for the forfeit time of the first game, Then 8 minutes to play those games (they have timers) and 7 minutes to travel between the games.
** If you are commentating a match elsewhere you get 15 minutes from when you are personally notified (headphones used while commentating can prevent a user from getting their name called). If the TO fails to inform you that you were called while you are commentating, if that TO is playing elsewhere in the tournament then they are DQ'd.

Or we can do 4 stocks, single elimination, dreamland only. Then it might take half as long

Lovely Xanadu took 2.5 hours for 6 people. M2K showed up 30 minutes late and was given a first round bye, so once he showed up, there were 5 sets left to play that took a total of 2 hours. With two of those sets (WF, LS) being played at the same time. DQs and timers need to be enforced. This is getting out of hand.

 

[Cobrevolution]

nah **** timers.

tourneys don't take long because sets are long, tourneys take long because people don't play their matches in a timely fashion. especially when the players are in more than one event. it really comes down to how much time people spend playing friendlies, talking to others, eating, having cigarettes, wandering around the venue, trying to find somewhere to ACTUALLY eat, waiting for an open television, warming up, etcetcetc.

in the EXTREME case of m2k, then yes, perhaps the set will take longer than the time spent waiting. which did not happen this past weekend in montreal, from the videos i saw, so...

as it stands, you have to be an extremely strict TO, but it's hard to keep tabs on where all the players are at all times - especially if there are players there with whom you are unfamiliar. additionally, extremely cramped, loud spaces make it hard for people to hear their names called.

this is why, when i go to yestercades events, i try to help chain ace out as much as possible with the bracket, find players so they can finish their sets, advance it when he's playing, that sort of thing. i know kero does the same. this really helps make a tourney run smooth.

 

[Karajan]

nah **** timers.

tourneys don't take long because sets are long, tourneys take long because people don't play their matches in a timely fashion. especially when the players are in more than one event. it really comes down to how much time people spend playing friendlies, talking to others, eating, having cigarettes, wandering around the venue, trying to find somewhere to ACTUALLY eat, waiting for an open television, warming up, etcetcetc.

in the EXTREME case of m2k, then yes, perhaps the set will take longer than the time spent waiting. which did not happen this past weekend in montreal, from the videos i saw, so...

as it stands, you have to be an extremely strict TO, but it's hard to keep tabs on where all the players are at all times - especially if there are players there with whom you are unfamiliar. additionally, extremely cramped, loud spaces make it hard for people to hear their names called.

this is why, when i go to yestercades events, i try to help chain ace out as much as possible with the bracket, find players so they can finish their sets, advance it when he's playing, that sort of thing. i know kero does the same. this really helps make a tourney run smooth.

If I had a tournament, the rule would be NO FRIENDLIES until the tournament is over. Then people will actually try to make the tournament go faster so they can play more.

 

[B-Town]

This tournament had about 20 people in it. It started at 8:00pm. It ended around 2:00am.

It should not take 6 hours to eliminate 19 people.

With 5 stocks and double elimination, this needs to be enforced strictly:
If you do not arrive to play your set after 15* minutes of being called, then you forfeit that match.
* If you are playing N other smash games, you get 15*(1+N) minutes. 15 minutes for the forfeit time of the first game, Then 8 minutes to play those games (they have timers) and 7 minutes to travel between the games.
** If you are commentating a match elsewhere you get 15 minutes from when you are personally notified (headphones used while commentating can prevent a user from getting their name called). If the TO fails to inform you that you were called while you are commentating, if that TO is playing elsewhere in the tournament then they are DQ'd.

Or we can do 4 stocks, single elimination, dreamland only. Then it might take half as long

Nick's tournaments just run slow. The last one went til 3am and was 16 people. I was never prompted to play a match, I had to go look at the bracket and see what to play myself. Doubles was also running simultaneously

 

[Sedda]

dude kero you could've won with fox np. nice vids

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Lol thanks man, i appreciate the confidence. Don't sleep on these guys though.

Even the randoms at this tourney were solid af.

 

[Maliki]

Honestly Kero isnt even good probably one of the worst players on the east coast if not worst.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Honestly Kero isnt even good probably one of the worst players on the east coast if not worst.

yo tell tommy to upload the vids wtf is taking so long lol

 

[Maliki]

yo tell tommy to upload the vids wtf is taking so long lol

Lol I totally forgot about those. He probably did too. You tell him.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Lol he didn't forgot. I ask him everyday, he's just a lazy punk.

Actually Idk why i even care lol i think there's only like 2 or 3 left and they aren't even that good.

 

[Maliki]

Lol he didn't forgot. I ask him everyday, he's just a lazy punk.

Actually Idk why i even care lol i think there's only like 2 or 3 left and they aren't even that good.

They still should be uploaded. Commentary is great. Fun matches that should be seen.

 

[B Link]

Did you guys play any matches vs M2K on hyrule? That's the quintessential M2K map

 

[The Star King]

I would go Link in that scenario

 

[Sedda]

Link? Don't be ridiculous!

Why counter M2K with a legit rule if we can just ban the stage!

 

[Nintendude]

I don't see how DSR can possibly be enforced in a best of 5 set with only 3 legal stages. By game 4 and 5 your only options are to pick stages you lost on, which defeats the purpose of counterpicks entirely.

It's not true DSR. The rule is supposed to state that if you pick a stage from the counterpick stage list and win on it, you can't pick it again. Dreamland is exempt from DSR since it's the default stage.

 

[rpotts]

It's not true DSR. The rule is supposed to state that if you pick a stage from the counterpick stage list and win on it, you can't pick it again. Dreamland is exempt from DSR since it's the default stage.

Game 1 - I lose on DL
Game 2 - I CP Peach's and win
Game 3 - Opponenent CPs Congo and they win
Game 4 - I can't CP Peach's thus leaving myself to pick from 2 stages I've already lost on

I don't agree

 

[Cobrevolution]

well if you don't adhere to that rule


game 1 - i win on dL
game 2 - you cp peach's and win
game 3 - i cp congo and win
game 4 - you cp peach's again and win
game 5 - i can cp dL or congo, both of which i have already won on, putting you at a disadvantage anyway if you're uncomfortable on those stages


your thought process shouldn't be "i lost there already and will likely do so again", it should be "how close was the game? if i switch characters would i have a better chance? if he switches characters would i have a better chance? did i figure out his playstyle towards the end of the game? would i be able to take the game if i change this or react to that accordingly? did he get lucky on congo?" etcetcetcetc

everyone's strongest stage should be dreamland, in my opinion - not because of personal bias, but out of prudence: it's the starter stage, default first stage played in a lot of tourneys, no reason NOT to learn it and its nuances. you should not bank on counterpicking stages to win, because if you lose the first game, you're at a disadvantage automatically

the better you are at dreamland, the higher chance you have of winning the first game, and thus dictating the rest of the counterpicks. further, because it is exempt from not being picked, you can always go back there with a different character or matchup

also if you can't play well on 2 out of 3 stages you should practice on them and learn them.

(not directed directly at you, rpotts, but more of a general statement for everyone)

 

[KeroKeroppi]

who even thinks about stuff like that rob

just play the game

****

nah i kid

at first i was against this cp rule, then I thought about it, and if you can only win on 33% of the stages then you shouldn't really be winning the set anyway

having said that, there are very few things i have strong feelings about, the ssb ruleset not being one of them

if someone wanted to present a counter argument it would be very easy to change my mind on this lol

long post is long

your mom

peace

Edit: ya know long post really isn't that long

average length post is average length

 

[Maliki]

who even thinks about stuff like that rob

just play the game

****

nah i kid

at first i was against this cp rule, then I thought about it, and if you can only win on 33% of the stages then you shouldn't really be winning the set anyway

having said that, there are very few things i have strong feelings about, the ssb ruleset not being one of them

if someone wanted to present a counter argument it would be very easy to change my mind on this lol

long post is long

your mom

peace

Edit: ya know long post really isn't that long

average length post is average length

You are a girl.

 

[rpotts]

well if you don't adhere to that rule

game 1 - i win on dL
game 2 - you cp peach's and win
game 3 - i cp congo and win
game 4 - you cp peach's again and win
game 5 - i can cp dL or congo, both of which i have already won on, putting you at a disadvantage anyway if you're uncomfortable on those stages

Being at a disadvantage for game 5 is expected, it's their counterpick and ultimately it's because you lost game 1.

your thought process shouldn't be "i lost there already and will likely do so again", it should be "how close was the game? if i switch characters would i have a better chance? if he switches characters would i have a better chance? did i figure out his playstyle towards the end of the game? would i be able to take the game if i change this or react to that accordingly? did he get lucky on congo?" etcetcetcetc

Well, duh, obviously there are many factors going in to stage selection and I'm not implying that it's impossible to win a game on a stage you've already lost on, I just don't agree with a counterpick system which forces you to counterpick to a stage you've lost on. At that point it's no longer a counterpick by choice, but by force, defeating the purpose of a counterpick system, in my opinion. If Hyrule was still legal it'd be easier but a 3 legal stage system is constricting.

everyone's strongest stage should be dreamland, in my opinion - not because of personal bias, but out of prudence: it's the starter stage, default first stage played in a lot of tourneys, no reason NOT to learn it and its nuances. you should not bank on counterpicking stages to win, because if you lose the first game, you're at a disadvantage automatically

It's clear that some matchups are very difficult on DL and it's not always practical just to tell someone, "Just get better at DL, I'm sure your Link can take Pika and Falcon there no problem!" Being at a disadvantage from losing game 1 shouldn't mean a near-insurmountable advantage for the winner.

also if you can't play well on 2 out of 3 stages you should practice on them and learn them.

at first i was against this cp rule, then I thought about it, and if you can only win on 33% of the stages then you shouldn't really be winning the set anyway

You'd still have to win game 5 on your opponents CP to win the set, so 2/3 or stages as long as you don't gentleman's to Zebes or something.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

lol i forgot that all games start on DL

nvm i change my mind, i'm against the rule again lol

 

[Cobrevolution]

Being at a disadvantage for game 5 is expected, it's their counterpick and ultimately it's because you lost game 1.

yes. so it's a non issue. if you don't want to be disadvantaged, don't lose game 1. you shouldn't be given the overall edge for losing on the neutral stage without stage/character counterpicking.

Well, duh, obviously there are many factors going in to stage selection and I'm not implying that it's impossible to win a game on a stage you've already lost on, I just don't agree with a counterpick system which forces you to counterpick to a stage you've lost on. At that point it's no longer a counterpick by choice, but by force, defeating the purpose of a counterpick system, in my opinion. If Hyrule was still legal it'd be easier but a 3 legal stage system is constricting.

so what's the alternative? being able to counterpick a stage you've already won on? which would lead to an example like the one i gave in my first post.

It's clear that some matchups are very difficult on DL and it's not always practical just to tell someone, "Just get better at DL, I'm sure your Link can take Pika and Falcon there no problem!" Being at a disadvantage from losing game 1 shouldn't mean a near-insurmountable advantage for the winner.

that's why the loser is allowed to dictate the stage first and pick his character second. if you're character locked, well, that isn't the ruleset's problem, is it?

but yes, it comes down to improving at dreamland to make sure you don't get the automatic disadvantage by losing game 1.

and if you play a character who is significantly weaker on dreamland, why should your opponent be punished for your inability or refusal to follow through on the (in my opinion) most important, more effective part of the counterpick: the matchup part?

 

[Nintendude]

The idea behind the rule is that if you don't enforce it and your best stage is from the CP list, the only way the other player can win the set is if they manage to win game 1 or if they can beat you on your CP. DL is considered to be the overall fairest stage in this ruleset. It's the "default," per se, and a player should have to win a majority of the games on this stage to be considered better, unless of course, your opponent sucks and you manage to beat him on his own counterpick.

 

[rpotts]

yes. so it's a non issue. if you don't want to be disadvantaged, don't lose game 1. you shouldn't be given the overall edge for losing on the neutral stage without stage/character counterpicking.

The issue is DSR64 forces you into a spot where you have to counterpick from a "stages I've already lost on" set in bo5. No DSR avoids this, in the issue you gave the person who lost game 1 is still disadvantaged going into game 5 (which is reasonable,) but never in the set was someone forced to pick a stage they'd lost on.

so what's the alternative? being able to counterpick a stage you've already won on? which would lead to an example like the one i gave in my first post.

The alternatives include no DSR which, in my opinion, is not near as bad as a "counterpick" system which your game 4/5 CPs are demonstrably against your favor. You could also argue for DL only since the general consensus here is DL is the most neutral and allowing your opponent to go to the other 2 legal stages multiple times is bad or unfair. Lastly you could add Hyrule (or other stages) back to the CP list and enforce DSR since there would be enough stages to still have options going into the later games. In a 4 or more legal stagelist you could possibly have bans, not sure.

that's why the loser is allowed to dictate the stage first and pick his character second. if you're character locked, well, that isn't the ruleset's problem, is it?

Advanced Slobs for character selection is fine, this is a discussion on DSR.

but yes, it comes down to improving at dreamland to make sure you don't get the automatic disadvantage by losing game 1.

Whether you have DSR or not losing game 1 is clearly a disadvantage, as it should be.

and if you play a character who is significantly weaker on dreamland, why should your opponent be punished for your inability or refusal to follow through on the (in my opinion) most important, more effective part of the counterpick: the matchup part?

Character is irrelevant here, your opponent is clearly not punished for winning game 1, even if you get to CP and win on Congo or Peach's twice your opponent still gets to select any stage for game 5, which is a fair advantage going into the last game in a tied 2-2 set.

The idea behind the rule is that if you don't enforce it and your best stage is from the CP list, the only way the other player can win the set is if they manage to win game 1 or if they can beat you on your CP. DL is considered to be the overall fairest stage in this ruleset. It's the "default," per se, and a player should have to win a majority of the games on this stage to be considered better, unless of course, your opponent sucks and you manage to beat him on his own counterpick.

We've established that winning game 1 should be very important since it's on the neutral stage and should help establish the flow of the set. If you lose game 1 you should be at a disadvantage. If the argument is DL is the most fair and losing two games on one of the other 2 legal stages is bad, why not just make the tourney DL only? Seriously, we have 3 stages here, if 1 of them is clearly the most fair and produces the best and most accurate results then enforce it, if not allow the players to actually counterpick stages to their advantage.