Pokemon Trainer vs. Falco

[Retro Gaming]

I played Enochout a bit, albit a little laggy. Not so bad for Illinois-California, though.

Hopefully I gave PT a fair showing and he can post a bit of his impressions.

 

[Enochuout]

Just played Retro Gaming. I can't be certain because the lag was pretty awful, but it seemed like Ivysuar can get out of the chain grab at much earlier percentages than I had thought. Other than that, most of what has been said here still seemed pretty accurate.

If someone can test Ivy and the chain grab in person, it'd be nice to know. Thanks.

 

[Charizard92]

Wait, how did the match go and who won?

 

[Enochuout]

I don't recall exactly since I was more just having some fun. He won a good number of matches though. I wasn't able to use proper lasering (lag, *sigh*), and he took great advantage of that with his Ivysuar. If what I said about Ivy being able to escape the chain grab is in fact true, then he has much more potential in the matchup. Like mentioned in one of my above posts, Ivy can rack up some great damage with ftilt, jab, and neutral B. I didn't think Ivy had much potential to get the kill (and perhaps he doesn't, could just be the lag), but I died to his fsmash a few times.

Even in the lag, I had no problem recovering against Charizard. I did however endure a nasty few flamethrowers utilized just at the edge. I even died to it once. Might be a good tool for you guys since it can take Falco's jump away and there is potential for us to illusion below the edge on accident.

It looked like he didn't have much experience with Squirtle, so that aspect of our matches won't add much to the discussion.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Aha. Squirtle's hard to use in lag, too. But yeah, he's my worst.

Enochuout pretty much said everything. Ivysaur has a really easy time of it escaping from the chain grab for some reason, and it was consistent. I managed to get out with Charizard and Squirtle like once or twice because of lag, but Ivysaur got out like six or seven times. All I did was DI up and attempt to jump. Either Falco needs to be REALLY strict with the timing versus Ivysaur, or Ivysaur can get out after maybe two or three.

Ivysaur has the potential, it's just hard to get Falco in a position that lets you get the Fsmash off. Like eGale said on the Pokemon Trainer boards, Usmash can help as a prediction piece versus Phantasm.

Early edge-guarding attempts with Charizard were unsuccesful and Phantasm really does make it risky. Either set yourself for a Bair if he tries to recover on the stage, or wait him out. If you land Flamethrower, you can expect Reflector after it, so as you cancel the attack you should probably hold shield. If you shield the Reflector it leaves Falco wide open for a grab. But like he said, Falco's really suseceptible to Flamethrower as an edgeguard, similar to Link.

As far as I can tell about the Phantasm, it's open a tad in the middle (I managed one spike) and it's definately very open near the end of the attack.

In general, Ivysaur's Bair seemed pretty effective to keep Falco off, and Falco can get gimped by tether-hogging if you do it right.

I'd play Squirtle and Charizard center stage for this fight to avoid chain to spike.

 

[Enochuout]

Just be aware that although Ivy's bair is indeed a good spacer, it won't normally help you much if Falco can back off and laser. You want Falco up close if you can, so I wouldn't say it's a viable tool.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Right. You either keep the pressure up with Bair and Nair or Falco gets away and he'll shoot you.

What I mean to say is: Bair is good for the approach as is SH Razor Leaf (But watch Reflector) and then you should focus on grabs, Ftilt, and Nair to keep him near you. But Bair needs to be thrown in occasionally to make sure you keep him checked.

 

[Steeler]

i just played a decent falco in an aib tourney.

charizard seriously dislikes those **** reflectors :\

squirtle was my main bet really, i could go even in the air, hydrograbbing near falco is nice, and jab combo saved my *** a few times.

i think squirtle is neutral here. if it's true that ivysaur can't bullet seed a chaingrab offline, then i think ivysaur is x2 or x4 weak...and charizard is probably x4 weak.

ie squirtle is 50-50, maybe 45-55

ivy 35-65?

zard 30-70 or something

just my view, feel free to comment and change.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

i just played a decent falco in an aib tourney.

charizard seriously dislikes those **** reflectors :\

squirtle was my main bet really, i could go even in the air, hydrograbbing near falco is nice, and jab combo saved my *** a few times.

i think squirtle is neutral here. if it's true that ivysaur can't bullet seed a chaingrab offline, then i think ivysaur is x2 or x4 weak...and charizard is probably x4 weak.

ie squirtle is 50-50, maybe 45-55

ivy 35-65?

zard 30-70 or something

just my view, feel free to comment and change.

How fast does bullet seed come out? A few characters can interrupt the CG at middle percentages with a well timed jab, and Snake can interrupt it by pulling out a grenade. So if bullet seed is as quick as taking out a grenade, then it's quite possible to do so offline.

I think Falco still has a bit of an advantage over Squirtle. Lasers are good at spacing and even though shell shifting gets around this and the reflector, it wouldn't work the entire match as Falco would soon start doing SH Dair and Bair.

Wasn't Charizard supposed to be the best bet?

Really, I think it's all about using all three of the Pokemon during each stock. Charizard survives at low percentages since the knock back from the Dair is survivable at around 50%and Charizard has multiple jumps and Up-B. But because he's relatively slow and a big target, multiple jumps won't matter at higher percentages where Falco's spike is an instant kill, so Squirtle would be a more viable option since he's more maneuverable and harder to hit.

Ivysaur . . . I don't know where Ivysaur fits in. He's inbetween Squirtle and Zard so I guess using him to rack up damage wouldn't be too bad. Plus, he seems to kill better than squirtle, but that would make him better when Falco's at higher percents.

I think ideally Charizard > Squirtle > Ivysaur would be the best option against Falco if you didn't have to change Pokemon twice inbetween each.

 

[Elliot Gale]

Zard does a lot better than Ivy in this match-up. Flaco is just grab fodder.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Falco is really just a terrible matchup for Pokemon Trainer to begin with. Charizard has trouble closing the gap on Falco to get those devastating grabs in thanks to the ever popular "run with Side B" and the shine. I actually prefer Ivysaur in this matchup myself, though it suffers the worst from the spike, it can at least spike Falco very easily with Dair and punish Side B runs with bullet seed.

 

[Steeler]

ivysaur's spike is like the hardest to nail in the game ._.

my ivysaur really isn't that good, but i suppose if an ivy could keep falco at bay but not far enough to laser camp and such, ivy wouldn't be too bad of a bet. ivy outranges falco on everything but the fsmash i think, and that's very punishable on block.

but anyway, when i leave on vacation friday, my cousin mains falco and i'll be sure to teach him the chaingrab so we can test bullet seed. the initial pop up hit for bs really is basically instantaneous. i'm almost positive that it's as fast as or faster than snake's grenade.

also shellshifting isn't all that reliable for dodging lasers because squirtle comes out of the shell for a split second, enough to get hit by a laser if it happens to whiz by at that moment.

i think crouching with squirtle at range far enough to avoid the phantasm could be a nice way of forcing falco to approach, whether by air, dash attack, or phantasm. at an appropriate range, squirtle could, in theory, be able to adequately punish, particularly near an edge so falco has no room to phantasm...

but is phantasm canceling going to make that a non-issue?

but i'm just thinking aloud here, i don't know how effective this would be in actual combat. this would probably work best when squirtle were fatigued, since falco could just wait for you to come or waste your stamina time.

 

[Retro Gaming]

No one forget to time how easily the Pokemon can escape from the chain-grab. I don't see much hope for Squirtle, but Ivysaur seems to come out very quickly regardless, but also has Bullet Seed for a probable punish. If Ivysaur can get out of that chain-grab early, it'll be a slight disadvantage at worst. (But most probable).

I realy don't have a problem with Reflector versus Charizard, to be honest. Unless Falco's really unpredictable, then you just have to shield it and grab. Flamethrower helps at the edge versus Falco, a lot. Shame I didn't think of trying it until there were only so many matches left.

i think I approached fighting with Squirtle the wrong way. I guess I didn't correctly analyze "Grab = death".

All in all, I want to play another one, to test sum' 'dis things.

 

[iDizZzY]

I'd play Squirtle and Charizard center stage for this fight to avoid chain to spike.

that is pretty much setting you up for a chain spike, because if falco gets the chain grab center stage and chains you, chances aree the chain will end at the end of the level, with a good amount of damage on you

 

[Hawks go Caw]

that is pretty much setting you up for a chain spike, because if falco gets the chain grab center stage and chains you, chances aree the chain will end at the end of the level, with a good amount of damage on you

Word. If you play by the edge in he beginning, Falco's forced to do damage to you first and has the possibility of going over the Chain Grab limit or has to do a Pivot Grab/Reverse Boost Grab in order to deal enough damage and turn around towards the ledge. It's not incredibly difficult to perform the two, but it's more difficult than just regular chain grabbing.

 

[Rayo1]

i would say squirtle has a slight disadvantage. I'm saying this because if you try to chain spike squirtle and if the PT is smart enough to up-B after the spike then he will make it bake to the stage and squirtle wont be hit by lasers all the time but thats the only thing squirtle has against falco from my experience of fighting my friends PT everyday.

 

[Retro Gaming]

i would say squirtle has a slight disadvantage. I'm saying this because if you try to chain spike squirtle and if the PT is smart enough to up-B after the spike then he will make it bake to the stage and squirtle wont be hit by lasers all the time but thats the only thing squirtle has against falco from my experience of fighting my friends PT everyday.

No, Waterfall definately won't make it back if he grabs you soon enough.

Well, I guess the edge is a tad safer, then. Obvious plan is obvious.

 

[Rayo1]

No, Waterfall definately won't make it back if he grabs you soon enough.

Well, I guess the edge is a tad safer, then. Obvious plan is obvious.

thats what i meant but it only seems to work on smashville sommetimes.