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Pokedex Entry 10: King Dedede

JST

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 11, 2008
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Just something that caught my eye.

Firstly, this isn't a "tearing apart."

Secondly, Dedede is infamous for having trouble with match-ups. I mean, IC's were good on Sheik in Melee, but that didn't change how they fared versus the rest of Top Tier.
However, the nice thing about DDD is that he fares better in his disadvantaged match-ups better than some other characters do with theirs. This is ESPECIALLY true with experienced DDD players (I'm talking like REALLY good here) - a very good, clever DDD is a rather scary match-up no matter who you are (Except Falco). One could assume that this is why he's so ridiculously high up on the tier list aside from tourney results.
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
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Just something that caught my eye.



However, the nice thing about DDD is that he fares better in his disadvantaged match-ups better than some other characters do with theirs. This is ESPECIALLY true with experienced DDD players (I'm talking like REALLY good here) - a very good, clever DDD is a rather scary match-up no matter who you are (Except Falco). One could assume that this is why he's so ridiculously high up on the tier list aside from tourney results.
But... A disadvantage is still a disadvantage - I don't get it.
 

Charizard92

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Me neither. Oh, and by the way, if Dedede's main strategy is just the chain grab, then Charizard should have little problem (Dodge), but if it something else, I can give an accurate match up.
 

Bomber7

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LOL. From what I have experienced, PT doesnt stand much of a chance against DDD. Squirtle overall has the most chance of living because he's small fast and well you know his abilities. Ivy and Charz will just get chaingrabbed to fdeath, the wadledee spammed(well that was optional in my case) then malleted up in the air, and we know DDD has awsome stregnth. Squirtle could just about avoid all that though even still, he can die at a low % so ya.
 

Toby.

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Me neither. Oh, and by the way, if Dedede's main strategy is just the chain grab, then Charizard should have little problem (Dodge), but if it something else, I can give an accurate match up.
If you could disable Dedede simply by dodging alot he wouldn't be top tier. Plus, looking at ANY character matchup as simple due to the fact that the game includes dodging mechanics is very limited. The things that charizard has to deal with include: waddle dees, swallowcides killing his off stage game, ftilt, bair/fair walls off stage, heavy weight, 5 jumps, a SA recovery and the chain grab. Waddles force you to react in specific ways. He can use those reactions to get in a grab, or some other attack.

LOL. From what I have experienced, PT doesnt stand much of a chance against DDD. Squirtle overall has the most chance of living because he's small fast and well you know his abilities. Ivy and Charz will just get chaingrabbed to fdeath, the wadledee spammed(well that was optional in my case) then malleted up in the air, and we know DDD has awsome stregnth. Squirtle could just about avoid all that though even still, he can die at a low % so ya.
I'm not sure about squirtle. There are a few problems with using the turtle here.

1) You need to get Dedede to high percents in order to kill. The time it takes squirtle to do so runs the risk of putting you into fatigue, which makes things very, very hard.

2) It's squirtles short range against dededes long ranged disjointed hitboxes.

3) Squirtle is super light.

There are probably more. It's tricky, to say the least.
 

JST

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Me neither. Oh, and by the way, if Dedede's main strategy is just the chain grab, then Charizard should have little problem (Dodge), but if it something else, I can give an accurate match up.
IMO CG doesn't make DDD. It's just the icing on the cake for him. It's true that grabs are a very big part of DDD - his shield-grab is extremely quick, has ridiculousso range and it's kinda depressing as DDD can just grab every single bad spacing move.

Anyway, I've played a PT before, and he was pretty okay for the most part. I'll just say some things about DDD that you should keep in mind because everyone seems to think that DDD is a one-dimensional character due to the entire 'omg all he can do his CG and bair' thing.



When playing against ANY DDD, WATCH YOUR SPACING. Wrong moves and whiffed attacks will earn you a GUARANTEED 16%, WITHOUT chaingrab/techchase against Squirtle. With the chaingrab/techchase, expect more. DDD's grab range is huge and fast, you have to be EXTREMELY careful. No one wants to be anywhere NEAR DDD for any longer than a second - Shield grab is extremely fast and turnaround grab out of shield/spotdodge is just as fast. IMO Charizard has to be especially careful because Charizard has some ending lag on some of his attacks.

BTW you might wanna watch out for DDD's pivot grab. It's pretty good.

DDD further augments this aspect of him with a pretty good projectiles - DDD can force an approach on you (Except for Ivysaur). Waddles are very annoying, and they attack you if you hang around them for too long (Both Dees and Doos will attack you). Oh, and watch out for Gordo.

Now, straying away from grabs for a while, DDD's moveset is surprisingly versatile, especially in the air. Bair is incredibly fast, has very high priority, long range, and a hitbox that lingers for a deceptive amount of time. Dair will shut you down if you try to purse DDD from below recklessly. Fair is a situational attack - it has a huge vertical hitbox, and seeing DDD use it repeatedly makes it very tempting to approach. Be careful. DDD's air game is very good at keeping people OUT. You won't see Uair and nair be used terribly often, as they're very situational. Uair does a LOT of damage though. Additionally, DDD's air game is further augmented by his multijumps, and he has very little lag upon landing.

BTW, watch out for the WoP out of CG.

DDD's ground game is mainly punishing with grabs, but he's not completely limited to that. Ftilt has ridiculous range, one of the longest in the game. I think he can cancel Ivy's Razor Leaf with this move. Dtilt can catch you by surprise as it has deceptive range. DDD's Fsmash and Dash attack WILL get you if you're predictable with your dodges and you aren't careful with your movement. You'll rarely see DDD use Usmash and Dsmash, but they're both good moves - they have good killing potential and Usmash is similar to Ike's Usmash as it hits all around DDD.

Utilt. This is DDD's main kill move. It'll kill Squirtle very early, it'll kill Ivysaur around 120%, and I don't know when it kills Charizard. Probably around 130%-140%. Watch out for this move. It has a deceptive, TREMENDOUS hitbox all around DDD and inside him. It's very very quick - watch your movement and spacing else you'll eat this move.

Inhale. This is personally one of my favorite moves as DDD. I'll be floating around, threatening my opponent with bairs or fairs, and when I run out of jumps and land, I'll see my opponent charge. Then I just b-reversal Inhale. Inhale is very good move. If none of DDD's disjointed attacks will get you, this probably will. This move will stop you dead in your tracks if you're predictable and/or clumsy. BTW, DDDcide. Fear it.

DDD is a heavy sonuva*****. He is the most resistant to vertical kills out of everyone else in the game - you'll want to kill him horizontally. DDD's recovery makes it so that he's pretty much guaranteed to make it back unless the DDD is stupid or you completely knock him out. The trick to edge-guarding DDD is not to outright gimp him, but force him to use his UpB. Just a few things to keep in mind:

-DDD has superarmor on the way up.
-DDD will always try to land on the ledge.
-In the case the DDD isn't landing on the ledge, he either has no other choice, or he's trying to trick you into intercepting him so he can just cancel his jump and land on the now-vacant ledge, OR you're vulnerable/being stupid in which case he's trying to land on YOU.





Now, assuming that you play smart and you manage to get a hit in on DDD, you'll probably combo his *** into oblivion (Charizard is a slight exception as his attacks are designed to keep the opponent away). DDD is so easy to combo it's ridiculous, you just have to do everything you can to not be clumsy or you'll end up eating a bair/nair/dair/grab.


If I have to summarize with a statement, it would be this: This is a match-up where there is little room for error. You MUST try your best not to make mistakes. Be extremely careful, know when DDD is vulnerable, READ the DDD's habits and punish every mistake you can with combos.


These are just characteristics of DDD. I haven't listed any edges Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard has in this match-up because I don't think I have enough experience with this match-up to really say anything against PT except for little things. The only thing I really know is that Squirtle gets outranged and outprioritized by DDD quite badly, and fatigue is a very very very bad thing.
 

Charizard92

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^ so, is Dedede primarily grab game or is his strategy something else? I have absoloutly no Idea what Dedede's main strategy is but if it is primarily grabing and throwing, Deja vu.
 

JST

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You're making it sound way too simple regarding the grab thing. :p I guess you could say one of the biggest thing going for DDD is the grab game, but the grabs are rarely used offensively. But everything about DDD is big - hard to approach, punishes extremely hard, is very hard to kill, immense priority + disjointed hitboxes on some attacks, speed and range, great recovery, a plethora of options for many situations. IMO DDD is a hard and tricky match-up because DDD's opponent has to extremely careful.

Have you ever played a good DDD that wasn't online? For me, facing a good DDD is pretty **** frustrating and scary - playing against one made me want to pick up and master DDD. It's a game of 'don't mess up or you're ****ed.'
 

Charizard92

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No, I can't even face one online, my Wi-fi connection needs repair. I just couldn't get a grasp on how exactly you are supposed to play Dedede. Oh, and he isn't fast, he is actually the second slowest (I think it's that low). We kinda suspected that any mistake will cost your life with Dedede, but I never thought we might actually get an advantage over this one. You may have a point there.
 

JST

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In case you don't know, you're supposed to play DDD as gay possible. After that, be even more gay. :p

DDD's ground and aerial MOVEMENT are slow, and his smashes, jab, and dash attack all have considerable start up lag. But the way DDD plays makes appear deceptively fast: bair, dair, nair, Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, GRABS, and even fair in some situations are all fast, especially bair. I guess you could argue that he's very slow, but decently fast at the same time. DDD's turnaround grab is also very very fast. You're initial reaction will probably be 'wtf' when you land behind a shielded DDD only to get grabbed near instantly right out of shield.
 

JST

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In case you don't know, you're supposed to play DDD as gay possible. After that, be even more gay. :p

DDD's ground and aerial MOVEMENT are slow, and his smashes, jab, and dash attack all have considerable start up lag. But the way DDD plays makes appear deceptively fast: bair, dair, nair, Ftilt, Utilt, Dtilt, GRABS, and even fair in some situations are all fast, especially bair. I guess you could argue that he's very slow, but decently fast at the same time. DDD's turnaround grab is also very very fast. You're initial reaction will probably be 'wtf' when you land behind a shielded DDD only to get grabbed near instantly right out of shield.

Edit: Double post wtf.
 

Retro Gaming

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IMO CG doesn't make DDD. It's just the icing on the cake for him. It's true that grabs are a very big part of DDD - his shield-grab is extremely quick, has ridiculousso range and it's kinda depressing as DDD can just grab every single bad spacing move.

When playing against ANY DDD, WATCH YOUR SPACING. Wrong moves and whiffed attacks will earn you a GUARANTEED 16%, WITHOUT chaingrab/techchase against Squirtle. With the chaingrab/techchase, expect more. DDD's grab range is huge and fast, you have to be EXTREMELY careful. No one wants to be anywhere NEAR DDD for any longer than a second - Shield grab is extremely fast and turnaround grab out of shield/spotdodge is just as fast. IMO Charizard has to be especially careful because Charizard has some ending lag on some of his attacks.
Ivysaur has to be the safest in this regard because of the large, disjointed hitboxes that it uses for effective spacing. Ftilt, Dtilt, Bair are too large for DDD to just stand there and grab. Squirtle is obviously hurting a little here. He has to approach basically, and it doesn't help that his range puts him right where DDD wants him. Squirtle needs to bait like crazy to succeed in this match-up, which is an annoyance.

Charizard is kind of mixed. Rock Smash has a really long lasting lingering hitbox that will cover him if he doesn't go for a sweetspot. However, if you're trying to get some good damage, Charizard is invariably opening himself up to being grabbed out of Rock Smash. Flamethrower is much safer and will force Dedede to retreat if he simply shields it. Charizard's grab range is just about the same size as Dedede's though, so anytime he messes up with Bair, Dtilt, Utilt, etc. he's in danger of being grabbed, as well.

DDD further augments this aspect of him with a pretty good projectiles - DDD can force an approach on you (Except for Ivysaur). Waddles are very annoying, and they attack you if you hang around them for too long (Both Dees and Doos will attack you). Oh, and watch out for Gordo.

Ivysaur ultimately wins here because SH Razor Leaf will go over jabs and Ftilt while also going straight through Doo/Dees. I never really have much of a problem with either of them when using Charizard; I get rid of them with Nair, Fair (If you're approaching when one is thrown) or sometimes they get in the way of Flamethrower. Squirtle will not mind them very much since he will ultimately be spending most of his time in the air, jumping straight over them. They are an annoyance for him when you need to be on the ground, though, and they detract from the space you can shellshift in.

Now, straying away from grabs for a while, DDD's moveset is surprisingly versatile, especially in the air. Bair is incredibly fast, has very high priority, long range, and a hitbox that lingers for a deceptive amount of time. Dair will shut you down if you try to purse DDD from below recklessly. Fair is a situational attack - it has a huge vertical hitbox, and seeing DDD use it repeatedly makes it very tempting to approach. Be careful. DDD's air game is very good at keeping people OUT. You won't see Uair and nair be used terribly often, as they're very situational. Uair does a LOT of damage though. Additionally, DDD's air game is further augmented by his multijumps, and he has very little lag upon landing.
Ivysaur absolutely wins at keeping people out in the air, in my opinion. Bair beats Dedede's Bair, and if you're trying to actually approach Ivysaur from above then you're doing something wrong. Ivy will not try to approach you from below except with Bair, at a diagonal angle. Charizard seems to struggle a little bit with Dedede's Dair, but overall can fend well enough with the Bair if he can use Bair. Charizard will not want to use Fair on the Bair. Bair is really scary for Squirtle, though; Dedede's foot is almost as large as Squirtle.

BTW, watch out for the WoP out of CG.
This is where Ivysaur will have the most problems. This can only happen if Ivysaur allows itself to be grabbed, though. Charizard has multiple jumps and super armour to escape with. Squirtle won't like the WoP out of Fthrow/Bthrow variants much, either.

DDD's ground game is mainly punishing with grabs, but he's not completely limited to that. Ftilt has ridiculous range, one of the longest in the game. I think he can cancel Ivy's Razor Leaf with this move. Dtilt can catch you by surprise as it has deceptive range. DDD's Fsmash and Dash attack WILL get you if you're predictable with your dodges and you aren't careful with your movement. You'll rarely see DDD use Usmash and Dsmash, but they're both good moves - they have good killing potential and Usmash is similar to Ike's Usmash as it hits all around DDD.
Razor Leaf is canceled but SH Razor Leaf will almost always (Depends on the trajectory) go over the hammer and hit Dedede, anyway. Squirtle doesn't like Ftilt at all and it can force him to have to jump. Charizard can basically "beat it" with Flamethrower.

Utilt. This is DDD's main kill move. It'll kill Squirtle very early, it'll kill Ivysaur around 120%, and I don't know when it kills Charizard. Probably around 130%-140%. Watch out for this move. It has a deceptive, TREMENDOUS hitbox all around DDD and inside him. It's very very quick - watch your movement and spacing else you'll eat this move.
You're most likely to get Squirtle with this move. I don't think the other two are going to be above you often, if ever. Any Pokemon Trainer that knows what they're doing knows that Ivysaur and Charizard don't want to be above the opponent.

Inhale. This is personally one of my favorite moves as DDD. I'll be floating around, threatening my opponent with bairs or fairs, and when I run out of jumps and land, I'll see my opponent charge. Then I just b-reversal Inhale. Inhale is very good move. If none of DDD's disjointed attacks will get you, this probably will. This move will stop you dead in your tracks if you're predictable and/or clumsy. BTW, DDDcide. Fear it.
Ivysaur's Bair will hit you before you suck it in. Again, you're most likely to catch Squirtle with this move, and you may catch Charizard based on what attack was just used.

DDD is a heavy sonuva*****. He is the most resistant to vertical kills out of everyone else in the game - you'll want to kill him horizontally. DDD's recovery makes it so that he's pretty much guaranteed to make it back unless the DDD is stupid or you completely knock him out. The trick to edge-guarding DDD is not to outright gimp him, but force him to use his UpB. Just a few things to keep in mind:

-DDD has superarmor on the way up.
-DDD will always try to land on the ledge.
-In the case the DDD isn't landing on the ledge, he either has no other choice, or he's trying to trick you into intercepting him so he can just cancel his jump and land on the now-vacant ledge, OR you're vulnerable/being stupid in which case he's trying to land on YOU.
Ivysaur excels here, in my opinion. Again, Bair is a safe option that robs Dedede of his jumps and will hit his UpB without much chance of getting hit in the process. Squirtle can probably use Water Gun in this fight, but the chances of him even being out when Dedede requires being edge guarded are slim. Charizard is cool because he can jump out and slap Dedede with Bair to just kill him (or meteor smash) but Dedede almost always has the option to suck you up. Charizard has to play pretty carefully if he's meant to be doing this, and thankfully he has multiple jumps to kind of tease out the move. If Dedede inhales and Charizard predicts it he's pretty much about to be meteor smashed or Bair'd.

Now, assuming that you play smart and you manage to get a hit in on DDD, you'll probably combo his *** into oblivion (Charizard is a slight exception as his attacks are designed to keep the opponent away). DDD is so easy to combo it's ridiculous, you just have to do everything you can to not be clumsy or you'll end up eating a bair/nair/dair/grab.
Squirtle most definitely will, but it's very difficult for Squirtle to get in if Dedede is playing smart. Ivysaur's version of a combo to oblivion is most likely going to be Bullet Seed. Dedede's afraid of this; it can deal a lot more damage to him than most other characters, even with Smash DI. Charizard's version of this will most likely be throwing Dedede off the side of the stage and attempting to edgeguard him. I think Charizard has the easiest time of doing this, actually.

If I have to summarize with a statement, it would be this: This is a match-up where there is little room for error. You MUST try your best not to make mistakes. Be extremely careful, know when DDD is vulnerable, READ the DDD's habits and punish every mistake you can with combos.
Ivysaur and Charizard do well enough at playing safe. It's much more difficult for Squirtle.

These are just characteristics of DDD. I haven't listed any edges Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard has in this match-up because I don't think I have enough experience with this match-up to really say anything against PT except for little things. The only thing I really know is that Squirtle gets outranged and outprioritized by DDD quite badly, and fatigue is a very very very bad thing.
I don't know about the priority, I think what usually ends up happening is both characters get hit. (Squirtle's Fair) Dair might be something special. Outranged most definitely, as well as fatigue making it impossible for Squirtle to possibly win.
 

PkTrainerCris

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i agree with retro's wall of text, btw, squirtle may kill DDD the way i play ( and most PTs do), which is switching to him at high percents, if the DDD is at high percents squirtle can dthrow-edgeguard to force upB-water gun; if DDD is at low percents squirte may build up damage with grab release jabs, start combos with uthrows, or both... what i mean is that squirtle is the worst on this matchup, but he is not useless
 

JST

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Squirtle is at a disadvantage - I think this part of the argument is done.

The next few points are just pure conjecture.


Chari is a bit gimped in the aspect that he HAS to approach. Chari can play very safe indeed, but all of his approaches are still shield-grabbable because he lacks the aerial DI to maneuver away from DDD like Wario or Marth would be able to. The day will come that Char will get grabbed - that's a free 27% or so depending on where Char was grabbed. I think DDD outranges Char just barely in the air.

I find a problem with Ivysaur's bair - it does like 5% at the most. While Ivy does a fantastic job at keeping DDD away, it doesn't help Ivysaur tremendously. It's like Lucas focusing on camping with PK Fire - you could do it all day, but in the end it doesn't get you very far. Ivysaur will eventually get grabbed too - not only a free 27%, but it puts Ivy in a very, very bad position.

BTW, knock any stray Waddle Dooos off-stage - I've seen DDD pull off CG strings that deal like 70% just because Waddle Doo happened to attack DDD's opponent in the middle of a CG several times.
 

Onxy

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Not really. Dedede isn't like DK, how he can Dsmash you out of everything you do. It's hard, but not useless.
 

Retro Gaming

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http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952

Charizard's aerial horizontal movement is very close to Marth's, actually. Marth, Zero Suit Samus, then Charizard. Anyway, Charizard's aerials have no lag except for Dair and Uair. Bair will most probably be the main approaching aerial, Fair and Nair are far too easy to shield grab. That's assuming those are the moves Charizard chooses to approach with. Non-sweetspot Rock Smash has quite a bit of range and lingers, Flamethrower eats shields and forces retreat. You can't really shield grab either.

Ivysaur's Bair does 4%, true. This is not Ivysaur's only spacing move, and is certainly not where the bulk of the damage comes from. Ftilt does 14%. Razor Leaf does 6-8%. Regardless, spacing is what Ivysaur does until it finds a mistake in the opponents gameplay to capitalize upon. Dedede's fat; if Ivysaur gets in it can probably use Nair -> Bullet Seed, which is basically where any sort of damage racking comes from. Bair mainly helps at interupting, Ftilt is where any sort of "spaced-damage" comes from.
 

Excellence

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I know this isn't really the place to ask, but could I have a match against a PT? Preferably someone who is on or has good connection with the east coast. I'm reading this thread and I feel as though I am completely wrong about PT and I want to get some things string.

Back to the to the thread. From what's being said, it seems like you want a heavy Ivysaur and Chariard game with very little Squirtle (correct me if I'm wrong). Look at Ivysaur's spacing options and ability to break free from chaingrabs, I think she'd be the best Pokemon to use against D3. Her razor leaf can go through Waddle Dee (I think), she can Nair > Bullet Seed, break chaingrabs with Bullet Seed (because of DDD's size, he'll have a hard time breaking free and not taking maximum damage), and her long range and spacing options can allow her to keep away from DDD. At which point I think you'll want to switch to Charizard or sacrifice him for Squirtle so that you can KO.

If what I said is correct, I'd say: IvyZARD vs King Dedede (55-45)

Hey PTs, have any of you considered grouping pokemon in pairs of two and giving match-up numbers that way? As you know, you could always sacrifice pokemon and get to the second, or you can just switch out. Knowing that, it's pretty easy to keep two pokemon in a single battle.
 

Retro Gaming

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Excellence said:
Hey PTs, have any of you considered grouping pokemon in pairs of two and giving match-up numbers that way? As you know, you could always sacrifice pokemon and get to the second, or you can just switch out. Knowing that, it's pretty easy to keep two pokemon in a single battle.
That's basically what I thought the "Pokemon Trainer" column was for. Except its automatically defaults to the "best two" combination, if necessary.

Razor Leaf goes straight through Waddle Dees/Doos. Bullet Seed will only break the chaingrab if Dedede is too slow in doing it, it can't actually disrupt a true chain grab.

Yes, heavy Ivyzard game. This is favourable for the PT overall because Ivysaur and Charizard can survive the longest, making their field time much easier to strech. Some of PT's worst match-ups would be characters where Squirtle is the one at an advantage and the other two are at significant disadvantages, since Squirtle can't stay out very long due to fatigue or its weight.
 

Onxy

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I've been wanting to test this for so long; the breaking chaingrabs. I can't find someone who wants to test it with me; cause I know it works on Falco, but still, it's Falco, and not Dedede. Since obviously they don't care about the matchup; it's going to be hard to find.
 

Excellence

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I've been wanting to test this for so long; the breaking chaingrabs. I can't find someone who wants to test it with me; cause I know it works on Falco, but still, it's Falco, and not Dedede. Since obviously they don't care about the matchup; it's going to be hard to find.
You want to play my King Dedede and see how it goes?
 

Onxy

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He's big and fat, so my lag shouldn't make the game as bad.
 

Onxy

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Wario has such good DI, that I can't hit him with my connection.

Inb4johns.
 

Onxy

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GGs. I don't know who won most, but it was too laggy to determine anything. I keep getting grabbed, because of the lag; I couldn't space myself at all.
 

Excellence

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You kept getting grabbed because I spaced correctly and have the range to do so. I was able to conclude results, but I'll be happy to play another PT to try and test them since you're, once again, unhappy. Here is my take based on our matches.

King Dedede vs Squirtle (55:45)
King Dedede's Bair does a lot to Squirtle's aerial game if you can space them well enough. Aside from the he's got Inhail which can really rip Squirtle's offensive game apart. Squirtle on the other hand has his Dair which is really hard to deal with because King Dedede is so slow. If Squirtle can ever manage to get King Dedede up into the air, he can destroy him using a combination of Up Tilt and Aerials to keep the pressure and damage to a maximum. However, once Dedede gets to a certain percentage, combos because rare and the chance of KOing him because even slimer because of fatigue (if you don't switch). An UTilt from King Dedede can kill Squirtle at 75% if it's kept 100% fresh, which mine were since I only use them when there's a one-hundred percent chance of hitting. Overall, the advantage isn't that great, but I do think Squirtle has a harder time with Dedede than I had with him. Note, it should be obvious that you can NOT chaingrab Squirtle, big hole in the Dedede gameplay.

King Dedede vs Ivysaur (50:50)
This match-up surprised the hell out of me. Ivysaur can play keep away for a LONG time and he's very hard to approach. King Dedede needs to know how to power shield and spot dodge those Razor Leafs and pressure Ivysaur using F-Tilt which outranges and outspeeds Ivysaur's grab. Aside from that, F-Tilt also cancels out Razor Leafs and forces Ivysaur to respace and recalculate. Chaingrabs are a good option if you can get in a grab and they held to keep Ivysaur at the edge and away from her camp. I used the Shield Canceled chaingrab which worked best, each time I tried the dash grab Ivysaur got away if it wasn't well timed. Bullet Seed works every now and again if you don't time your grabs well, but if you're using the Shield Cancel grab you take a lot less damage and may avoid it all together and just regrab. Well spaced Bairs are Ivysaur's friend because Dedede couldn't punish them with his ridiculous weight and slowness. If you get grabbed by Ivysaur the same she can rack up is insane, 0% -> 76% is a very scarey thought even for King Dedede.

King Dedede vs Charizard (55:45)
King Dedede can live off of his grab and jab combo, it cancels both Rock Smash and prevents charizard from approach via ground. Grabbing Charizard results in high amounts of damage because he simply cannot escape from it. Jabbing once each grab and using FTilt at the end is enough to refresh attacks as well as keep Charizard's damage up. Because Chariard is pretty big a roll or spotdodge > UTilt is an excellent kill option. I've seen it kill at 123%, but you may be able to kill earlier with it. Charizard cannot play long ranged in this match-up because of Waddle Dee/Doos which force him to play mid-range. At mid-range Charizard is superior because of his Flamethrower which spaces him out very nicely. Rock Smash works as a good approach and can be used to punish close range Waddle Dee tosses because the rocks scatter and hit Dedede. Charizard's throws are pretty decent and quick out of a jab-jab-grab. The only problem Charizard really faces is whether to use Rock Smash as a kill move or for damage. Up Smash isn't too reliable because I survived it at 155% DIing downward with both the Control Stick and C-Stick. The only reason King Dedede has the advantage here is because of his off stage Bair which can deal some damage or KO Charizard.
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
I knew what you were doing, but I couldn't do anything about it. Spamming Ftilt isn't spacing.

I was lagging, don't draw conclusions from that please. Play a few more PT mains.
 

JST

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
150
Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYlr1TmgLg4

A good DDD in action. DDD is at odds in this match-up, too - ZSS can't be chaingrabbed, she has a very good spacing game to avoid being shieldgrabbed, outranges DDD in some aspects, and she is much, much faster than DDD. It just goes to show that pure range AND speed is not enough to hamper DDD.
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
Ugh; I hate Zero Suit so much, not because of her moveset, but because of....just her!.

Don't get me wrong, I love DDD, so he gets a pass at being uber.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYlr1TmgLg4

A good DDD in action. DDD is at odds in this match-up, too - ZSS can't be chaingrabbed, she has a very good spacing game to avoid being shieldgrabbed, outranges DDD in some aspects, and she is much, much faster than DDD. It just goes to show that pure range AND speed is not enough to hamper DDD.
I have no real idea what you're saying. Those are exactly the sort of things that put Dedede at a disadvantage. Wether or not the Dedede player can beat people anyway doesn't change that he's at a disadvantage.

It's like... Squirtle has a problem with Marth. If all of a sudden I three-stock a Marth with just Squirtle, that doesn't change the fact that Squirtle is still at a disadvantage to Marth.
 

Excellence

Smash Champion
Joined
May 19, 2008
Messages
2,137
Location
The Legion of Doom Headquarters
I knew what you were doing, but I couldn't do anything about it. Spamming Ftilt isn't spacing.

I was lagging, don't draw conclusions from that please. Play a few more PT mains.
Reguardless if you know it's coming or what I'm doing doesn't exactly mean you can change the result. I'll have to play other PTs if you feel it's THAT bad.
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
It does.. I tried to grab you right inbetween Ftilts.....only to get Ftilted. I did grab you sometimes, but not always.

It wasn't like I challenged you to play me or anything, I would suggest other PT's for this reason. Try playing Retro, considering that he's good, and the only good one I know of that actually posts here.
 

Excellence

Smash Champion
Joined
May 19, 2008
Messages
2,137
Location
The Legion of Doom Headquarters
It does.. I tried to grab you right inbetween Ftilts.....only to get Ftilted. I did grab you sometimes, but not always.

It wasn't like I challenged you to play me or anything, I would suggest other PT's for this reason. Try playing Retro, considering that he's good, and the only good one I know of that actually posts here.
You got me when I expected Razor Leafs and shield into your grabs. Olimar's grab is outranged (on most occasions) by King Dedede's FTilt so I would assume Ivysaur, who has less reach, should also get FTilt to the face.

If I can play Retro then that's fine, maybe the lag is too much for you.
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
I tried to run in between Ftilt's not run right at it.

I don't know if that last comment is an insult or not, but ok.
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
It's a 50-50 all together then, considering that Squirtle doesn't have to kill, and IDK about Charizard. Charizard was the hardest for me to use in that game, and I should've been using Flamethrower where I used Rocksmash. Not to mention that it kept on making me glide when I didn't want to :(

50-50 sounds ok for me, and like I said before; I guess the DDD board doesn't care XD
 
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