PM vs Melee Fox?

[Y-L]

I haven't really played a lot of Fox or melee in general but I notice that I can't short hop consistently in melee but I can in PM but I can wavedash consistently in melee but not in PM. Is there a reason for that?

 

[foxygrandpa]

shorthopping is easier in pm, as well as dashing. Im not sure why, but it is.

 

[Asylum]

There's more jump frames. That's why it's easier to short hop and the wavedash timing is slightly different. You just have to get used to the new timing and keep your muscle memory separate for each game.

 

[Aidoony]

I DID NOT KNOW THAT I AM A SOILID FOX IN MELEE ( he is my secondary )

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Melee registers the input one frame earlier so you have a 2-frame-window in Melee, a 3-frame-window in PM.
Brawl reads less input as dashing already, that transfers to PM too so dashing is easier.

 

[kaizo13]

Melee registers the input one frame earlier so you have a 2-frame-window in Melee, a 3-frame-window in PM.

and they can make it like Melee according to Magus but sadly they chose against it....which sucks because it makes me unintentionally short hop with spacies when trying to do a FH running aerial while keeping forward momentum.

that one frame makes a bigger difference than you think, i really don't understand why they haven't opted to change it if they have the ability to.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I know what a frame is and how much it does ^^ However, for me as a player who didn't play Melee it is more of a good thing because I have tap jump off and the buttons are always a bit tougher to let go so I think it is a good way to "balance" tech skill so remove extra difficulty where too much of it is and add it when there isn't enough, a concept the PMBR is executing well imho

 

[Aidoony]

Frame difference

 

[LOGIA666]

I can't really notice much of any. I'd say about the same. Admittedly, he feels less godlike in this game than in Melee, but not because he's nerfed, but rather, the rest of the cast is alot more viable now, making his gap in superiority over the rest of the cast (assuming he retains his number one spot on the tier list) alot smaller. There or more characters who can combat Fox now.

 

[krazyzyko]

Fox can't illusion sweetspot on the edge before he moves like in melee.

I also feel that his awkward firefox angles don't extend his recovery anymore.

But in exchange, the inputs are more forgiving in PM which is awesome.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I believe there might be a change to his UpB during his falling. It feels like he can drift a lot more than he could before in melee.

 

[tauKhan]

In pm you can immediately jump from shine turnaround. Also run window of dash is smaller, which means you can foxtrot earlier. You can easily dash pivot utilt under opponents.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Strong Bad confirmed in a D1 stream twitch chat that the up-b has slightly more distance when the angle is completely vertical and slightly less the more horizontal it is. Also you can initiate the fastfall after the up-b a little bit slower.
If I remember correctly the PMBR tries to fix it though.

 

[SpiderMad]

Hey I figured out why SHDL seems easier besides the optimized/undelayed SH check Brawl has.

http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-23#post-16952109
Kadano told me Specials also induce the insta-gravity like Aerials. This causes less air time when doing the laser frame perfect in Melee like you usually would for SHDL but this doesn't exist in Brawl/PM, although it could also be PM's Physic delay as well adding another frame too or something (talked about here) http://smashboards.com/threads/top-players-by-character-redux.340128/page-69#post-16922230

and they can make it like Melee according to Magus but sadly they chose against it....which sucks because it makes me unintentionally short hop with spacies when trying to do a FH running aerial while keeping forward momentum.

that one frame makes a bigger difference than you think, i really don't understand why they haven't opted to change it if they have the ability to.

Melee due to faulty coding, lazy coding, or just the weird ambition to make the game harder with artificial difficulty checked a frame earlier than the last frame possible for button release to determine SH during jumpsquat.

Fox, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Samus, Pikachu, Pichu, and now MK and other Brawl characters would all be back to Melee's 2 frame difficulty rather than 3 like Chesstiger mentioned. That would be a dozen character's enjoyability ruined to thousands of people from the dumbest decision you could make. I think having a half dozen characters in Melee most people aren't even able to SH with was pry one of the things that off-put Sakurai along with him fixing it.

Just hold the button 1 frame longer for FH and enjoy the less strain on SH for Fox and others

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ SpiderMad
Do you know if it also applies for zairs? Also I will try to compare first airbourne frame SHFFL air times with second airbourne frame SHFFL air times.
In general it seems getting first frame is better if it is possible, but if the air time gets decreased by more than one frame with the instant aerial some autocancels/double aerials might actually only work with second frame aerials.

I'm also a bit sad Kadano doesn't care about PM after reading all his brilliant posts

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Chesstiger2612
Well the insta-gravity from Aerial/Specials seems to be only in Melee, so zairs in Melee? Only Kadano would know or someone test. Try to make .gifs/videos or frame screenshot sequences if you're able. I'm not sure of what autocancels/double aerials may not be in possible in Melee from doing it on the 1st rather than the 2nd, (besides Kadano mentioning 2nd frame Uair with Marth would reach BF's or some stage's platform for a techchase while the reduced height 1st wouldn't or something) but rather what is possible for the 1st frame ones in PM from the lack of it.

I have my guesses of why Kadano might dislike PM, but I wonder if he would make a thorough post about it if we asked. He did make kind of a delusional one in this thread, SD Remix and PM were the way to go, but I'm not sure if he gave any attention to either.
http://smashboards.com/threads/lets-pretend-for-a-minute.353804/#post-16702767
Now, SD Remix is probably last version and ADO is nearly dead (they said they're still working slowly but they're dismayed with the kickstarter, though they were asking for way too much). So PM was and is THE way to go now.

I think he also mentioned not liking things like the RAR mechanic because it was too simple of a way to reverse WD grab the ledge and made it uncreative or something. I think he's also knowledged enough to probably get upset at other's decisions about a game's design that might be taking too many liberties on improving what Kadano might see as a perfect game (what would he change if he did indeed recreate his own Melee?). Especially with each revision being almost a new game to not care to waste his time or energy for in-depth study of it. Along with that he may have a little something against some of the playerbase of PM, since it usually attracts a lot of newer players that might not be into Melee much at all along with possibly people in the BR itself.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Ah misunderstood it and thought it also was in PM. Thanks, now it is clear