PM 3.5 Recovery Nerf ZSS

[Phuriate]

How do you reckon the alteration of recoveries will effect ZSS?

Her down B is good for adding some mixup to her recovery and some might say it's possibly a bit too good considering the game is going to be slightly more like melee.

If they do decide to nerf her recovery, she'll need some sort of compensation in terms of KO power considering her virtually tether only recovery is a predictable recovery tool and can be punished severely.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Roche_CL]

I think her recovery is good but its still gimpable, i've got gimped by diddys, foxes and marios. I recently played a mario in GF and had lots of problems getting back to stage, even if i mixed downB right away or near the bottom of the stage, that character can go so low to kill you with his Bair.
Im kinda sad with her nerf, although i love her style and play her, I think ZSS is a low tier char and doesn't need any more nerfs.

 

[Giygacoal]

Im kinda sad with her nerf, although i love her style and play her, I think ZSS is a low tier char and doesn't need any more nerfs.

What you have to keep in mind is that the general recovery nerfing isn't specifically a balancing change; it's a change to the overall feel of the game. It's not like she'd be the only character to take a hit from the nerf hammer. With that said, I personally would like to have better onstage and worse offstage for her in the next release because her recovery isn't overpowered, but it might be a bit better than it needs to be, and regardless of her recovery she has many bad matchups, so offensive buffing is at least worth looking into.

How do you reckon the alteration of recoveries will effect ZSS?

Her down B is good for adding some mixup to her recovery and some might say it's possibly a bit too good considering the game is going to be slightly more like melee.

If they do decide to nerf her recovery, she'll need some sort of compensation in terms of KO power considering her virtually tether only recovery is a predictable recovery tool and can be punished severely.?

She'll have more reliable edgeguarding, not that she isn't already decent at edgeguarding.
Her own recovery can't be changed all that much as far as we are currently aware because it's primarily tether-based. It's possible the BR might put in Melee tethering and rework her system a lot; maybe tether would become zair and her aerial upB and/or sideB could be different moves... but that would be too different for her fighting style. Yeah, tricky.
Again, I agree she deserves some kind of offensive buff.

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't foresee many major changes to ZSS's recovery. Maybe less vertical range on Plasma Wire's tether detection bubble. As long as the PMBR keeps in mind that tether recoveries are pretty bad overall, and that most people just don't punish them properly.

 

[Phuriate]

I think ZSS is a low tier char and doesn't need any more nerfs.

I'd have to disagree with the low tier statement...she's basically a character who has a solid neutral game, great combo game with very average/sub par kill potential. It's a lot of work for her to get kills but if she's played safely and not mindlessly she's a very strong character, possibly top 10 in PM.

I think she may lose her ability to down B more than once off stage as this seems to be the case with many other characters (one of use down B or side B before they need to refresh it by landing).

I really like the point @ Giygacoal made is that her recovery does feel a tad unnecessary and she doesn't gimp very well either in comparison to some of the cast - Giving her a new tool to play with for unsafe off stage edge guarding would be very interesting.

On a slightly less recovery based topic I feel that her down B's start up and ending lag is a bit too long in comparison to other tethers such as Link..and considering her OOS game is pretty much abysmal they may buff it a bit to make up for a recovery nerf.

 

[Foo]

Well, zero suit has one of the best recoveries in the game in terms of getting back to the stage. Albeit, it is easy to punish. However, I do NOT think it's easy to gimp if you play it right. The only successful gimps I've seen or experienced myself are from characters that have an aerial that hangs out such as kirby or game and watch nair because you can't avoid them if you have to recover low. It's also not THAT easy to punish since you have to react to her get-up on stage, making it generally only punished by faster moves unless they get a good read.

Overall, I think the game would be better if her recovery was slightly toned down, BUT they'd have to buff her to compensate. While I love zero suit to death, I feel she is a slightly sub par character overall atm (worst grab in the game, almost no oos options, not great at combos, and very low kill power). The ideal change imo would be reducing the frankly ridiculous range on her up B, buffing her forward air's knockback to be almost on par with her back air, and buffing her grab slightly to either come out faster, or lag less (Or be like Link's, which has both.) Perhaps they could also make her standing grab as good as her running and pivot grabs.

@ Phuriate Having her down-b take so long to act out of is vital to zero suit as a character. It'd be poor design because you'd be giving a third jump that can also be used to instantly change direction at high velocity. You have to jump out of it, or dive kick to avoid the lag on it. I can barely imagine the shenanigans Oro?! would pull if you could do any action out of down-b.

 

[Phuriate]

Well, zero suit has one of the best recoveries in the game in terms of getting back to the stage. Albeit, it is easy to punish. However, I do NOT think it's easy to gimp if you play it right. The only successful gimps I've seen or experienced myself are from characters that have an aerial that hangs out such as kirby or game and watch nair because you can't avoid them if you have to recover low. It's also not THAT easy to punish since you have to react to her get-up on stage, making it generally only punished by faster moves unless they get a good read.

Overall, I think the game would be better if her recovery was slightly toned down, BUT they'd have to buff her to compensate. While I love zero suit to death, I feel she is a slightly sub par character overall atm (worst grab in the game, almost no oos options, not great at combos, and very low kill power). The ideal change imo would be reducing the frankly ridiculous range on her up B, buffing her forward air's knockback to be almost on par with her back air, and buffing her grab slightly to either come out faster, or lag less (Or be like Link's, which has both.) Perhaps they could also make her standing grab as good as her running and pivot grabs.

@ Phuriate Having her down-b take so long to act out of is vital to zero suit as a character. It'd be poor design because you'd be giving a third jump that can also be used to instantly change direction at high velocity. You have to jump out of it, or dive kick to avoid the lag on it. I can barely imagine the shenanigans Oro?! would pull if you could do any action out of down-b.

ZSS is virtually ungimpable with good DI but she can't exactly gimp them back either unless you manage to get a perfect up air....even then the majority of the cast can still make it back.

I'd say her grab is bad but I wouldn't call it useless...I find it quite a strong tool if you can pressure with projectiles and you can tech chase with it too...follow ups off down and up throw lead into combos too so it's not all bad...I agree that it could and should have less ending lag and a slightly quicker start up.

I would never buff her down B...it's useful as it is and definitely serves purpose I just hope that we keep it's current properties.

A nice little buff to think about would be a side taunt similar to Samus but instead of getting an ice beam she'll get her jet boots. These could be a set of unsafe moves with good kill potential...to be honest it would open up a new realm of possibilities!

 

[Roche_CL]

Overall, I think the game would be better if her recovery was slightly toned down, BUT they'd have to buff her to compensate. While I love zero suit to death, I feel she is a slightly sub par character overall atm (worst grab in the game, almost no oos options, not great at combos, and very low kill power). The ideal change imo would be reducing the frankly ridiculous range on her up B, buffing her forward air's knockback to be almost on par with her back air, and buffing her grab slightly to either come out faster, or lag less (Or be like Link's, which has both.) Perhaps they could also make her standing grab as good as her running and pivot grabs.

This!
She is not bad, but compared with the rest of the cast she is sub par, and getting a nerf to her recovery (being this a change in the game overall or not) will make her fall more. She just needs some better Oos option, better grab and slightly better kill potential, and would be nice if they make that happen if they nerf her recovery.

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS's recovery really isn't that great. Just take her double jump and she has nothing. But that's really true of any character.

 

[Foo]

ZSS is virtually ungimpable with good DI but she can't exactly gimp them back either unless you manage to get a perfect up air....even then the majority of the cast can still make it back.

I'd say her grab is bad but I wouldn't call it useless...I find it quite a strong tool if you can pressure with projectiles and you can tech chase with it too...follow ups off down and up throw lead into combos too so it's not all bad...I agree that it could and should have less ending lag and a slightly quicker start up.

I would never buff her down B...it's useful as it is and definitely serves purpose I just hope that we keep it's current properties.

A nice little buff to think about would be a side taunt similar to Samus but instead of getting an ice beam she'll get her jet boots. These could be a set of unsafe moves with good kill potential...to be honest it would open up a new realm of possibilities!

I wouldn't say her grab is worthless either, but I'd say it's the worst in the game. I think it's the slowest to come out, and leaves you vunerable the longest (unless you do a dash grab on lucas, instead of jump or crouch canceling them) and you have poor options out of it.

Did you mean to say up-b instead of down-b in your post? If you are talking about up-b, I still disagree. He up b comes out just as fast when you are recovering, but it is much more useful as a move than other tethers. While zair on other tethers is good for spacing, up-b on zero suit makes anywhere above her a no fly zone and chains into some sick combos.

As for the jet boots... idk. That would change her character a ton, and could easily be either pointless or make her OP. If it was balanced properly, it would be cool, but I don't think it's needed. There are bigger priorities to focus on.

I don't think jet boots would work, but it could change all her gun properties. Down smash is slower but stuns longer, side-b kills like in brawl etc.

(I'd also like to point out that when I said "she isn't great at comboing" I really meant "isn't great" not "is bad." She's really really good at comboing, but I would put her among the top comboers in PM

ZSS's recovery really isn't that great. Just take her double jump and she has nothing. But that's really true of any character.

That's one thing you really have to get used to as ZSS, though. Because her recovery is so good, I save my double jump until I absolutely have to use it. If I think I may get hit, I just wait until the danger passes. If they try to gimp me, I can just keep down-b'ing till I get back. That being said, it isn't impossible to put her into positions where she is forced to double jump, so you CAN gimp her. However, it still usually comes down to a mixup. Will I recover high? Low? Middle? ZSS has one more recovery angle than most characters. If you get knocked far away, and haven't DI'd up enough (or the hit sends down a little) then just fall down almost to the bottom of the map before double jumping into up-b. Most characters can't safely gimp anyone that low down (unless they are a floaty with moves that stay out like game and watch or kirby. Then you are boned). If you do lose your double jump, down b to stage wall then wall jump if possible.

ZSS doesn't have the best recovery, but I'd say it's top tier. Like you said, stealing the double jump of almost any character will bone them. I'd say only characters with many options and a lot of jumps like Pit and Metaknight outrank her in that regard.

 

[BleachigoZX]

I don't like what they're doing to tethers :/

especially in ZSS' case if they remove her down B coming back after she takes a hit.

 

[Shokio]

She'll be fine. They're only taking one re-grab away from her, and she'll still have her midair jump. We'll be fine.