Playstyle change

TriNewton

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
52
#1
Hey guys!

So I was playing with one of my more casual friends last night, and he was like- "dude, just stop using bombs"

And I said- "Why? They're my best tool in neutral."

"Nah man, they're just distracting you. Just stop using them for a while."

Holy ****, Young Link is a completely different character when you don't use bombs.

But it was a good experience. Over time, I have become overly reliant on using bombs to win neutral, and I saw during my play with my friend that my fundamentals (when I didn't have a bomb in my hand) were extremely weak. So I spent about an hour not using bombs and learning how to play a traditional neutral, and I highly recommend it.
 

Benny P

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 10, 2014
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Middle of Nowhere
#2
Hey guys!

So I was playing with one of my more casual friends last night, and he was like- "dude, just stop using bombs"

And I said- "Why? They're my best tool in neutral."

"Nah man, they're just distracting you. Just stop using them for a while."

Holy ****, Young Link is a completely different character when you don't use bombs.

But it was a good experience. Over time, I have become overly reliant on using bombs to win neutral, and I saw during my play with my friend that my fundamentals (when I didn't have a bomb in my hand) were extremely weak. So I spent about an hour not using bombs and learning how to play a traditional neutral, and I highly recommend it.
this is similar to a method i used for PM called "Limited Practice". I havent tried this with melee yet, i might give it a go.

A question though, When you stopped using bombs, did you just start using more Boomerangs and Fire Arrows?
 

TriNewton

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
52
#3
Actually, now that I think about it, I didn't. Used them for some tech-chasing things/edgeguarding things like I normally do, but my usage of them didn't increase dramatically.
 

TriNewton

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Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
52
#5
Like I said, this guy was kind of casual, so nothing crazy. Just spacing fairs, lots of running nairs even though I didn't get anything off of them. I was also more inclined to try triple aerials, though I still suck at them.

Tried to interrupt some of his things with jab every now and then.

One thing I did notice was that I would force him into his shield a lot more, so I would get grabs a bit more often. But like I said, he wasn't that good of a player at all.

I honestly just played Young Link like Fox, haha.
 
Joined
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#6
IMO this is sort of a waste of time for how YL should be played. I would suggest learning fundamentals on fox or falco if you want to play that style, they are built for it...

YLs bombs might be the best projectile in the game and one of the best approach/zoning tools as well.

They can consistently do 9-11 damage AND THEY DON'T STALE EVER....which is massive.

I think the true potential of YL is being able to have a constant wall of projectiles around the stage...and learning how to be mobile while maximizing active projectiles.

All his other moves should be dedicated only to confirming hits, finishing stocks, and edge guarding. Its dangerous to try and shffl, cqc, or even bair bair nair against really good top tier players. Even worse once they learn the MU. YL unfortunately lacks tools to space properly, out range, or out priotize most characters with his aerials and ground moves.
 
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Benny P

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#7
I agree mostly with Brash Candihoot Brash Candihoot

His projectile game makes him really good.

although i am curious, about this original post because whenever i think of agressive YL, I of course think of AXE. How does one fight like that? He barely camps, and is always in the face of the enemy. I do not think that one style is better than the other, but i believe switching on the fly, like a "hit and run" style would work great. usually i only get my openings out of projectiles, or a stray aerial. Camping is easier, its just a matter of refinement and reading enemy movement. So how do we play YL agressively?
 
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#8
I agree mostly with Brash Candihoot Brash Candihoot


His projectile game makes him really good.

although i am curious, about this original post because whenever i think of agressive YL, I of course think of AXE. How does one fight like that? He barely camps, and is always in the face of the enemy. I do not think that one style is better than the other, but i believe switching on the fly, like a "hit and run" style would work great. usually i only get my openings out of projectiles, or a stray aerial. Camping is easier, its just a matter of refinement and reading enemy movement. So how do we play YL agressively?
Agreed, it is good to mix up.

N0ne's YL is also a very aggro "in your face" example

The problem is that smart players sniff that out and punish that YL behavior easily. For example Tai or even the mid level falcon that beat Axe's YL, they know that YLs move set can't support that play style.

4serial actually could have beat n0ne's YL if had abused the fact that he was approaching so much and not camping and running and gunning. YL only wins the YL-Link MU when he's running circles around him and not approaching. The same applies to almost every MU, especially the floaties that would obliterate him if he didn't camp and spam constantly.
 
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TriNewton

Smash Cadet
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Jul 25, 2014
Messages
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#9
I used the playstyle shift as a way to get to know Young Link better- not an overall permanent shift in the way I played. But I agree with you for everything else.
 
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ihasabuket

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Messages
321
#10
YL unfortunately lacks tools to space properly, out range, or out priotize most characters with his aerials and ground moves.
Most of this isnt true; YL has good aerial mobility and priority isnt used unless both moves are ground moves or projectiles are involoved. Fair pretty much outranges every high tier that isnt puff or marth and his ground moves do too. Since a move has to do more than 8% than another to outprioritize it, your moves rarely ever get outprioritized.
 
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#11
Most of this isnt true; YL has good aerial mobility and priority isnt used unless both moves are ground moves or projectiles are involoved. Fair pretty much outranges every high tier that isnt puff or marth and his ground moves do too. Since a move has to do more than 8% than another to outprioritize it your moves rarely ever get outprioritized.
*facepalm*
 

TriNewton

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Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
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#13
Well, one counter argument that I can think of is that while f-tilt is quite good at out-prioritizing, it's very hard to use it to out-prioritize something just because of how slow it comes out.

Also, I played Young Link without bombs as a way to get to know Young Link better- not as a permanent playstyle shift. This entire debate is unrelated, though I'm cool with it continuing just because the theorycrafting that could come out of this would be useful.
 

Benny P

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#14
Agreed, it is good to mix up.

N0ne's YL is also a very aggro "in your face" example

The problem is that smart players sniff that out and punish that YL behavior easily. For example Tai or even the mid level falcon that beat Axe's YL, they know that YLs move set can't support that play style.

4serial actually could have beat n0ne's YL if had abused the fact that he was approaching so much and not camping and running and gunning. YL only wins the YL-Link MU when he's running circles around him and not approaching. The same applies to almost every MU, especially the floaties that would obliterate him if he didn't camp and spam constantly.
oh yeah, i love n0ne. he's SUPER good with his bomb tech.
 

Diabolical PIe

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 1, 2014
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#15
I think that relying on nothing but running away and projectile camping is a horrible way to play Young Link and a horrible way to play Melee. Yes, it can be strong. Yes, it can work up to a certain skill level. Eventually, however, it will become incredibly obvious that all this time you've been doing nothing but running away throwing bombs, while your practice partners have been LEARNING MELEE. You WILL cap off and fall behind, no matter how good you get at running away and throwing projectiles. If you want to rely of goofy character gimmicks that net you wins whenever people don't know how to deal with them, go play Project M. If you want to actually get good at this game, take OP's advice and actually focus on the fundamentals.

Once I shifted over to maining Fox, my capabilities with Young Link skyrocketed. With Fox, I no longer felt like I was fighting the limitations of my character, but instead learning how to fight the opponent next to me for the first time. I was forced to learn fundamentals I had spent almost a year unaware of as a Young Link main. Now whenever I switch back, I can do so much more. It's liberating and it feels like I can actually enjoy the game as opposed to just constantly worrying about nothing other than how I can land a bomb.

Not to mention, in the Fox and Falcon matchups which either Young Link gets punished HEAVILY any time he tries to pull a bomb in neutral or it gets neutralized by opposing camping, if all you try to do is projectile camp, you will lose. Every time.

TLDR; if you want to have Young Link as a gimmicky fun pick to troll your friends with, run away and throw bombs with no fundamentals. If you want to actually main the character to any degree of excellence or chance at winning a tournament, you're gonna need a WHOLE lot more than projectile spam.
 
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TriNewton

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Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
52
#16
Diabolical PIe Diabolical PIe

"while your practice partners have been LEARNING MELEE"

Damn, never thought of it this way.

"You WILL cap off and fall behind, no matter how good you get at running away and throwing projectiles."

And this makes sense as well.

"goofy character gimmicks that net you wins whenever people don't know how to deal with them, go play Project M."

Awww, cmon man. PM is decent for what it's trying to do (universal balance).

"Once I shifted over to maining Fox"

Wow, you traitor

"Now whenever I switch back, I can do so much more. It's liberating and it feels like I can actually enjoy the game as opposed to just constantly worrying about nothing other than how I can land a bomb."

I now remember why I suggested that people do this in the first place. Facing people head on was something I didn't know how to do, and slowly learning how to do it was a lot of fun.
 
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Brando550

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Messages
33
#17
Just running and gunning is not the most optimal way to play YL, in my opinion. You need to have knowledge of how to deal with pressure, which you can't learn if you only go for bomb throws and boomerangs. Fortunately for me, I had 3 years of playing Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 experience prior to joining the melee scene, with Captain America as the lead of my team. I would argue that both Cap A. and Young Link have a similar kit (which is one of the main reasons I chose to main Young Link in the first place).

In UMVC3, there is both neutral and combos, but it heavily relies on combos in order to win. And in order to start a combo, you have to get a hit in, first. With Captain America, I could have spammed throwing my shield (similar to how the Links boomerangs work) to do chip damage to them, but if I only did that I would eventually lose 95% of the time. You *have* to go in at some point to get a combo started.

So with Young Link, sharing a similar kit and playstyle, requires knowing when to go in and when to use your range advantageously. You will never win simply by throwing bombs and boomerangs, unless your opponent is a relative newcomer to the tournament scene. Having knowledge of optimal punishes (both in and out of shield), knowing what properties each of your moves have, what can be Crouch Cancelled by your opponent, plus so much more, will only help you to improve your effectiveness with him.

I myself am trying to discover what Young Link can truly do when someone knows all the in-and-outs of him, which I don't think anyone has fully reached that point yet. At least, not from all the videos I've watched over the last few years (which isn't much, I might add.)
 
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