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PK Thunder - Properties and General Information

Tyr_03

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PK Thunder can be one of Lucas’s most deadly moves if used correctly. While not all of this information is going to revolutionize your gameplay, some of it can be very important if you plan on controlling your PK Thunder based attacks. Also some of it is just plain entertaining.

PKT1 - 10% +

The initial hit with either the head or where the tail meets the head of PK Thunder will deal 10% damage. Each subsequent hit does an additional 1% damage. Knockback of the head is parallel with the direction of PKT1. Knockback of where the tail meets the head of PKT1 is perpendicular to the direction of PKT1. The point where the tail meets the head also has greater priority than the head itself. The tail causes no knockback but only damage and small hitstun. It actually slows down knockback from the head so while edgeguarding you do not want to hit with the tail after you've already hit with the head. Tail whipping does not seem to be exceptionally useful for gimping but can hold the opponent in place while you bring the head around.

PKT1 lasts for about 3 seconds before disappearing. If you are hit at any time during PKT1 the thunder disappears immediately.

PKT1 has the same momentum boost characteristic at edges of platforms as that of Mario’s Cape and several others. This means that when PKT1 is used on edges of platforms and stages, Lucas actually goes farther horizontally than he would by simply running off. Note that Lucas ALWAYS moves directly horizontally and does not follow the ending curvature of the last surface he was on. This is what allows the Thunderslide technique to work. Detailed description of Thunderslide technique given here. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154924

If you use PKT1 at the peak of your knockback you get a small upward boost. This seems to work similarly to Diddy’s up B recovery glitch but without the added jump. The upward boost only lasts until the PK Thunder actually comes out though so it isn’t terribly useful.

PKT2 – 10% +

PKT2 has two strong hits and multiple weak hits. The two strong hits are located at the beginning of the move when Lucas is first hit and the end when he begins to stop. The first and last strong hits do 10% damage and the weak hits do around 2-3% for each. The max damage that I’ve seen is 43%. The weak hits also have a chance of tripping.

PKT2 has two parts, each with separate priority levels. The first half of PKT2 has significantly higher priority than the second half. The two sections of it can be distinguished by viewing at ¼ speed. You will notice Lucas’s animation shows a blue barrier around his entire body which then breaks into a spiral. The breaking point is where the priority decreases. If Lucas is hit with a move with equal priority to PKT2, all movement will be canceled but Lucas takes no damage EX. Pit’s Arrows. If Lucas is hit with a move with greater priority to PKT2, he will take regular damage and knockback EX. Samus’s fully charged shot. Ness’s PKT2 has higher priority but lasts for a much shorter duration.

PKT2 cancels when Lucas is shot directly onto the very edge of a stage or platform (where Lucas would enter his "I'm falling" animation.) This also occurs if Lucas bounces after PKT2 directly to this point.

When sliding along terrain, PKT2 follows the exact curvature of the land until it ends into empty space at which point it will continue in direction of the last part of terrain he was touching.

PKT2 can be used at much faster speeds by using the Thunderslide technique. Similar fast PKT2 can be achieved by Lucas being hit by an attack that has a lower hitstun time than its knockback time. This usually occurs at higher percentages and is very hard to put to any use because of it. However, some moves allow it to be used at lower percentages sometimes. An easy example of this can be demonstrated by using PK Thunder after being hit by critters on the Mario Bros. stage at medium to high percentages.

Stage Specific

PKT1 when used in the air on moving stages automatically moves Lucas with the stage.

Destructible terrain slows down PKT2 and can be very helpful. Using destructible terrain to slow down Lucas’s PKT2 can give the first and final strong hits a longer duration making a greater likelihood to hit with these. This is possible on Green Hill Zone, Skyworld, Castle Siege, Yoshi’s Island (melee), New Pork City, Mushroomy Kingdom, Luigi’s Mansion, Rumble Falls (switches), Smashville (balloon), Shadow Moses Island and Brinstar.

Grass makes PKT2 go for a shorter distance. This is important to know for spacing and is useful because it means that final strong hit comes out sooner. This is possible on Distant Planet, Pokemon Stadium 1, Mario Circuit, Green Hill Zone and Yoshi’s Island (melee.) This is especially useful on Green Hill Zone because it combines with the destructible terrain effect.

Ice greatly increases the distance of PKT2 but often results in death. In addition, if you start sliding on ice and then use PKT1 you can immediately hit yourself straight down, putting Lucas in his fallen animation and continue sliding. If you slide off the edge you will immediately be able to use aerials which can be fun for some mindgames. Unfortunately this is only available on Summit.

On Green Greens Lucas can activate the exploding field glitch shown here with Ganondorf. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=NQG9TEiGjKo) I’m not sure exactly what triggers it but if you PKT2 into multiple bomb blocks you can sometimes create it. I’ve only been able to do it twice. I think it has something to do with the fact that Lucas takes no damage from the bombs as they explode.

The wind on Green Greens also allows for an enhanced Thunderslide.

Faster PKT2 can occur through standing and using PK Thunder in the wind from Green Greens or Pictochat. The Pirate Ship catapult also can allow faster PKT2 if you use PK Thunder immediately after being knocked back. Rainbow Cruise also creates this at the end of the cycle back to the ship. The stage forces Lucas up and into his PK Thunder. Lucas can achieve a fast PKT2 by initiating PK Thunder on the Mario Bros. stage and being hit from below to bounce him up and into his PK Thunder.

PKT1 can be used while in the water and cancels shortly after when Lucas falls back in.

PKT2 immediately cancels when Lucas is shot into a spring such as ones on Pictochat and Flatzone 2.

If Lucas is using PKT2 when terrain is reappearing where it has been removed such as on Eldin Bridge or Spear Pillar, he will be immediately shot straight down into the top of the newly appeared terrain putting him in his fallen animation. If you shoot just before it appears he will continue in the trajectory started, going through the appearing terrain.

Norfair has a false edge on the bottom platform which Lucas can shoot through the bottom of with PKT2. It works about the same way as the left edge of the Pirate Ship stage.

The destructible terrain at the bottom of Brinstar is extremely glitchy when PKT2 is used straight down on it resulting in immediate PKT2s and moving through solid terrain.

Destructible platforms such as the ones on Yoshi’s Island (melee) and Mushroomy Kingdom can be hit with PKT1 and have it go through but will only allow one to continue through per platform. This means you can hit a yellow block on the left platform of Yoshi’s Island and continue your PKT but if you hit another yellow block on that platform the PKT will disappear and not damage the second block. If you instead hit a yellow block on the left platform and then continue it to hit one on the right, you can continue PKT. This principle applies in the same way for Mushroomy Kingdom blocks.

PKT2's ability to follow the exact shape of the land can lead to some interesting trajectories in certain places that can surprise your opponents. PKT2 on the Hanenbow stage constantly changes the direction of your PKT2 because the little hits change the angle of the leaves. Many other stages can produce strange trajectories as well such as The King of Red Lions on Pirate Ship and the various shapes on Pictochat. Use these to your advantage.

Character Specific

Squirtle’s watergun, Mario’s FLUDD, and Link’s Gale boomerang all allow for fast PK Thunders similar to those used with the Thunderslide but with different directional options. These characters can also use this to ruin your recovery if you’re not careful.

If Lucas picks up one of Toon Link’s or Link’s bombs or one of Snake’s grenades and then uses PKT2 the item can explode in his hands during the first high priority part of PKT2 which results in no damage or knockback to Lucas but can hit other players.

PKT2 can be reflected by Mario’s Cape as well as Pit’s Down B.

If anything is unclear or is incorrect post questions and I'll do my best to answer them.
 

HighInDaSky

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whenever i try to edgeguard with pkt1 online, they airdodge and i get screwed >_<
any solution? lol
 

Tyr_03

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loop it around in a circle just as you're about to hit with it. If they airdodge you will almost always be able to hit them when it ends.
 

supercake

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props on the research but how is any of this actually going to be useful? hitting lucas with pkthunder isnt a good offensive move unless im missing something. also how does all of this combine with bsticking?
 

Tyr_03

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If you know how to use it it can be a good offensive move. Watch some of Simna's Ness vids from Melee. PK Thunder got about a thousand times better between melee and brawl too. B sticking has no effect on PK Thunder whatsoever.
 

GofG

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Tyr, massive props. If you organize this into sections, I'm sure any of the stickied guides would love to include it.
 

slacker!

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When you're recovering in FD, you can PKT2 into the "dead zone" (the area under the ledge of FD that pretty much gimps your recovery) from an angle and you'll bounce up and grab the ledge immediatly. GREAT mindgame. Sorry if this was known.

P.S. This works best when you PKT2 into the "dead zone" from above the ledge, as you'll still bounce up and grab the edge.
 

GofG

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Slacker!, I haven't found that to be true. In fact, I've gotten gimped many times. I know it's possible to make the slope, where you kind of slow down and just push your way up to the ledge, but when you "bounce" i've found that you die.
 

Levitas

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Have you determined exactly what causes certain trajectories when you hit opponents w/ PKT bolts? I'm thinking it's the direction that they would go in if it were to hypothetically cause the opponent to launch in a PKT2, except that any downward angle would be reflected horizontally to go upwards instead. Also, DI would obviously affect this.

This was really good info, and well thought out. Thanks, tyr.

Edited for clarity.
 

Tyr_03

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Okay first of all no PKT1 does not cancel when it hits someone with invinsibility frames. I just did some testing with PKT1 knockback and here's what I've figured out. If you hit them with the head of PKT1, it hits the opponent parallel with the direction of your PKT1. However, if you hit them with the top of the tail at the point where the tail meets the head, knockback sends them approximately perpindicular to the direction of the PKT1. In addition, the point where the tail meets the head has greater priority than the head itself does, as can be seen if you try to edgeguard Fox's up B. Your PKT1 cancels if you send it head first but hits him with knockback if you hit him with the meeting point of the tail and head. What all of this means is that it is 100% better to use loops while edgeguarding rather than sending PKT1 head on. Greater Priority and more advantageous knockback. I've noticed some people confused as to why their PKT1 might actually be helping the opponent when the edgeguard. The reason is because when sending PKT1 straight through an opponent, they can be hit by the meeting point of the tail and head after being hit by the head which causes them to move perpindicular to the thunder, often making them go upward. I've done some testing with tail whipping but not a lot. It doesn't seem to be near as useful in Brawl as it was in Melee but can be used to your advantage. The tail doesn't have enough hitstun to really drop the opponent very far, however if they aren't paying attention you can catch them by surprise and lower them some, leading to an additional hit with the head afterward. Especially good for stagespiking. I usually do this by looping underneath them, then back around for the head hit. I'll add some of this to the thread. Oh and as far as organizing this stuff I really don't know what to do. A lot of the stuff in here isn't necesarily really important to know for your game but instead may explain some of the stuff that's going on. And some of the stage specific stuff I don't even understand what's really going on like the exploding field glitch so I'm not sure what to do about that. If anyone has any ideas on how I can cut this back into a more managable thread it'd be great.
 

Tyr_03

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Slacker! I'm not really sure what you mean either. If you watch Lucas carefully on his recovery shooting against stages he almost always is bouncing rather than sliding, but the magnetic ledges make him grab the edge rather than bouncing away. I've only been able to do this as far down as the middle of the second slope on FD without sliding though so I'm not really sure what you mean. Either way, low recovering doesn't occur very often and when it does you're pretty much always better off using the snake.
 

Jihnsius

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While edgeguarding a character with less than great recovery, you can edgestall with PK Thunder. Grab the edge and wait for them to come close, release, PK Thunder in a tight circle around and back into yourself to regrab the edge. There's no chance of being gimped as if PK Thunder is hit you'll just regrab the edge anyway. There's also a weird a property of a few stages being able to launch you straight up instead of down if you bounce off the wall while holding down and away.
 

Tyr_03

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The edgestalling does work but I find it's not the most effective way to edgeguard since so few characters really need to get to the ledge and the ones that do you can edgeguard more effectively. I'll have to test the second thing you're talking about but if I'm thinking of the same thing it's actually a property of the right side ledge of some stages and it's about where on the ledge you hit rather than what direction you're holding.
 

Jihnsius

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The edgestalling does work but I find it's not the most effective way to edgeguard since so few characters really need to get to the ledge and the ones that do you can edgeguard more effectively. I'll have to test the second thing you're talking about but if I'm thinking of the same thing it's actually a property of the right side ledge of some stages and it's about where on the ledge you hit rather than what direction you're holding.
Not the most effective, sure, but there's a few characters that can do nothing about it, like Fox, Falco, Wolf, etc.

As for the odd bouncing trajectory, it happens to me on both sides of FD and Battlefield if I aim at almost a horizontal angle and hold down and back as I hit.
 

TechnoMonster

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Video of the bounce grab? Could be a pretty neat recovery tool if someone is trying to swat you away or Pit is trying to mirror you.
 

Tyr_03

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Hmm I'm confused then Jihsius. I must be thinking of another thing. When you say "bounce" do you mean the crash animation afterwhich Lucas can't do any moves? Or does PKT2 just change direction but keep the regular animation? And when you say the wall of FD or Battlefield, do you mean at the ledge or below it?
 

Fredd

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Just ask!
Thank you so much for this information!

I`m definetly going to analyze these even further.
 

Jihnsius

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The ledge where you grab. It's the bouncing that occurs when you hit a wall. If you hold down so Lucas doesn't grab the edge, he'll just bounce off. If you hold down and away when hitting where he would normally grab, instead of bouncing straight back/down, he'll go straight up.
 

Tyr_03

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ah so he's basically following his normal bounce pattern but since you're holding down he doesn't grab the ledge. I'll have to try it out more to see what you mean. Hard for me to understand exactly what you mean since I know you can't DI the initial bounce in normal cases.
 

Jihnsius

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It might be the stage itself, it might be the fact that you're holding diagonally, I have no clue. The point is he doesn't bounce out the opposite angle or ride the wall like he normally would when you hit a wall, he flies straight up above the stage.

EDIT: It doesn't seem easily controllable enough to be of any real use, moreover just interesting.
 

Tyr_03

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Hmm I need to spend some more time on it. I have a hard time believing that it it's really contollable by the holding away part because no other aspect of PKT2 is affected by anything except holding down to avoid grabbing the ledge. I've gotten him to go straight up by just holding down and the reason that works is because right where the ledge is for every stage is technically a vertical flat surface although it's hard to tell, upon which you can slide pretty easily. What's odd though is that it allows you to slide at angles that regular surfaces wouldn't let you. This is always coming from below the stage upward or horizontally at the ledge correct?
 

Jihnsius

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What's going on? It's putting you into a slide going the opposite direction of that which you're coming and then just continuing that momentum up above the stage?
 

Tyr_03

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Okay I'm not as sure as I thought I was earlier after rereading stuff. There's something that I call ledge bending where if you hit a certain part of the ledge you can reflect PKT2 in the opposite direction from your original trajectory. But from my experience this has only happened on the right side of stages and I haven't been able to do it on FD. What MAY be happening is that by holding down you're avoiding the sweetspot and hitting this part of the ledge causing you to go upward when you were going downward. It may even be possible that by doing this you're hitting a smaller portion of it that exists on both sides that I didn't know about because I wasn't holding down. However, I haven't been able to replicate what you're talking about on FD or on the left sides of stages so I'm thinking I could very well have it entirely wrong. I'm completely perplexed by the idea that holding down AND away would have any effect on it since holding directions during PKT2 normally has absolutely no effect on it no matter what you're hitting. Is there any possibility you could get a replay of it and send it to my Wii so I can get a better look at it?
 

Tyr_03

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Regular Brawl, has to be under 3 minutes and then press Z after the match ends to save the replay.
 
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