PK Thunder gimping?

[smbmaster99MFGG]

Hey Ness players/mains, I have a question for y'all. I main Lucario and Ness is probably my worst MU at the moment. Matches for me against Ness are typically super heart-attack inducingly close or I get rekt, and I like to consider myself a good Lucario player with almost 2.5k victories under my belt, almost every single one of those being with Aura Dog and less than 350 losses. Lately I've been doing better because there's been a sudden random influx of Ness players on 1v1, but this still perplexes me. Any time I try to gimp PK thunder while they're off-stage, it goes right through me and I barely cheat death when PK thunder hits Ness back to the stage. I'm absolutely certain I hit the core of PK thunder and not the tail, so why does it not disappear? Does PK Thunder have some sort of "protection" time when it's first used to prevent this?

 

[XCounter]

IIRC the head won't disappear if the tail is still connected to Ness's body (or in other words not until the entire projectile is out) so you're going for the gimp too early.

 

[smbmaster99MFGG]

I didn't know about that, I'll definitely bear this in mind next time. Thanks for the tip c:

 

[PKBeam]

be really careful when trying to cancel PKT, dying at 20% from a misplaced aerial is not really ideal.
if they're far enough away you want to make PKT2 clash with an aerial or AS.

also in future, please use the Q&A thread for such a simple question so our board doesn't get cluttered.

 

[smbmaster99MFGG]

All righty sorry about that; wasn't sure the best way to go about it, but thanks for correcting me and for the tips =P

 

[Brellow]

Puff can gimp PK Thunder just fine. I used this technique on random For Glory Ness and won every time. This might rewrite the matchup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEMjbmNPNmU

 

[Earthbound360]

Puff can gimp PK Thunder just fine. I used this technique on random For Glory Ness and won every time. This might rewrite the matchup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEMjbmNPNmU

Yes, it's incredibly easy to gimp stupid Ness players on For Glory like this.
This means nothing for the matchup.

 

[PKBeam]

whenever there's a discussion on gimping Ness, there's always one person who takes it too far.
nevermind that this time it's happening in the Ness boards.

 

[Brellow]

Yes, it's incredibly easy to gimp stupid Ness players on For Glory like this.
This means nothing for the matchup.

A Ness player isn't stupid just because they fall for it. Its a flaw in his recovery that's easily exploitable. So far I got this to work on every Ness I encountered on FG only failing once (RIP Puff).

 

[PKBeam]

someone please lock this.

1. the question has been answered thoroughly
   1. a. This thread shouldn't even exist in the first place
2. ignorance is leaking into the thread
3. if this doesn't get locked something nasty is probably going to happen

 

[Earthbound360]

A Ness player isn't stupid just because they fall for it. Its a flaw in his recovery that's easily exploitable. So far I got this to work on every Ness I encountered on FG only failing once (RIP Puff).

*suggesting that For Glory is an accurate depiction of top level character play*

 

[Lochy]

*suggesting that For Glory is an accurate depiction of top level character play*

True. I've had people that run into PKT2 or I have people that are really good at taking away my PK Thunder. For Glory is a mixed basket.

 

[Earthbound360]

I powershield Jiggypluff rests and punish with PKT2 on FG. I've done this to every Jiggs I ever played. Clearly this matchup is 8-2 Ness' favor.

 

[Brellow]

I powershield Jiggypluff rests and punish with PKT2 on FG. I've done this to every Jiggs I ever played. Clearly this matchup is 8-2 Ness' favor.

That sounds cray. Good thing that hasn't happened to me yet. 8-2 doesn't sound right at all if Puff can gimp your recovery effortlessly. You gotta change those numbers. Maybe 6-4 in Ness favor.

 

[PKBeam]

"effortlessly"

 

[Brellow]

"effortlessly"

Yeah. Its not hard at all. Ness recovery is incredibly predictable. And if Puff gets hit by the blue ball, it gets boosted into the air which can aid in recovery. It's second to the Rosaluma gimp imo. You can always run to Lucas or Custom Ness if Puff gets too powerful.

 

[PKBeam]

"incredibly predictable"
"second to the rosalina gimp"
your opinion is very, very wrong.
@ Earthbound360 are you reading this?

 

[Earthbound360]

Oh gawd, if Puff gets too powerful guys.
BRACE YOURSELVES!!

 

[Brellow]

"incredibly predictable"
"second to the rosalina gimp"
your opinion is very, very wrong.
@ Earthbound360 are you reading this?

A Ness player might know more about what gimps Ness than I would, but may you explain how my OPINION is wrong?

 

[PKBeam]

your opinion is wrong because you claimed something that isn't true. simple.

80:20 was a sarcastic joke from EB360 to highlight your terrible matchup analysis.

You had the audacity to come to the Ness Boards and introduce misinformation. Do you realise that your erroneous posts have potentially created even more crap for us to deal with? As if we didn't have enough people going around on their matchup threads spouting nonsense about us.

The worst part is you just said that you "haven't tried it on a serious Ness player". The whole point of matchups is that you evaluate how two characters, at top level play (i.e. "serious") perform against each other, for use in "serious" matches.

There is no point in me turning on my Wii U and adding you for something as trivial as this, because in my eyes and everyone else's, you voided your entire argument the moment you cited For Glory as a source, let alone claiming Rosalina and Jigglypuff to have the two best gimps on Ness and the aforementioned "haven't tried it on a serious Ness player" part.

What would it prove? Certainly not the matchup. You're trying to use a match to replace an actual argument, either that or you're doing it out of spite.

You're free to ask the others for a match, but no guarantees they'll agree.

If you happen to be trolling, then go away.

I'm out of here. Don't even bother replying because I'm done.

 

[Brellow]

your opinion is wrong because you claimed something that isn't true. simple.

80:20 was a sarcastic joke from EB360 to highlight your terrible matchup analysis.

You had the audacity to come to the Ness Boards and introduce misinformation. Do you realise that your erroneous posts have potentially created even more crap for us to deal with? As if we didn't have enough people going around on their matchup threads spouting nonsense about us.

The worst part is you just said that you "haven't tried it on a serious Ness player". The whole point of matchups is that you evaluate how two characters, at top level play (i.e. "serious") perform against each other, for use in "serious" matches.

There is no point in me turning on my Wii U and adding you for something as trivial as this, because in my eyes and everyone else's, you voided your entire argument the moment you cited For Glory as a source, let alone claiming Rosalina and Jigglypuff to have the two best gimps on Ness and the aforementioned "haven't tried it on a serious Ness player" part.

What would it prove? Certainly not the matchup. You're trying to use a match to replace an actual argument, either that or you're doing it out of spite.

You're free to ask the others for a match, but no guarantees they'll agree.

If you happen to be trolling, then go away.

I'm out of here. Don't even bother replying because I'm done.

1. I didn't introduce any misinformation. I provided video evidence of a Ness getting gimped!

2. An opinion is what I believe to be true. It doesn't make sense to say that i'm wrong because I believe Ness is easily gimpable by Jigglypuff. It may be easier for me and harder for others. (Google opinion)

3. No spite involved. The match would have just been a match. Not something replacing an argument. I understand if you don't want to battle with that video and all... Lol

4. "I haven't tried it on a serious Ness player" was a misunderstood reference to how people on Forums might take the game more seriously that other people. Getting it to work on random FG players in one thing but Forum Ness may or may not be on a different level.

 

[Earthbound360]

Your arguments are incredibly weak. You basically invalidated your "opinion" on this matter by saying how different it is getting it to work on FG than real Ness players.

FG Ness' are most often the kind that just picked up the character for PKF and bthrow. You have no right to use them as a unit of measurement. Real Ness players use every tool in Ness' kit to prevent themselves from getting gimped.

 

[Brellow]

Your arguments are incredibly weak. You basically invalidated your "opinion" on this matter by saying how different it is getting it to work on FG than real Ness players.

FG Ness' are most often the kind that just picked up the character for PKF and bthrow. You have no right to use them as a unit of measurement. Real Ness players use every tool in Ness' kit to prevent themselves from getting gimped.

That's fair enough. FG Ness play are often stereotyped as being predicable and spammy as seen in this parody video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VByXDYMK4VA

BUT because of Ness predictable recovery habits, there is little indication that this wouldn't work on a "Real Ness". That's why I'm here in the Ness Forum to test this out. Since the thread is over and the most that's been said is "hurr durr your opinion is wrong" (Cmon we're better than 4chan) I suggest we have a battle related to the thread topic or just both move on.

Rules
2 or 3 Stock
Best of 3 or 5
Other rules are self explanatory.
NNID: BrellowBran

 

[Luco]

Guys I get we have to deal with a lot of mis-conceptions but I implore you to keep it civil. The new guy that comes in doesn't deserve our frustration, we should be putting that to better use than scaring off the new posters (I know when I was a new poster I said stuff that makes this guy look like a relative god ). I know you guys feel the same way, it's just easy to forget.

In regards to you @ Brellow , what's been said already generally holds true - Jiggs can theoretically edge-guard Ness like she edge-guards other characters with "predictable recoveries", however in reality, past FG your average Ness player knows how to recover in such a way that Jiggs finds much harder to work with. Jiggs also has very poor vertical aerial mobility, and PKT is very fast, so you'll find Ness will be getting back to the ledge before you can even get to him in the vast majority of cases. Experience is important and I like that you're showing evidence to back yourself up (seriously I wish more people did that), it's just unfortunate because the example is against a poor Ness player (FG lines them up for you). The thing about the Match-up is that Ness beats jiggs in the part of her game she prides herself on - the air. We punish her really easily, we kill her at ludicrous percentages and I don't think she has the mobility to punish a Bair on shield (possibly even Fair lol), as good has her horizontal aerial mobility is.

I honestly think the Jiggs-Ness MU is no worse than a +2 for us at this stage.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness does not have a predictable recovery. He's got more control of his double jump than most characters in the game, and PKT2 has enough distance to be delayed for returning to the stage. In addition to that, once PKT is deployed on its own, the time at which we hit ourselves can be delayed too. Not to mention the trajectory.

But don't stop there. Most of the time we won't even have to use PKT to recover. Our DJ is huge, and our air dodge being lead into fast, high priority aerials will protect us alone a lot of the time.

I might take you up on this challenge just to show you, but I don't know when I'll even be playing again >_>

 

[Lochy]

your opinion is wrong because you claimed something that isn't true. simple.

80:20 was a sarcastic joke from EB360 to highlight your terrible matchup analysis.

You had the audacity to come to the Ness Boards and introduce misinformation. Do you realise that your erroneous posts have potentially created even more crap for us to deal with? As if we didn't have enough people going around on their matchup threads spouting nonsense about us.

The worst part is you just said that you "haven't tried it on a serious Ness player". The whole point of matchups is that you evaluate how two characters, at top level play (i.e. "serious") perform against each other, for use in "serious" matches.

There is no point in me turning on my Wii U and adding you for something as trivial as this, because in my eyes and everyone else's, you voided your entire argument the moment you cited For Glory as a source, let alone claiming Rosalina and Jigglypuff to have the two best gimps on Ness and the aforementioned "haven't tried it on a serious Ness player" part.

What would it prove? Certainly not the matchup. You're trying to use a match to replace an actual argument, either that or you're doing it out of spite.

You're free to ask the others for a match, but no guarantees they'll agree.

If you happen to be trolling, then go away.

I'm out of here. Don't even bother replying because I'm done.

This. All of this.

 

[Noa.]

It's funny cause when I used to discuss Olimar matchups in brawl, people would never say that it's easy to gimp Olimar and then put the matchup in their favor. They respected Olimar for his onstage tools and also how he had good recovery tools like whistle.

 

[Lochy]

It's funny cause when I used to discuss Olimar matchups in brawl, people would never say that it's easy to gimp Olimar and then put the matchup in their favor. They respected Olimar for his onstage tools and also how he had good recovery tools like whistle.

I can actually give some good info about the Olimar v Ness matchup. He was one of my mains a little while ago.