Pit & Dark Pit Patch Tomb

[FiXalaS]

Flaking out again...

The big changes topic got ahold of some character data and compared 1.0.4 to 1.0.8, and confirmed there's no special property/damage/KB changes, which means they haven't been (noticeably) touched since 3DS 1.0 in that reguard.

Problem is that endlag/ISAS/ACs are in different files. Yaknow, the really subjective stuff that's really stinkin' hard to accurately determine. Hoping for a breakthrough since I don't have access to an unupdated 3DS anymore.

only character to never get any changes in smash?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

only character to never get any changes in smash?

They need no changes.

 

[LancerStaff]

only character to never get any changes in smash?

Actually the Wii U version release tweaked a windbox on their Sspecial (Captain Falcon's got changed the exact same way too) but I can't for the life of me figure out what difference it makes. Dark Pit also got some junk code in the same update. So effectively no changes.

I think somebody else hasn't been adjusted yet... Mario? Robin?

 

[Jordanssb]

I feel like F Smash has sooooo much end lag, like more then a warlock punch which is ridiculous, if they reduced end lag on F Smash that'd be great, and make his orbiters come out faster they're virtually useless.

 

[LancerStaff]

I feel like F Smash has sooooo much end lag, like more then a warlock punch which is ridiculous, if they reduced end lag on F Smash that'd be great, and make his orbiters come out faster they're virtually useless.

This topic ain't for begging for buffs. It's for discussing actual changes.

The thing with Pit's Fsmash is that it's for catching opponents when not used as a straight punish. It has two distinct hits, absurd range, and great KO power. Of course it's going to have drawbacks... They have plenty of other KO moves, they're just KO later. You can't just remove a character's biggest weakness like that.

Guardian Orbitars aren't for small projectiles, it's for things like charge shots or even aerial protection. Pit has his arrows for dealing with small projectiles... Use those instead.

 

[Jordanssb]

This topic ain't for begging for buffs. It's for discussing actual changes.

The thing with Pit's Fsmash is that it's for catching opponents when not used as a straight punish. It has two distinct hits, absurd range, and great KO power. Of course it's going to have drawbacks... They have plenty of other KO moves, they're just KO later. You can't just remove a character's biggest weakness like that.

Guardian Orbitars aren't for small projectiles, it's for things like charge shots or even aerial protection. Pit has his arrows for dealing with small projectiles... Use those instead.

>ain't for begging for buffs

Wasn't begging anyone for anything, just threw it out there

Guardian Orbiters are entirely useless (big projectiles or small), yes I've used them on like FG to have fun, but not in any competitive situation, nobody is stupid enough to give you the sort of opportunity to use them, and pits arrows have too much ending lag to use in the neutral, I only use them if the opponent is off stage, or if they're on the opposing ledge to me of an omega stage.

>You can't just remove a character's biggest weakness like that.

Yes you can, and it's been done to plenty of the cast, big weaknesses have been removed from a lot of characters.

 

[LancerStaff]

>ain't for begging for buffs

Wasn't begging anyone for anything, just threw it out there

Guardian Orbiters are entirely useless (big projectiles or small), yes I've used them on like FG to have fun, but not in any competitive situation, nobody is stupid enough to give you the sort of opportunity to use them, and pits arrows have too much ending lag to use in the neutral, I only use them if the opponent is off stage, or if they're on the opposing ledge to me of an omega stage.

>You can't just remove a character's biggest weakness like that.

Yes you can, and it's been done to plenty of the cast, big weaknesses have been removed from a lot of characters.

They're not useless. They're situational, yes, but not useless. They can gimp recoveries, they can be used as an aerial shield, they most certainly are good at reflecting large projectiles (even Mewtwo's due to the unique break animation), and even for creating space in doubles.

Arrows have about 15 frames shaved off if the animation ends in the air, leading to fullhop arrows. More importantly, you can jump over enemy projectiles while shooting back. Most cannot, and those that can have severe limitations otherwise, usually range.

Nobody lacks a weakness, there's nothing that can't be exploited in SSB4. They're not buffing Pit like that, especially since the game is built for FFAs where it's basically perfect. Buffing his KO power any significant amount would break him. Moreover, they're not going to add to the top tiers in the future. They're going to subtract, and Pit's going to move up because of it.

 

[Fujiwara]

Nobody lacks a weakness, there's nothing that can't be exploited in SSB4. They're not buffing Pit like that, especially since the game is built for FFAs where it's basically perfect. Buffing his KO power any significant amount would break him. Moreover, they're not going to add to the top tiers in the future. They're going to subtract, and Pit's going to move up because of it.

I have a favor to ask. Could you please do a complete Priority-List Pit VS most charas so we can see which moves actually work against someone? And yes, I'm serious.

 

[LancerStaff]

I have a favor to ask. Could you please do a complete Priority-List Pit VS most charas so we can see which moves actually work against someone? And yes, I'm serious.

You asked the right person, heh. I've been considering it for a while, actually, but that's a pretty massive undertaking.

 

[Fujiwara]

You asked the right person, heh. I've been considering it for a while, actually, but that's a pretty massive undertaking.

I could help you. What do you need? We really need a list with OK and X-signs for every move from at last the S- to B-Tier. I still have a big grudge against Sakurais Team for not balancing Pit well enough. But that's a story for a another posting.

 

[Jordanssb]

I could help you. What do you need? We really need a list with OK and X-signs for every move from at last the S- to B-Tier. I still have a big grudge against Sakurais Team for not balancing Pit well enough. But that's a story for a another posting.

Exactly, IMO Pit should be better there are things I notice (mostly frame data) that is awful, for instance if you land on stage after your Up B, soooooooo much lag, its ridiculous

 

[LancerStaff]

I could help you. What do you need? We really need a list with OK and X-signs for every move from at last the S- to B-Tier. I still have a big grudge against Sakurais Team for not balancing Pit well enough. But that's a story for a another posting.

There's a lot more to priority then that...

Exactly, IMO Pit should be better there are things I notice (mostly frame data) that is awful, for instance if you land on stage after your Up B, soooooooo much lag, its ridiculous

And Pit isn't bad. His frame data is great for his range, and Uspecial works perfectly fine just grabbing the ledge.

 

[Wintropy]

Exactly, IMO Pit should be better there are things I notice (mostly frame data) that is awful, for instance if you land on stage after your Up B, soooooooo much lag, its ridiculous

You shouldn't be using side-b in the air in the first place.

 

[Fujiwara]

The problem with Pit is that his meta has been build around the arrows which is <why> we have him as a Jack of all Trades-character with a low priority. The arrows are one of the best projectiles in the game and a good Pit-player can you hinder you to come back into the game or use them as a arrow/melee combo (due the delay after the hit, works like a charm if you know how to do it). They are that good.

On first thoughts that seems to be fine but if you're playing on a very high level you'll see that this won't work anymore. And that's the main issue with him which connects with everything he has been build around. Low Priorities and auto-punishments on clashes can really be frustrating if your own moves work against you in terms of speed, frame-delay and damage. That is why we need to raise the awareness that the character needs to improved like Ike. I'm pretty sure that people will disagree with me but after playing Pit for straight six to seven years I think I have enough knowledge about the only character, his gameplay and what other good players are thinking about how I play and why I argue this way. He doesn't need to be improved by power but by frames *and* priority. If you really want to push him a bit, just reduce the delay on the orbitars and arrows and slightly increase the speed of them as well (5-10%).

We really need a Priority List. I want to see for myself how balanced the character really is.

 

[LancerStaff]

Low priority? All but one attack is disjointed, nothing is particularally slow, and he has tons of range. Priority isn't a set value, it's a combination of the moves attributes outside of attacks with armor or transendance. Pit doesn't have some negative priority or anything like that, if that's what you're thinking.

 

[Tito Maas]

Low priority? All but one attack is disjointed, nothing is particularally slow, and he has tons of range. Priority isn't a set value, it's a combination of the moves attributes outside of attacks with armor or transendance. Pit doesn't have some negative priority or anything like that, if that's what you're thinking.

Idk I always get wrecked when I challenge like, anyone's aerials

 

[Tito Maas]

The problem with Pit is that his meta has been build around the arrows which is <why> we have him as a Jack of all Trades-character with a low priority. The arrows are one of the best projectiles in the game and a good Pit-player can you hinder you to come back into the game or use them as a arrow/melee combo (due the delay after the hit, works like a charm if you know how to do it). They are that good.

Explain this a bit more?

 

[LancerStaff]

Idk I always get wrecked when I challenge like, anyone's aerials

Aerials are a different matter. They can't clash and can only win or lose depending on range.

 

[Tito Maas]

Aerials are a different matter. They can't clash and can only win or lose depending on range.

His aerials just seem to get beat out often and while effective on the outsides of the stage, vertically, I can't think of a character that I've had success in challenging when it comes to aerials. Very rarely even trade

 

[LancerStaff]

His aerials just seem to get beat out often and while effective on the outsides of the stage, vertically, I can't think of a character that I've had success in challenging when it comes to aerials. Very rarely even trade

Uair honestly doesn't have a ton of vertical range. Fair has tons of reach and beats out tons of things because of it, like Marth and Roy's aerials. Even beats Mewtwo's Bair because the base of his tail is a hitbox.

 

[Fujiwara]

Explain this a bit more?

I think it's well-known but you can hinder other characters to come back just with shooting them with arrows. It works good on characters like Link, Ness and of course on Fire Emblem characters. It is even possible to hit a character at the edge or even the space directly under the edge.. but this needs a lot of practice so it can work the most times when you're in a real match. Secondly they can really good setups for other combos if you catch someone during jumps and mid-jumps and force them to land on the ground.

Aerials are a different matter. They can't clash and can only win or lose depending on range. Fair has tons of reach and beats out tons of things because of it, like Marth and Roy's aerials. Even beats Mewtwo's Bair because the base of his tail is a hitbox.

No, I think they have priorities as well. The trade-off will almost always go in favor for the other player unless it's a well-placed bAir.

No², it does not work against Marth/Roy and has nothing to do with the range I think. I play everyday with a Fire Emblem-fan who plays all the characters very good. As Pit I have actually no chance when it comes to the ground and air-attacks with Marth, Lucina and Roy. The trade-off will always ends in favor for the FE-charas unless you're Shiek or ZSS, where both characters will suffer some damage.

uAir is fine as it is I guess. If placed almost outside of the hitbox, it can stops Shieks/Sonics/Toon Links/ZSSs dAir which is really crazy when you think about it.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think it's well-known but you can hinder other characters to come back just with shooting them with arrows. It works good on characters like Link, Ness and of course on Fire Emblem characters. It is even possible to hit a character at the edge or even the space directly under the edge.. but this needs a lot of practice so it can work the most times when you're in a real match. Secondly they can really good setups for other combos if you catch someone during jumps and mid-jumps and force them to land on the ground.



No, I think they have priorities as well. The trade-off will almost always go in favor for the other player unless it's a well-placed bAir.

No², it does not work against Marth/Roy and has nothing to do with the range I think. I play everyday with a Fire Emblem-fan who plays all the characters very good. As Pit I have actually no chance when it comes to the ground and air-attacks with Marth, Lucina and Roy. The trade-off will always ends in favor for the FE-charas unless you're Shiek or ZSS, where both characters will suffer some damage.

uAir is fine as it is I guess. If placed almost outside of the hitbox, it can stops Shieks/Sonics/Toon Links/ZSSs dAir which is really crazy when you think about it.

And I play a FE fan regularly, and usually beat out their aerials.

Just poke around the competitive subforum if you don't believe me. Aerial priority, once the hitboxes are out, comes down to range.

 

[Fujiwara]

And I play a FE fan regularly, and usually beat out their aerials.

Just poke around the competitive subforum if you don't believe me. Aerial priority, once the hitboxes are out, comes down to range.

Unfortunately I cannot believe it for now. Maybe I do something wrong but that would not make any sense. But let's get down to business: What's with the list now? Can it be done?

 

[LancerStaff]

Unfortunately I cannot believe it for now. Maybe I do something wrong but that would not make any sense. But let's get down to business: What's with the list now? Can it be done?

It can be done, but there's more important things to test at the moment. I'll get around to it when I do, alright. You should look deeper into priority stuff if you don't believe me.