Pit/Dark Pit Match-up thread (Pit's JP VA is top tier)

[Berserker.]

vs /

Discuss

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

This thread title is a big lie :^)

Quick rundown of the differences between Pit and Dark Pit:
- Dark Pit's ftilt doesn't do as much knockback (not a kill move)
- D. Pit's side b does slightly more damage and sends at a more diagonal angle so you have to worry less about dying from it
- D. Pit's arrows do slightly more damage, knockback, but can not be angled as much as Pit's and they travel less distance, so they aren't very threatening while you're recovering

(I'm gonna only say Pit in this writeup unless I need to talk about Dark Pit's differences)

Pit isn't a very hard matchup. As usual, Shulk outranges his opponent but Pit's aerials all autocancel and are rather fast so he can keep up the pressure on Shulk once he gets in. So, the goal in this matchup is to keep him out. Buster is good for this, and since Pit's combos only last a few hits, the slight damage increase doesn't matter. Imo Shulk and Pit both have a decent neutral, so getting the advantage is in the player's hands.

Pit's recovery can be edgeguarded very easily since it has no hitbox, but it's hard to gimp him since his recovery goes so far. So you usually won't gimp him from his recovery, but it is possible. You can also kill him with Smash fairs offstage at high percents.

Shulk can be gimped very easily by Pit's arrows, so I almost always use Jump in this MU while recovering and I make sure to airdodge the arrows carefully. This isn't a very big deal regarding Dark Pit since his aren't angled as easily and thus are harder to hit Shulk with. However, they both have multiple jumps and a good off stage game so it still is dangerous while you're recovering.

I'll say that this matchup is a 55:45 in Shulk's favor since Shulk is very good at keeping Pit out, but once Pit gets in he can pressure Shulk a lot due to his better frame data as well as take advantage of Shulk's disadvantaged state.

 

[Berserker.]

Going into buster is fine tbh. B-air is amazing against Pit if spaced well enough. F-air is alright but you have to use it early because it's frame ****ing 14. Shield art isn't THAT useful in the MU tbh but it's still useful at specific moments (Like getting bodied). Smash art is even better for escaping throw combos. Lol

Gonna go more in-depth with this discussion later. I have an idea of how this works now because my bro (@berserker00) uses D.Pit. Probably even. Could be in Shulk or Pit/DP's favor by 0.5, either way

When it comes to spacing I'd worry about Pit's f-air and n-air to a lesser extent. F-air has a good hitbox. I'd say that its horizontal range rivals that of Shulk's f-tilt which says a lot. Considering that it comes out MUCH earlier than Shulk's f-tilt (this is only for comparison sake), you're gonna have to use f-air really early or just bop Pit's f-air with Shulk's b-air but even then, you need to keep your distance from the characters

Pit also has them throw combos. Cool. I'd try to DI up or away from up of course. With Smash art, you can avoid getting hit by the throw follow ups (if your percentage is high enough(?)). Pit's f-tilt and d-tilt come out fast (the latter comes out faster iirc) but you can contest both tilts with d-tilt, f-tilt, n-air, or f-air but d-tilt is much more favorable in those types of situations.

For edgeguarding, always have jump ready. I make it a point to never use jump art on-stage because Pit can use his arrows to gimp Shulk while Dark Pit can side B you to send you away from the stage

Berserker00 thinks D.Pit is worse for Shulk than Pit because of his side B dealing more horizontal knockback. Pit's arrows can be dealt with using jump art. I would say the same for DP's side B and it's true to an extent. Issue is if you air dodge off-stage, that's like... a free side B opportunity

So. +0 for both Pits. Could go either way tbh

Edit: Ok. Shield art is alright. You can air slash out of the throw combos but there's a chance the second hit will miss

 

[notyourparadigm]

Strangely enough, despite maining both of these characters, I have next to no experience with the MU. Normally I just opt for the ditto for either of them, but I can still speak rather confidently about what to expect and how to win this MU.

Pit is one of those characters where you can make good use of all of your arts-- however, I think that the art that would cause the most frustration is actually Shield. While the Pits are well-balanced characters with no inherent flaws, they can have a bit of a killing problem. So long as you don't get gimped (please don't get gimped), the ways you are most likely to be KOd are Upperdash / Electroshock Arm, fsmash, usmash, and fthrow. While these can kill at decent percentages when unstaled, they all become all but useless when even slightly stale. Stockpile that rage, KO Pit before he can KO you, and you'll have a significant advantage. It's very difficult to make comebacks as Pit, IMO.

We've discussed arrow gimps, but unfortunately the Guardian Orbitars are an even cheesier method of gimping. There are two ways it can be pulled off. The first is for Pit to just sit on the ledge and throw them up at the last minute, after the first stroke of Airslash, hoping to use the windbox to push you from the ledge. If you do your second input of Airslash, you'll be falling to your death. Sweet spot the ledge and this method isn't very effective. The second method is for Pit to proactively jump off the stage, falling with his Orbitars to physically push you away from the ledge. In this situation, do not use your double jump or Airslash until he's fallen too deep or let go of the Orbitars. Unfortunately, if you don't have Jump Art activated, you might be too deep to recover all the same... but luckily, this is a far trickier variant for Pit to pull off.

When offstage, remember first and foremost that you have a much bigger disjoint. Don't be afraid to challenge your position offensively, just please don't waste your double jump.

Now for throw combos. At low percents, it'll be dthrow -> usmash, where you want to DI down and towards the stage to hopefully fall out of usmash and it's pitifully non-existant ground-level hurt box. At higher percentages, unfortunately Pit can fair if you DI away, and uair if you DI up. Once you are at high enough percentage that the follow ups aren't guaranteed, you must of course be careful about airdodging to the ground. Being baited into airdodging while still in the air isn't as lethal as when facing, say, Rosalina or ROB, but uair will KO eventually.

Pit and Dark Pit's main approach tools are SH (often retreating) fair, dtilt, and SH dair. Depending on what part of the blade hits you, dair can knock you upwards, meteor you, or even have practically no knockback, which makes it very unsafe on hit. Be ready to punish poorly spaced dairs, even when they connect.

Surprisingly, despite his multiple jumps I find both Pits actually have a hard time landing because of their rather slow air maneuverability. I could see utilt juggles being quite annoying, especially if stuck on a platform.

Some other odds and ends worth mentioning:

• Aerial Upperdash / Electroshock Arm has much less knock back, and significantly fewer frames of super armor than its grounded version.
• Both Pits have insanely good grabs, especially their pivot grabs. Expect a lot of them.
• Pivot ftilt is similarly very good, especially for catching rolls. If spaced properly on Pit, it can set up for a stylish kill too.
• Bair has a rather small reach, but comes out fast and has very good kill potential when sweet spotted. Be wary of ledge trump -> bair.
• Arrows are very laggy and punishable unless full-hopped. Take advantage of any overcomittments with arrows.
• If you miss the tech, dair meteor -> usmash is a beautiful KO setup. So.... don't miss your techs.
• Pit's multi jab is quite bad, and most people will avoid using it. If they make the mistake of multi jabbing, DI away and punish.
• Dsmash has surprisingly little end lag, and comes out incredibly fast too. Be careful of being baited by it. Luckily, it's not that great of a kill option.

So for stage choices, as mentioned before Pit can have a hard time landing when being juggled when platforms are in play. Platforms can also eat any otherwise well-aimed arrows. Upperdash and usmash can get very cheesy kills off low ceilings if you aren't careful. Personally, my favourite stages for Pit are T&C, FD, Smashville, and Delfino. I try not to go to Battlefield, Dreamland, or Duck Hunt.

EDIT: Some typos, whoopsies.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

little hint: Pit can dash attack under Shulk's first jab so stand-still jabs aren't safe

 

[kenniky]

little hint: Pit can dash attack under Shulk's first jab so stand-still jabs aren't safe

with an endlag of 20 frames I don't think stand-still jabs are ever safe

Anyway, Pit has the ability to get in which is bad. Quick frame data and decent range make this matchup more of a pain than others; coupled with the maneuverability of arrows this matchup can get kind of frustrating. Like every other one, this matchup is a lot about spacing and staying in midrange.

Mobility arts are most useful here, as Pit can run away and camp the other ones.

Don't have much else to say, I don't have a whole lot of experience with this matchup.

Arms can be easily countered because of that startup.

DO NOT TAKE DARK PIT TO CASTLE SIEGE

 

[Grexin]

I actually don't have much experience in this matchup so I'm just gonna say how I feel about it , I feel like Speed and Jump are our most important Arts for this matchup , I expect the neutral in this matchup is for both Shulk and D./Pit trying to outspace each other if they aren't going for grabs which is why I feel like F-tilts are very important in this matchup and since Shulk has the surperior range you should be able to F-tilt at a safe distance but D./Pit's F-tilt have a lot of range too so if you mispace an F-tilt too close you might end up getting punished , Pit's also like to opt for D-tilts a lot but while Shulk's beats their's in range D./Pit's D-tilt and F-tilt are quicker. About at 0% most (emphasis on most) D./Pit's I've played always opt for D-throw to U-smash or an arrow then D-throw to U-smash so when you see them approaching be ready to stuff their grab with a F-tilt or Jab (works most of the time but if a player recognizes you expecting a grab they might do something else). In this matchup I like to use Buster defensively in neutral and when spacing well with it puts a huge advantage in my favor , I've noticed that a lot of players get impatient when I go for Buster or Smash , in Buster's case they get impatient for grabs and attacking in which you can easily punish if you know what they'll go for since they're impatient which is different to each player , in Smash's case they try to get in kill moves like smash attacks every chance they get and you can easily punish however D./Pit has a kill throw , F-throw so if they notice you shielding their attacks a lot they might easily get the kill , you shouldn't shield near the ledge at high percents against D./Pit, that's all I can say about this matchup really.

 

[Red Pittoo ~ Rekt]

DO NOT TAKE DARK PIT TO CASTLE SIEGE

Don't take Dark Pit to any walk off or closed blast zones yes

 

[Berserker.]

Whelp

Lack of posts in this thread hurts. Almost as much as that Olimar discussion ;-;

Oh well

 

[notyourparadigm]

Well I can add one small addition to this thread, since it was requested we talk about customs. Here's a breakdown of Pit's customs moves (TL;DR: the MU doesn't really change).

Piercing Bow is rather bad, I don't think anyone uses it. Guiding Bow is nice in theory, but in practice is just too damn slow, and doesn't have the same versatility as default arrows as a result. If Pit fires off one he's committed to controlling it for the entire duration, leaving him a sitting duck if you dodge it.

Interception Arm is rather bad, I don't think anyone uses it. Quickdash arm is outshined by default Upperdash / Electroshock in kill power. I don't see either being used here.

Striking Flight doesn't allow for as much angular freedom in recovering, but can catch sloppy edge guard attempts with its hitbox (not a good trade imo). Breezy Flight has a significantly reduced length of recovery for a really niche (and frankly useless) windbox. Let's just say it isn't Dongnado. I don't see either being used here.

Impact Orbitars actually make sense to use here, since Shulk doesn't exactly have a projectile to reflect. They can help with edge guarding. Amplifying Orbitars are an improvement to default orbitars, but rather useless here since Shulk doesn't exactly have a projectile.

Shulk has such fun custom moves to work with; Pit's are just disappointing in comparison. Maybe I just haven't given them enough chance, but I have always opted for default Pit even when customs are legal.

 

[erico9001]

Both Pits have insanely good grabs, especially their pivot grabs. Expect a lot of them.

I find this especially annoying, personally. My recollection of facing Pits is just getting grabbed a lot. I found the MU annoying for that reason mainly. That, and he seems hard to keep out. Also, frame traps don't work thanks to his multiple jumps.

 

[Artryuu]

Whelp

Lack of posts in this thread hurts. Almost as much as that Olimar discussion ;-;

Oh well

Everytime I come to add something, most of it has already been covered LMAO.


I might agree with @ S.F.L.R_9 saying its 55:45 shulk favour. My sis mains pit and I sometimes find it difficult cause how fast pit is, I also tend to ... (umm I know there's a word for it... I have it in the tip of my tongue.... arghh hate english. )
umm well forget the range of pit's forward smash. It has a really decent range, like seriously e>e.

Shulk can easily deal with pit tho, when pit takes you off-stage, I find it better to airdodge than challenging him when he tries gimping. Jump is a really good art and buster too.

- ye pit's d-smash has incredibly not endlag as paradigm said, my sis tends to spam that and I use to fell for it xD. So learn my mistake and don't fall for it, have a safe distance and space you tilts,aerials : 3.

Oh and... pit's up b offstage, you can angle fsmash, dtilt it. It's hard for pit to sweet spot. I love taking pits to lylat, they are forced to side b to the ledge since it's very difficult for them to up b to it.
Pit's side b is like a free meteor smash. Aka: dair. Soo yeah : 3.
OH and pit has four jumps, important to know this so you can punish them accordingly xD.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

I've had difficulty trying to edgeguard Pit players who are very capable of consistently sweetspotting the ledge and who use Orbitars offstage to render my runoff aerials useless. Is there anything we can do about that? There's the off-chance that the Pit will miss a sweetspot eventually, but that could be a while depending on player and pressure. I guess we could try to hang on the edge and catch the recovering player once they upB instead of trying to smack em before.

 

[Berserker.]

You can d-air his side B. As for his up B, it's pretty much a decision between attempting to edgeguard or whack him (during his recovering animation) before he ledge snaps, or letting him grab the ledge. When the latter happens, you can set-up for a ledge trap. I do the latter more frequently tbh

Well either of those 2 options, or you can count on them not sweetspotting the ledge (so f-smash or d-tilt them, like what Artryuu said) but based on what you said, this probably isn't an option for you

 

[Wintropy]

Ohai~

Well, I can't really contribute much that hasn't already been said, so here's a quick rundown of what I think:

First and foremost, Pit is all about the fundamentals. That means he can adapt to combat your playstyle, which makes it imperative that you never get complacent or predictable. The fact that you can change your stats to a fundamental degree is both a blessing and a curse: it means Pit has to adapt hard to your change in meta momentum, but it also means it's easy to read what kind of gameplan you have opted for.

I think the best Arts in this matchup are Jump and Speed. Jump is a useful edgeguard option, as it helps you go deep to challenge us off-stage. Pit's up-b is easy to read and subject to a good ledge-fall f-air or n-air; since Pit can go right to the lower blastzone and still reliably recover, Jump can help ensure you can hit us and still make it back to the stage. Speed is excellent for pressuring Pit on-stage and can even be used to chase off-stage: go ham with the shorthop f-air and pretend you're Melee Marth! Against a fast opponent with a reliable shorthop game, we need to be more defensive and you can get a head on in advantage with consistent pressure from n-air, f-air and pivot grab. Pit's frame data on his more reliable close-range options (jab, d-tilt) are good, yet your disjoints tend to outrange ours and, with Speed activated, your frame data eats and disjoints eat ours for breakfast. Make the most of this Art while you can, though be wary of retreating f-air and pivot f-tilt / grab, which can be useful mixups if you're gonna go full-on aggro.

Shield is near-useless in this matchup. Slower movement speed makes you an easy target for Pit's grab setups and combos, while the knockback reduction makes followups from d-throw even easier. On the off-chance you get knocked off-stage with this Art active, you're easy bait for our aerials (ledge-fall f-air, b-air, even d-air with Shield's meager speed and jump). Even as a last resort, I'd be wary of using it: Pit's damage game is accumulative and obtained via setups and combos, while he needs to setup for a kill anyway. The reduction in damage and knockback is kind of mitigated by the fact that you're an easy target in this mode and are forced to play defensively against a very punishment-oriented character. Buster can be useful if you feel bold enough to try it, though again, Pit accrues damage steadily and rapidly rather than in big hits, so I dunno how useful a bit of extra damage on your end is. Smash I feel is kinda hit 'n' miss: Pit can recover from almost anywhere off-stage to begin with, so I'd do what you'd usually do and save it for a Hail Mary when Pit's about to die, or as a coup de grâce to finish Pit off when he's off-stage. Then again, we have difficult reliably killing in the first place, so it's not like you have much of a drawback here. I'd say use it sparingly yet judiciously.

Pit's punish game is, as I say, a central part of his character. I would say it's best not to throw out any smashes unless you're very confident of them connecting, especially f-smash: we just need to shield the disjoint and then run in for a grab when the endlag frames kick in; d-smash can be useful to punish a roll, though again, I'd keep it in your pocket until you really need it. The biggest advantage you have in this matchup is the size of your disjoints, which near-universally outrange ours. That means it can be difficult for us to safely approach you, especially if you've got an Art like Speed equipped and can just wall us out with n-air, f-air or b-air. Rather than just blindly rushing in to hit us with your big shiny sword, then, what you want to do is play it cleverly and stay ahead of us. If we can't read your movements and adapt to your tricks, we can't muscle our way to victory: we have to play it smart and crafty, so spacing us out with your disjointed aerials and forcing us to respect your space is a good tactic. Work to soften us up first before you commit to your kills. We will do the same.

The other distinct elements in this matchup are our arrows and Upperdash Arm. Arrows are a bit risky in neutral, since the endlag is intense and we have a plethora of more reliable spacing tools on-stage (fullhop arrows can mitigate this, of course, since we have no endlag if the animation ends before we touch down), though when you're off-stage, arrows are a useful edgeguarding tool and can interfere with your attempts to recover or force you to airdodge so we can go in for the kill. If you're edgeguarding us, we can use arrows to snipe you at the edge and then make a break for the ledge when you react. We can use arrows to space you on-stage and force you to approach, so make use of your disjoints here too and keep the heat on us! Upperdash Arm is a great punish tool if you commit to a risky move on-stage and we can crossover or pivot to get a KO if you get too antsy with your smashes. It's also a useful mixup recovery when up-b is too predictable.

I think both characters will have to play more or less the same game here: that is to say, we both need to play a clever and tactical game, going for the mixups and feints wherever possible, forcing the other to respect our space and then getting creative for the KO at the end. I'm gonna say it's about even for both of us: it really comes down to fundamentals and how we apply our respective tools in this matchup.

Summary:

- Fundamentals and applications of tools are key for both characters
- Keep us out with aerial disjoints and force us to respect your space
- Mix it up, keep it fresh and dynamic
- Beware Pit's punish and grab game
- Jump, Speed are good; Shield is bad; Buster, Smash are so-so
- We have no noteworthy strengths or weaknesses, while yours are huge with Monado Arts, so focus on your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses while you can

 

[notyourparadigm]

Shield is near-useless in this matchup. Slower movement speed makes you an easy target for Pit's grab setups and combos, while the knockback reduction makes followups from d-throw even easier. On the off-chance you get knocked off-stage with this Art active, you're easy bait for our aerials (ledge-fall f-air, b-air, even d-air with Shield's meager speed and jump). Even as a last resort, I'd be wary of using it: Pit's damage game is accumulative and obtained via setups and combos, while he needs to setup for a kill anyway. The reduction in damage and knockback is kind of mitigated by the fact that you're an easy target in this mode and are forced to play defensively against a very punishment-oriented character. Buster can be useful if you feel bold enough to try it, though again, Pit accrues damage steadily and rapidly rather than in big hits, so I dunno how useful a bit of extra damage on your end is.

While I agree with everything else you say, here I am going to have to disagree. The moments where a Shulk will opt for Shield will not be ones where having extra damage tacked on is really a concern. Usually it will be used to extend the lifetime of a stock (either to increase the percentage gap if Shulk is in the lead, or to prepare for a second-stock comeback if he is falling behind). It also can be used at near-0% to escape B&B combos due to him taking nigh on zero hitstun after an attack, essentially making everything bar throws, pummelling, and projectiles unsafe on hit. A Shulk sitting in Shield knows that Pit will be just itching to get a grab, and is aware that his movement speed is reduced. This doesn't mean he's helpless though-- just like any other slow character, his gameplay will be to play defensively and to keep Pit out with his disjoints. Just like every other art, just because it has setbacks doesn't mean it's a bad option for Shulk.

Also, don't sleep on the fact that every hit you do on Shield Shulk is only adding to his rage. Yes, when Shield runs out you'll be able to kill earlier / less dependently on location and whatnot, but if Shulk is already past kill percentage adding even more damage only bears the risk of you getting KO'd really early from rage, and sometimes even with the help of a YOLO Smash Art after Shield, which isn't that risky if you have the stock lead and have no hope of surviving an attack anyways because of your percentage. Often it's better to just camp out a Shield Shulk, and wait until the art runs out to finish the stock.

 

[Wintropy]

While I agree with everything else you say, here I am going to have to disagree. The moments where a Shulk will opt for Shield will not be ones where having extra damage tacked on is really a concern. Usually it will be used to extend the lifetime of a stock (either to increase the percentage gap if Shulk is in the lead, or to prepare for a second-stock comeback if he is falling behind). It also can be used at near-0% to escape B&B combos due to him taking nigh on zero hitstun after an attack, essentially making everything bar throws, pummelling, and projectiles unsafe on hit. A Shulk sitting in Shield knows that Pit will be just itching to get a grab, and is aware that his movement speed is reduced. This doesn't mean he's helpless though-- just like any other slow character, his gameplay will be to play defensively and to keep Pit out with his disjoints. Just like every other art, just because it has setbacks doesn't mean it's a bad option for Shulk.

Also, don't sleep on the fact that every hit you do on Shield Shulk is only adding to his rage. Yes, when Shield runs out you'll be able to kill earlier / less dependently on location and whatnot, but if Shulk is already past kill percentage adding even more damage only bears the risk of you getting KO'd really early from rage, and sometimes even with the help of a YOLO Smash Art after Shield, which isn't that risky if you have the stock lead and have no hope of surviving an attack anyways because of your percentage. Often it's better to just camp out a Shield Shulk, and wait until the art runs out to finish the stock.

Y'know, this is why I love matchup threads like this. I always learn something new~

Thanks for the info! :3