Pikmin Chain not so reliable?

[Itakio]

Recently I've been asking myself a question regarding the effectiveness of Pikmin Chain: won't you just be able to attack the Pikmin while Olimar is dangling there? I don't think the Pikmin are capable of having invincibility frames from grabbing the ledge, and I certainly don't know if the Pikmin in the chain are invincible or whatever, but that's why I came to you guys for opinions. What do you think?

 

[Phlemingo]

Good point. I really hope the Pikmen have invincibility frames, otherwise trying to avoid getting hurt and protecting your pikmen isn't going to work out so good.

 

[Qbuilderz]

he'd still be pulled back up, no matter what. unless there is a hidden facter added to teather recoveries this time around.

 

[Maraphy]

I think they'd have at least a few invincibility frames, enough time to pull Olimar up. Olimar's moveset already isn't that good (IMO) (Relies on lots of Pikmin out, B move pulls out Pikmin, BV calls them) And I'm not sure all of what he's capable of. So I'm sure they will give them at least enough frames to stand a chance against ledge-guarders.

 

[Qbuilderz]

i think that if you are hanging off of the ledge and there is a person there, the pikmin abilities shoudl everlap (excluding purple) by latching onto the OPPONENT and getting flung back onto the stage, that be hilarios to see XD

 

[neji hyuuga6]

one more reason it may not be reliable is that what if you are in a free for all and you use your pikmin on say 2 people and the other person smashes you off the stage leaving your pikmin to be destroyed. since you need them to teather back you would have no chace of survival. But you never know the pikmin could jump off with you so you can teather back with them.

 

[Itakio]

I had a tactic in mind to double jump while recovering and then immediately throw a Pikmin to get them off of the ledge, but with renewable invincibility frames I'm not sure sure it would work.

Edit - I think your Pikmin will follow you out there, otherwise how would you use the chain in the first place?

 

[Collective of Bears]

I had a tactic in mind to double jump while recovering and then immediately throw a Pikmin to get them off of the ledge, but with renewable invincibility frames I'm not sure sure it would work.

Edit - I think your Pikmin will follow you out there, otherwise how would you use the chain in the first place?

Suicidal Pikmin ftw.

 

[Qbuilderz]

the site said so, well kinda. it said something like imagine what wouls happen with one less pikmin? so i would assume you COULD leave one behind accidentally.

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

Recently I've been asking myself a question regarding the effectiveness of Pikmin Chain: won't you just be able to attack the Pikmin while Olimar is dangling there? I don't think the Pikmin are capable of having invincibility frames from grabbing the ledge, and I certainly don't know if the Pikmin in the chain are invincible or whatever, but that's why I came to you guys for opinions. What do you think?

Why on earth would you just sit there hanging long enough for anyone to attack you once you've latched on to the ledge?

 

[Itakio]

I'm pretty sure he was saying you would die, but in the form of a rhetorical question.

Darkpaladin - So the dangling part might be a bit of an exaggeration, but we pretty much know the Pikmin will be headed for the ledge, making them easy to aim an attack at. Plus, I have a hunch that the Pikmin won't get up at the same time Olimar does, it'll probably be a little delayed. If this is so, you could probably just go down and attack the Pikmin still recovering.

 

[Qbuilderz]

but we still don't know how the pikmin actually work...

they are in my easiest terms, items EXCLUSIVE to olimar and possibly kirby, no body knows how much damage they take before dieing, how easy knockback it, if the attack at will like in the games (attack if they are attacked) or if they can be physically sepearated from olimar. We will just need to wait for the explanation update or the game itself...

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

Darkpaladin - So the dangling part might be a bit of an exaggeration, but we pretty much know the Pikmin will be headed for the ledge, making them easy to aim an attack at. Plus, I have a hunch that the Pikmin won't get up at the same time Olimar does, it'll probably be a little delayed. If this is so, you could probably just go down and attack the Pikmin still recovering.

If any do die, it seems easy enough to get more to replace them (as tactless as it sounds). I think the Pikmin Pluck move is pretty fast (you can see in the screenshot that Olimar has two plucked and is working on a third before the others have even touched ground) so it should only take a second or two to get a full platoon behind you if you mash the button.

 

[leprechaunlink727]

I think as a tether recovery, it ought to work great. I just thought that Sakurai had learned his lesson about characters without a triple jump...

 

[NeoZ]

Do tether recoveries still work if your opponent edgehogs?
Because if they don't then they're pretty much useless.

 

[Itakio]

Learned his lesson? Yoshi's recovery wasn't that bad with the weight increase, plus he had the air dodge at his disposal, and if you thought Jigglypuff's recovery was bad, then you really need to do some more research. I guess Popo alone may be the weakest link here but that doesn't really count, and even so, he still had Side-B which got pretty good distance, but no sweet spot, although clever maneuvering could sometimes help.

Edit - We don't know for sure, but I can't see why they wouldn't. I'd say they won't be able to zip you up to the edge like what happened sometimes in Melee if the opponent is edgehogging, but even if your opponent is edgeguarding, I think you'll still have a chance to recover.

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

Do tether recoveries still work if your opponent edgehogs?
Because if they don't then they're pretty much useless.

That's a pretty stupid comment. That would in no way make tether recoveries useless.

 

[NeoZ]

Yes it would, tether recoveries grab the ledge in Brawl not the walls, they also pull you up right away.
And 2 characters can't be grabbing the ledge at the same time.

 

[GDhunter95]

Wow. you know, when I think about the unreliability of the Pikmin Chain it isn't so much that its a teather recovery as it is you need to keep a good number of Pikmin with you to make it worth while.

ZSS has a fairly good sized second jump and her teather recovery looks to be at least 3 Pikmin length, if not more. Obviously Olimar's chain is longer, but only when he has a lot of Pikmin, and what are the chances you'll have the Pikmin you need to recover at any given moment? If Olimar doesn't have a large second jump he'll need to keep a good number of Pikmin with him at all times to have any hope of recovering.

What's worse is that if his Pikmin are easily attackable, then they could get killed in the same attack that knocked Olimar off the stage in the first place. So even if you keep all six Pikmin with you at all times, you could still fail to recover because most of your Pikmin died before you even got a chance to recover.


@ NeoZ

No, it wouldn't. That's like saying Fox's Up B is worthless because it's easily counterable. Besides Edgehog > then most Up B recoveries anyway.

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

Yes it would, tether recoveries grab the ledge in Brawl not the walls, they also pull you up right away.
And 2 characters can't be grabbing the ledge at the same time.

No, really??

I meant it won't be a problem with 90% of players out there. Not everyone edge hogs after every attack. Furthermore, a tether recovery would be used from further away, thus sooner than a normal edge grab, and therefore the opponent would have less time to act. So are you implying the ability to grab edges is useless?

 

[J18]

i'm wondering how he actually recovers after the chain. i see how it's like a grapple, but how does he actually get up?

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

i'm wondering how he actually recovers after the chain. i see how it's like a grapple, but how does he actually get up?

He climbs or swings up (automatically of course).

 

[Itakio]

I meant it won't be a problem with 90% of players out there. Not everyone edge hogs after every attack.

If I knew for sure that Olimar couldn't recover without ledge access, you bet I'd be edgehogging every time he got knocked off!

I'll agree though that it still has uses, such as extending the reach of pursuit on recovering foes. You can go a great distance more with many Pikmin supporting you.

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

If I knew for sure that Olimar couldn't recover without ledge access, you bet I'd be edgehogging every time he got knocked off!

Right, but not every single person will know to do that.

 

[Itakio]

If it's tournament play, you can be sure that a lot of people will know about it, since they be looking for any advantage they can get. However, for casual play or "with anyone" over wifi, you're probably right.

 

[Maben]

This seems like a mediocre recovery to me. It's only really good if you have most of your Pikmin outand with you, and the likelyhood of that is probably going to be low. This is because you are almost always trying not to get knocked off, and fighting back at your opponent, so getting knocked off is somewhat of a surprise. Unless your opponent smashes you off right as you pull out your Pikmin, you will probably have thrown some of them away already.

Edit: Oh and the likelyhood is that the Pikmin will throw him some distance even if they don't grab an edge. Besides Yoshi's and Jigglypuff's ^Bs (which are not used for recovery, so they don't count), every character to date has had their ^B (or third jump) useful on the stage or in the air, as a recovery move and as an attack of some kind. I do realize Brawl has new mechanics, and that this is the first time we are seeing ^Bs as tether recoveries, but it would be extremely odd (and sucky) if the only use of an ability was as a sweetspot tether.

2nd Edit (lol): It would be interesting if when the ability is used without an edge (on the ground maybe) it acts similar to Sheik's >B whip. Whether you could keep it out or not, it would be cool if you could smack people with the chain, and perhaps even the end Pikmin's traits would be applied to the move. A smack with a chain that has a purple Pikmin on the end could really hurt .

 

[Itakio]

Knowing only what I know now, I don't think I would even consider throwing Pikmin. People are taking their value for granted, I mean, they probably don't have much health and there is for sure a LOT you can't do without them. Throwing them seems a little risky against a skilled player. Plus, I highly doubt they won't be able to be "shaken off."

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hopefully Olimar does pluck them quickly since he will require at least 3 pikmin order to make his recovery effective enough to survive getting whacked off the edge IMO.

 

[Total Simpleton]

This may or may not be irrelevant to the topic, but:

I'm thinking that the recovery has uses beyond recovering from falling to your doom. For example, throwing the Pikmin in the chain may cause them to fall on the platform you are on, doing according damage to the opponents under you. In another case, it's probably likely that Olimar will do some animation that allows him and the Pikmin to jump up and over the ledge of the platform, ultimately stopping edgehogs from doing their thing.

 

[NeoZ]

Well it would suck if it was useless on the ground, but as I see it it would be an anti-air attack with enormous range.
In the end we'll just have to wait and see...

 

[Itakio]

Edgehogging itself has never been an issue against tether recoveries. It's just that from grabbing the edge, it's very easy to just let go and then double jump, attack the incoming Pikmin Chain, and then Up-B back up.

I don't think you'll be able to do much more than climb or spring up while hanging from the chain.

 

[Xarias]

I think its safe to assume that the Pikmin Chain deals damage if you hit an opponent with it. That being said, edge hogging would only work against Olimar if they timed it just right so the invincibility frames were going as the Chain is reaching for the edge. That is usually a hard thing to time perfectly, and until we find out the speed and properties of the Chain, we won't really be able to say for sure if its a reliable recovery or not.

 

[Itakio]

But you can just let go, jump and fast fall back onto the ledge repeatedly. With fast falling factored in, the window to hit someone camping on the ledge is pretty small, and you've only got one shot.

 

[Rosadiddly]

Does anyone really know how it works? I mean, when i was reading the description, i pictured the recovery to look something like this:

When Olimar gets smashed off the stage, the pikmin stay on the ground. When the player uses the tether recovery i imagined that the pikmin would all rush to the ledge and climb down one another until they formed that ropey thing, and then grab onto olimar...

But now that I look at it, that sounds a bit farfetched. Anyways, we can't really judge tether recoveries right now. Weren't their mechanics completely enhanced this time around?

 

[Itakio]

I don't know about enhanced, but most of them were certainly changed. They go directly for the ledge now instead of straight horizontally, or at least that's my understanding.

We don't know exactly how the chain works, but we have an idea.

 

[smashbot226]

I bet Olimar climbs them like a ladder...

 

[Itakio]

I think he just pulls the bottom one to give himself a quick boost up. Climbing would take way to long and you would be vulnerable to attacks.

 

[smashbot226]

But Olimar would be a quick climber, from his exploration duties and all, and the Pikmin at the top would flip the other Pikmin onto the stage.

 

[Itakio]

I don't think he'll be quick enough to avoid attacks if he climbs them like a ladder (there isn't much more to say...).

 

[NeoZ]

It's safe to say tether recoveries have been nerfed, in Brawl if you can't reach the ledge with your up-B there's no way you're gonna reach with a tether recovery.
They should just make it like it was back in melee.