Pikachu vs. Metaknight

[Nybb]

First, let me just say straight off that I am NOT advocating for the banning of either MK or Pikachu in their respective games. Second, whenever I mention Pikachu in this, I'm specifically talking about his 64 form. Now that I've said that...

What do you guys think about 64 Pikachu compared to Brawl Metaknight? There is a lot of talk about Metaknight being broken, and there have been a lot of debates over whether he is good enough to get banned. A lot of people mock Brawl for its poor balance. On the other hand, there is this common idea that people have that Smash 64 is at least as balanced as Melee/Brawl; many people seem to think it is more balanced.

But can these ideas co-exist? Is 64 really more balanced when Pikachu is basically on the same level as MK? Or are they even on the same level at all? I would like to say that MK is more broken than Pikachu, but is he really? People in the MK banning debates frequently say how MK is the perfect Smash character, excelling at everything -- best recovery, best edgeguarding, great KO power, fast attacks, fast movement, high priority/range, no bad stages...but is Pikachu really any different? Pikachu can easily make very similar claims to those above. There is one other key thing that makes MK good though: camping. Obviously 64's mechanics don't allow for gay ledge-stalling crap, and there's not really a timer to run out. Pikachu also lacks a spammable move that single-handedly shuts down a large portion of the cast (i.e. Tornado).

Looking at the matchup thread, Pika has advantages on everyone, with a large advantage on 1/3 of the cast. Obviously that chart doesn't even claim to be finished yet, but pretty much nobody has even tried to debate any of his matchups. The only character who has even a remote chance of having an even matchup with Pikachu is Fox IMO, and even that is only on larger stages.

The 64 scene is lacking in tournament data to support/refute Pikachu's brokenness. I'm just bored and looking for some intelligent discussion about this. Any thoughts?

 

[Kefit]

As most know, I'm a Pika player, so I've got a lot of experience in matchups with the guy. I've also devoted a lot of time to several other characters lately, using them against the same characters and players I throw my Pikachu against. Thus, I've got a basis for comparison. Honestly, I think that Pikachu is a bit overrated, especially by those who aren't quite as skilled at this game.

It is true that Pika is pretty ******** on smaller stages, like Dreamland. Probably no worse than Falcon and his ******** combos though. However, Pika matchups are a lot more even on Hyrule, where he can't gimp as much and where characters like Kirby and Jiggly have more free space in which to air camp. Pika's still has the advantage in a bunch of matches here, but it's nothing too game-breaking outside of stuff like Pika v Ness.

If Hyrule is set as the default first stage for any competitive match then Pika's brokenness is largely alleviated. A lot of tournament setups I have seen have a random selection between Hyrule and Dreamland if the players can't agree on a first stage, which is a really dumb way to do things if Pika is being played.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yes pikachu is pritty much the unanimous best character in ssb64. He has the best combination of range, priority, comboing, kill moves, edguarding, aerial speed, ground speed, recovery, etc. Which is pritty similar to metaknight in brawl.

Main difference which makes pikachu much less broken than metaknight = comboing

In ssb64 if lower tier characters actually get to pikachu they can combo the hell out of him due to the physics of ssb64. In brawl if a lower tier (or hell any char that can't chaingrab him) actually gets to metaknight they can only hit him once. After they hit him once they have to repeat the whole process of outsmarting/outspacing him just to hit him 1 more time. Meanwhile metaknight can play 8000 times as reckless because all his moves are broken.

So to sum it up the combo friendly physics of ssb64 make Pikachu way less broken than Metaknight imo.

 

[Kefit]

I'll second what Sheer says. Pika gets ***** hard by combos, so ultimately the opponent has to do a lot less work to defeat him than otherwise might be expected.

 

[Nybb]

Yes pikachu is pritty much the unanimous best character in ssb64. He has the best combination of range, priority, comboing, kill moves, edguarding, aerial speed, ground speed, recovery, etc. Which is pritty similar to metaknight in brawl.

Main difference which makes pikachu much less broken than metaknight = comboing

In ssb64 if lower tier characters actually get to pikachu they can combo the hell out of him due to the physics of ssb64. In brawl if a lower tier (or hell any char that can't chaingrab him) actually gets to metaknight they can only hit him once. After they hit him once they have to repeat the whole process of outsmarting/outspacing him just to hit him 1 more time. Meanwhile metaknight can play 8000 times as reckless because all his moves are broken.

So to sum it up the combo friendly physics of ssb64 make Pikachu way less broken than Metaknight imo.

While that is true, it is somewhat mitigated by the fact that it goes both ways: Pikachu can also combo-**** other characters back. Most of his moves can turn into uairs off the screen, or a fsmash edgeguard. Plus, Pika tends to be able to take more combos than other characters. For example, if you get in on a character like DK, Falcon, Link, or Ness, they are likely dead. If you can get in on Pikachu, he can sometimes use up-B invincibility to get out, and can often make it back to the stage with his epic recovery (or at least more often than others).

Basically, I'm saying that yes, Pikachu can be comboed, and that does help to balance him somewhat, but he is still arguably the character (or at least one of the characters) who is least damaged by being comboed. And don't forget to add to that the fact that he can combo viciously himself.

 

[asianaussie]

I agree with Sheer and Kefit here.

IIRC, one thing about banning Meta in Brawl is that he has no particularly effective CPs or counter-stages (as far as I know) against him. There is no-one who can comprehensively counter him - he has too many options. Pika is nowhere near Meta's level, because while he is quite good at what he does, there are characters who can quite comfortably beat him. A Fox and a Pika on the same level will be quite evenly matched on Hyrule, for instance. Falcon can deal with him on Dreamland. While Pika has no bad matchups, there are characters who can compete viably. In fact, lower tiers can compete viably with him as well, assuming they have a decent level of skill. I know plenty of Luigis and Yoshis who can attest to this.

 

[t3h Icy]

Although Pikachu can wipe the cast like Meta-Knight there are a few things that make it different.

1) Meta-Knight (and most of Brawl) is easier to play. Pikachu requires skill to be decent with.

2) Meta-Knight can be chaingrabbed by a few characters, and Pikachu can be 0-deathed. Granted, chaingrabs are easier, but it doesn't do nearly as much as taking a stock off.

3) Meta-Knight has an advantage against most characters, but it's different than Pikachu. Meta-Knight can literally shutdown characters, while characters bad against Pikachu (lol, all of them) can still take out Pikachu in one combo, but initially getting it is much harder than Pikachu can do back.

One interesting thing though is Isai's best character is Pikachu, yet Ally uses Snake.

 

[Surri-Sama]

there is no connection between metaknight of Brawl and Pikachu of Smash64

i dont know if you know what you are starting but it will end in flame or some other stupid trollish thing so if you want to talk to these guys about this random thing, take it to PM or some other IM system!