Meta Pikachu Matchup Thread

[IndigoSSB]

Hey guys, we are officially restarting the character discussion threads! Saki- will still be in charge of the main matchup thread, but from now on I'll be creating the character matchup threads.

Main Matchup Thread

Pikachu Frame Data
Corrin Frame Data

Goal of Primary Discussion:

• Find our strengths in this matchup
• Discuss our cons in this matchup
• Choose our best stages for this matchup
• Discuss Neutral Game
• Discuss Ledge Game
• Discuss Off Stage Game
• Discuss Stock Ending
• Discuss Advantage
• Discuss Disadvantage
• Overall Tips
• Summary

Character Specific Topics:

• Ways to punish Quick Attack.
• Coping with Pikachu's significantly better recovery and possible ways to edgeguard.
• Escaping Pikachu's combos and strings.
• Are we forced to approach? Dragon Fang Shot vs. Thunder Jolt.
• Any other topics of concern.

I'll allow it this once, but please also discuss what match-ups you think are important and which ones you think are more redundant. As of now the only matchup planned for the future is Fox, your input would really help me make a schedule for future discussions.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Ideally I'd like the discussion to end with a matchup ratio consensus to update the main thread with.

 

[Skitrel]

Even matchup.

Pika lacks range compared to us but attacks fast and hard once he gets inside our spacing, this allows him to stay inside our zone and abuse our lack of quick startup moves.

We shut Pika out with range.

Bair becomes less useful in the matchup, but I've found Pikachu a soft target for pins.

Pika can't punish fsmash tippers or IP kickaway.

He's still an opponent to be respected and attacks fast enough with strong enough combos to make up for his hardship getting inside.

AVOID Battlefield layout vs Pika. I don't care how much you like it, don't do it to yourself. You don't want to deal with Pika's endless QAC, he gets inside our range very easily with it.

Offstage I don't recommend chasing Pika, he gimps well, we recover bad. Sit back from the ledge and punish quick attack landings if he does them onto stage, but not too far from the ledge so as not to be able to reach a getup option.

We're not forced to approach unless we're sitting uselessly a mile away from him. The trick is to sit outside Pika's range to bair his projectiles, we're able to dash perfect shield through many characters projectiles to punish their endlag with IP.

Conclusion: In general, keep pika out with Corrin spacing. As long as you avoid quickattack>utilt approaches he just can't get in, but once he does then we feel the pain.

50:50

***

Matchups I'd like to see sooner rather than later:

Fox
Falcon
Mario
ZSS
Mewtwo
Mario
Greninja

I'm leaving Bayo out for now as I'm pretty confident that the atmosphere is going to result in more nerfs. I don't think there's much value in wasting our time with it until the dust has settled.

 

[WispBae]

Matchups I'd like to see sooner rather than later:

Fox
Falcon
Mario
ZSS
Mewtwo
Mario
Greninja

I'm leaving Bayo out for now as I'm pretty confident that the atmosphere is going to result in more nerfs. I don't think there's much value in wasting our time with it until the dust has settled.

I second Fox, Falcon and Mario. I need help there.

Haven't had too much experience with the MU yet, but I would agree with 50:50, or slightly in Pika's favor, given I think Corrin has a harder time landing compared to Pika, imo.

 

[McZaxon]

I'd love to see Diddy on that list. for some reason that match up is horrible for me. Although it's probably because I suck at catching that damn banana.

Overall, I've never had to much trouble with Pikachu. He's fast and nimble, but I always know how to keep him at bay with proper spacing, like Skitrel has stated. Who, may I say gives great advice.

However, with Pikachu, I try to watch out for their up-B when coming back to the stage. Whever I get stuck in that, I always eat a punish. Especially if I don't tech my landing after being thrown from the attack.

 

[PK Gaming]

There are few instances of this matchup being played at high level. Just last weekend we saw ESAM throw down against Pikachu's NAKAT (1:33:10 and there's Earth vs Shimitake. Not a particularly difficult matchup for either character. Pikachu has the mobility and speed advantage while Corrin controls more space, deals significantly more damage and has an easier time killing. I'm not a fan of giving numbers, but Corrin probably has a slight advantage.

 

[Skitrel]

I know those matches show it to look in Corrin's favour, but take a close look at them with a Corrin point of view. A lot goes unpunished that Pikas could have punished.

I feel like those fights only went the way they did because Corrin isn't a very well known matchup at the higher level. There aren't many Corrins at the high end for the practice.

Let us also not forget that if there's anyone that knows the Pikachu matchup the best - It's ESAM.

 

[PK Gaming]

I know those matches show it to look in Corrin's favour, but take a close look at them with a Corrin point of view. A lot goes unpunished that Pikas could have punished.

I feel like those fights only went the way they did because Corrin isn't a very well known matchup at the higher level. There aren't many Corrins at the high end for the practice.

Let us also not forget that if there's anyone that knows the Pikachu matchup the best - It's ESAM.

I wasn't using those matches to prove that the matchup is in Corrin's favor. I just chose those videos to showcase the matchup at high level play (I didn't really care about the outcome.) Anyway, while I agree that Corrin is still a relatively knew character, I disagree with your assertion regarding ESAM. If anything, ESAM's experience with Pikachu shows us exactly what Corrin should be doing in that matchup in that particular match up.

 

[Skitrel]

I wasn't using those matches to prove that the matchup is in Corrin's favor. I just chose those videos to showcase the matchup at high level play (I didn't really care about the outcome.) Anyway, while I agree that Corrin is still a relatively knew character, I disagree with your assertion regarding ESAM. If anything, ESAM's experience with Pikachu shows us exactly what Corrin should be doing in that matchup in that particular match up.

Definitely got me a bit wrong there PK. I was saying what you just said - That ESAM knows how to play against Pikachu very well so it's quite likely that he's better than most Corrins at the matchup. That in my opinion makes it a bit unfair to judge compared to the usual meta.

 

[IndigoSSB]

I don't have a lot of time right now so I'll give my thoughts on the match-up on Sunday if I can.

I just wanted to share what I think I'll be making the schedule for matchups following this one:

Week 2: Mewtwo
Week 3: Mario
Week 4: Fox
Week 5: Captain Falcon

I don't want to plan too far ahead in case a "flavor of the month" character appears that we need to discuss. Mewtwo is a relatively new and relevant match up so I gave some priority to that, followed by some characters that are commonly used.

 

[Gemba Board]

I find that when you have the stock lead and pika is forced to approach, we can do retreating sh nair at ranges where quickattack will confirm into utilt. Nair lingers for a while (14f?) and the late hitbox can juggle pika into some fairs.

Also from my experience, we get usmashed pretty hard on landing. It's awful. B reversed DFS could help mix up the landing but it kinda stalls us in the air where pika can uair us for free.

This MU feels even until we have to approach. I've had pikas ftilt trade with or flat out beat my IP at times. Oos nair gets me every time, even when i think I've spaced my aerials properly. In CQC situations, pikas jab is faster than anything we can do. Our oos options are kinda limited and unsafe. I feel like all we can do is jump out or roll.

Feels like 55:45 in pikas favor to me.

 

[Saki-]

Hot linked the main body and changed the topic. Sorry for the delay

 

[IndigoSSB]

Some think its slightly in Pika's favor, some think its slightly in Corrin's favor, and some think its even, but the general consensus seems to be that neither party has a significant advantage over the other. Corrin can keep Pika at mid-range, however once Pika gets in he can do serious damage because of our lack of a combo breaker. For now I'll call this match-up:

50-50

Next up is Mewtwo! I'll try to invite some of the players from the mewtwo boards to get their input.

Saki-

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I think the only real annoying thing about this MU is his Quick Attack. I might just be inexperienced with it, as I heard he extends his hurtboxes when he does them (N-Air, anyone?). Other than that, he does combos us pretty hard once he gets in. It's kind of like fighting characters like Mario and Fox. They combo hard, but they lack the range to get in on us if we don't let our guard down. Beating Pikachu's aerial approaches should be easy. Once he's in the air, he's pretty much going to attack. So, either you Shield and Grab or beat it with your own aerials. He also gimps us fairly easily, according to ESAM. Pretty much just F-Airs or B-Airs our recovery (takes the trade) and gimps us. The only real advantage I feel we have in this MU is range.

Skitrel I don't think our B-Air's really good in this one matchup in particular. Wether it'd be to beat his jolts (IIRC, N-Air, F-Air and maybe even Jab do the job better without having you comitt to the turnaround + B-Air startup), not to mention the hitboxs hits rather high.

 

[GerMoj]

I'm a Pika main who just happens to have a friend that mains Corrin, so I'll try to add my two cents in here if there is no problem. Corrin outspaces Pika just the way Marth, Lucina and Cloud do but Pikachu outspeeds Corrin way to fast, we don't even need to QA actually to get in if we wanted to as our ground game is better and Pika can aproach, shield and keep aproaching, also we can outcamp Corrin with jolts as a full hop jolt can neutraliza a fully charged dragon shot and the bite has some quite lag afterwards making up for a grab or JCUS if Corrin is at kill % Offstage is not easy for Corrin either as Pikachu has a lot of ways to gimp Corrin, you might thing Corrin's Up-B is pretty safe because of it's huge hitbox but well... Diddy's tend to think the same about the monkey flips and tether recoverys think they are fast enough. well...

https://youtu.be/auR4b2kxQt8?t=167
https://youtu.be/6R_cMPjU6X4?t=50

Huge hitbox doesn't mean safety ( I have one of this on my friend but the match took like 4 minutes and I don't have a capture card so I can't showcase Corrin right now) BTW, this is a true combo if the first thunder hits.

Also you might not want to go offstage while edgeguarding as he can mix up his QA and even thunder spike you if you get too greedy. Also I0ve survived a couple of down air spikes here and there, so don't go for that.

What Corrin can do however is to try to float just outside of Pikas space by staying in the air and mixing it up with Side-B. In the air Pika needs to commit to an option and there's when you can connect a fair or a nair to do your stuff. Also instant Dragon Lunge can punish Pikachu really hard is it comes out really quickly, it kills and allows you to retreat. Don't throw F-smash on neutral as we can get a lot from a grab or nair.

On the edgeguarde the best and safest option in my opinion is getting the snapback on the ledge, if Pikachu has already burned his second jump you can nair near the ledge (offstage) to try to get an stage spike or something like that (beware that if he has a second jump he could double jump thunder from the deep and spike you).

For killin up air might do the work and your hard read smashes. Dragon lunge works really well too and obviously a grab casue Pikachu is really light

tl;tr Keep pika in the air, avoid ground game and camping. Side B punishes hard, don't mess with him offstage.

55:45 on Pika's favor in my opinion

 

[gridatttack]

55-45

Pika's QA is the main issue, but unless the opponent has insane combinations with it, their landing gets predicable. I usually throw a Nair to catch their QA attempt. Other issue is we can get comboed somewhat hard, but we can keep out of him, just watch out QA.

Also, the biggest downside we have IMO is that his Bair spikes our Draconic Ascent. It sucks because it all takes a hit and you are spiked and can't recover, so watch out for that.

For Pika's who like spamming neutral B, believe or not, try to throw in a Counter Surge here and there (or even spam it) against the thunderbolts. CS has insanely low cooldown after the hitboxes disappear, so you can bait a dash grab with CS and dodge or attack or even counter again if you read they attack. I like jumping into the descending ball of lightning and counter it, as I noted Pikas tend to like to QA after throwing them, and CS hitboxes are huge. They really can't do much against it, especially on the edge, but I recommend smart usage of them to disrupt them or even get a KO if you note they like throwing the thunderbolt in the air high.