Picking up Squirtle as a Secondary

[WispBae]

So I've decided I wanted to pick up Squirtle as a secondary to my Charizard (very original, I know), and I had a couple questions regarding his playstyle.

My thoughts behind this choice were mainly having someone with much more mobility than Zard, and has more of an emphasis on pressure and offense-oriented game, as opposed to Zard's bait-and-punish mentality. All the shell techniques as well also attract me to Squirtle, using him in a "trickster" fashion is definitely appealing.

Though I do have a few questions going in and still getting used to him...

• What should my mindset be with Squirtle? What weaknesses should I keep in mind, to be more clear.
• Is his foward-throw chaingrab only good with fast fallers?
• How do I effectively use his neutral and down b's? (I've been trying to use his down b as a means to get into combos or edgeguard, but barely use his neutral).
  
• If I withdraw offstage to stop an opponent from recovering, am I screwed to SD at that point due to momentum? Or can I recover somehow?

Thanks in advance! (Watching Dad and Burnsy play is like watching ballet, beautiful... T_T)

 

[didds]

1. You're fragile and your techs suck. You should put emphasis on constant and purposeful movement to avoid being put into a bad defensive situation. Squirtle is also vulnerable to crouch canceling so you need become familiar with his anti-cc moves and use them accordingly to deal with this. (grabs, dsmash, bubble, dair)

2. I find it's best with mid weights and (almost) fast fallers. At low percent, you're better off uthrowing FF'ers and setting up the tech chase. The CG with Fthrow is DI dependent. It's a good mixup at high percent with Dthrow (kill throw), if you call the DI away from Fthrow then Dthrow can kill, and the opposite will land you a Fair with Fthrow.

3. Bubble (downB) is pretty hard to hit the gimp with, but it's a great combo starter. If they miss the tech then you get a free grab. I like to either short hop bubble and use it as a zoning tool or on occasion ss > short hop bubble as an unexpected approach. I'm still learning neutral B, but it seems it's best used as an approach tool. It's good though as this guy @ TheReflexWonder can attest.

4. If you immediately hit B upon flying off, there is time to DJ and UpB back to stage.

edit: for 4 I didn't clarify that hitting B is simply to cancel your withdraw. For the most part I would never side b off the stage for an edgeguard anyway, there are better options to use.

 

[WispBae]

@ didds
Could you elaborate more on "fragile"? As in he's gets launched easily or is combo-food like Zard? And for techs "sucking", as in I should avoid rolling or trying to tech off the ground when launched?

I was using Neutral B before to get some free damage once foes are off stage, but the spacing is so odd... It can stop opponents dead still for a second as well... I wonder if you could use that time they are stalled to attack, like with a Nair, Fair or FSmash... Think it has too much ending lag but will experiment with it later.

As for using withdrawal offstage, it does sound like a death sentence, but it has such good knockback at higher percents, it feels perfect to finish off larger foes with predictable recoveries (DK, Bowswer, Ganon). With the 4% armor, I'd be willing to trade the damage to secure a stock...

 

[didds]

fragile as in very light and floaty ish. You should still try to tech and everything, I'm just pointing out that once you get "caught" Squirtle is pretty much two stomps and a knee away from death. His techs are also absurdly short although I don't know the exact frame data.

He's a glass canon of sorts, it can take all day for your opponent to finally lock you down, but once they do you can be followed about as easy as it is to follow a real turtle. Hard reads aren't even necessary for your opponent, they can just react. Bad techs combined with his early death size can be a tragic combo, which is why the way of the squirtle is one with a heavy emphasis on evasion and tricky pokes, and knowing when to capitalize once you're in.

As for side B, I'll just say that either be confident in your read with it or don't use the move. I've tech chased by the edge with it to lead into a kill, but I've SD'd many times as well due to not having confidence in my decision.

 

[Jamwa]

Squirtle is not offensive, he's bait and punish too. Offensive Squirtle is gimmicky if you can even call it gimmicky. Takes smart people about 2 matches to figure out how to beat Withdraw and his other low range/disjoint attacks.

Sure, when baiting you can be offensive, but don't commit. Be like the Water [Gun]. Always mix up your approaches and movement (unless of course it's working over and over).

 

[didds]

be water my friend

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Water Gun is more like a disruption that allows you to make an opening. It puts the fight at a standstill and forces characters to find an alternative when they're frozen for a second, either through one jump-in or repeated annoyance.

Also, Squirtle armor is no longer %-based; it's knockback-based, so it is more effective at low percents and less effective at high percents.

 

[Burnsy]

I think Squirtle can actually do pretty safe quick bursts of offensive pressure. I mean, he's not a space animal but he isn't Sonic or Olimar either. His "low range" on his attacks are only as limited as your own movement and spacing capabilities with those moves. I dont feel like anyone has a good handle on "best practices" in this regard.

 

[WispBae]

I think Squirtle can actually do pretty safe quick bursts of offensive pressure. I mean, he's not a space animal but he isn't Sonic or Olimar either. His "low range" on his attacks are only as limited as your own movement and spacing capabilities with those moves. I dont feel like anyone has a good handle on "best practices" in this regard.

Part of choosing to play Smash at a competition level is the improv that Smash brings to the table, based on the non pre-set combos and movement options. I feel that there is no hard set guide on "How to play X", but rather tendencies that can give the character of choice more options.

Is the meta game still too new for Squirtle? Maybe. I think the more important question is "does a meta game exist" for him? He's so maneuverable that despite a lack far reaching attacks, he can do so much and can adapt to situations so much easier.

Played for a couple hours last night and was having such a hard time using him, it makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong as opposed to "that's just how the character is". I feel like my main issue right now is getting combos started...

 

[WispBae]

Water Gun is more like a disruption that allows you to make an opening. It puts the fight at a standstill and forces characters to find an alternative when they're frozen for a second, either through one jump-in or repeated annoyance.

Also, Squirtle armor is no longer %-based; it's knockback-based, so it is more effective at low percents and less effective at high percents.

Sorry to be that guy, but what do you mean knockback based? As in the lower damage the opponent has, the higher the priority the shell has? Or visa versa?

 

[Burnsy]

What he mean is, whether a move from an opponent is strong enough to hit through armor and send Squirtle flying has to do with how much knockback the move does. How much knockback a move does depends on its damage, knockback properties, and Squirtles current percent before being hit. At lower percents he takes less knockback, so in these situations there is a better chance that the knockback value will be lower than the armors threshold.

 

[didds]

edit: ninja'd, what he said

well I'll add to give some practical insight. Falco's shine has a lot of base KB so it can immediately break squirtle's armor, while mario's fireballs will never break the armor since the KB growth is so low.

 

[WispBae]

edit: ninja'd, what he said

well I'll add to give some practical insight. Falco's shine has a lot of base KB so it can immediately break squirtle's armor, while mario's fireballs will never break the armor since the KB growth is so low.

So shell based moves become less effective as you take more damage? Hmm...

Out of curiosity, does this also apply to Bowser's shell oritented moves? Or is this Squirtle exclusive?

Also what color shell has the most priority? I've been using the pink one, but I really like the orange one's movement speed.

Nah, jk. If higher knockback attacks break shell forms, does the shell still protect me in some way? Like being sent flying less quickly or less of a distance?

 

[didds]

nope, just a threshold that's either reached or not. not sure on bowser. I personally go with the majestic purple squirtle for the swag factor

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's the same for Bowser, though crawl armor is a different value. Bowser generally has Medium Armor, while Squirtle has a mix of Light and Medium (Medium for the beginning of D-Smash, F-Smash, and N-Air; Light for everything else).

 

[Burnsy]

I KNEW DSMASH HAD MEDIUM ARMOR. I ****ING KNEW IT.

Brawlbox is kinda unclear cuz on some moves it plainly states where the armor is and its strength, but some moves seem to apply it via subactions and I don't know how those work.

 

[WispBae]

Third night of playing Squirtle. My thumbs have broken and I cannot see clearly. I have taken to smoking to become more like squirtle, and have ordered a cosplay costume to feel one with the shell.

I'm becoming a bit more comfortable with his ridiculously short attacks, and I found myself actually doing well last night. I was finally getting some combos in using Bubble, down tilt or withdrawal, but I was curious as to how fast can his dash attack be cancelled? I find myself dash dancing/shell shifting alot more with Squirtle, but many times when I try to shell shift slide into a Smash attack, I end up dash attacking....

Also, when trying to escape being juggled, does his down air spike? I can't decide on whether a neutral air or down air is a better option for when I'm coming down... Normally, a logical choice in my mind would be to use Nair for the shell armor, but his down air is pretty on par with the fox drill stomp...

Oddly enough, training with squirtle has made me also realize how old my controller really is. The original purple gamecube controller, the exact same one I used in elementary school, stayed with me so long. Finally retiring it, getting a new one. That makes it the officially most used controller I've ever had (right behind my 360 remote, thanks Borderlands series!). Still works but the buttons are pretty mashed and the sticks are a bit wobbly, and I feel like my inputs will become much better and more precise with a fresh controller.

Sorry for the rant, I really appreciate everyone's help so far! Squirtle is deceptively hard, but I will make him work!

 

[Chaos0205]

I'm becoming a bit more comfortable with his ridiculously short attacks, and I found myself actually doing well last night. I was finally getting some combos in using Bubble, down tilt or withdrawal, but I was curious as to how fast can his dash attack be cancelled? I find myself dash dancing/shell shifting alot more with Squirtle, but many times when I try to shell shift slide into a Smash attack, I end up dash attacking....

Also, when trying to escape being juggled, does his down air spike? I can't decide on whether a neutral air or down air is a better option for when I'm coming down... Normally, a logical choice in my mind would be to use Nair for the shell armor, but his down air is pretty on par with the fox drill stomp...

Looks like his dash attack can't be canceled. Either that or I just suck. Personally though, I never found much use for it unless the opponent was at a high percentage and near the edge. Even then I try to avoid it. It's pretty easy to dodge and if it is you can be punished for it, but if you can find a way to work with it then I say go for it. I find Squirtles air game to be a bit better than his ground game. As far as his down air goes, no, it doesn't spike, but it generally sends the opponent up which is great for an air combo. Keep in mind his forward air is pretty strong. When being juggled, I think it depends on what percentage your opponent is at. At high percentages squirts neutral air can send your opponent flying pretty far horizontally (but they'd have to be at a pretty high percentage for it to ko them. At or around 150) at low percentages, I'd recommend his down air, as it can lead into a combo (dair, into dsmash, into either uair then fair or just fair)

That being said, I've only been playing Squirtle for about a month, and mostly against computers, so I'm hardly what anyone would call a "master." These are just a few things I've noticed or picked up. Hope this helped, even if just a little.

 

[Burnsy]

Squirtle dash attack can also combo into dropzone aerials, it has a few other uses but its true that it won't be the best choice in many situations. It's nice that you can hit with it on one side of a sheild and move behind then (like shieks), which is pretty useful if they are positioned very close to a ledge. You'll just hit their shield and be aerial behind them instantly.