Pesky Ol' Neutral Game

[Double Helix]

I was playing at Toasted Ravs 4 in St. Louis this past weekend, and I noticed something that I hate to admit.

My neutral game is absolute garbage.

So I made it out of pools. Good for me. The problem is, when I was playing friendlies, my neutral game was awful against most non-Jigglypuff players. Puff is one of my favorite matchups though (even if I don't always win). I feel as though my game could be much stronger, but I really need help with the neutral game. When I am on the offensive, my combos or follow-ups are generally good. When I was facing someone better than me when they were also on, well, mostly Falcon, their neutral game tore me to shreds.

But enough story time. The point is, how do I practice that? If I can hit them, I am usually good for a bit. I know my defensive options pretty well, but how can I prevent getting hit out of the neutral game?

I was going to post it in the main forums, but I figured I could get more advice here, due to the many "Don't play Ness" or "Change characters" response I normally get.

 

[Gatoray]

I feel I have some trouble with the N-game as well so I can't really help from an enlightened perspective, but here's my $0.02. The problem with Ness and N-game is that almost everything that seems like it would be great for approaching is either laggy as hell or has short range. That being said, unless you are a Fair master and can consistently Fair them to the other side of the stage (something I enjoy doing against players equal to or less than my skill level), you kinda have to play like Samus or Link and just throw stuff out there.

PK Fire might be useful for conditioning, and if you can get the SDJCPKFC (Super Double Jump PK Fire Cancel Yes I Do Love Acronyms), which is basically DJC -> PKF so fast that you land on the frame it starts, you might be able to pull some clever baits. This is because Ness' audio for PKF is still playing for a few frames after you gain back control from the landing lag and if they aren't paying attention you could rush in with a Dair or Dash Attack. IDK, this is just more theory crafting without actually testing it.

Another thing that could be interesting is throwing out a sort of boomerang-style PKT, where you plan the projectile with intentions to hit, but make it safe if you miss by aiming for Ness' head to enter into a getup situation with some good invincibility frames ready for when they try to punish you. PKT juggling is good for racking up damage too, you just really can't get punished for it to be worth it.

 

[Double Helix]

Well, most of the problem is I think my spacing is good, but the character I am facing is faster than Ness or their dash dance is better than mine so they get more range off of it. It means that my spacing is good for some of the time, but the other character starts to approach and is able to get a hit before I can set up a defense or a counter attack. It is a weird problem that I have most against Falcon, but it happens sometimes against Sheik with a grab. When Sheik grabs you, it is death. Most other characters are fine as far as I can tell though (in terms of the neutral game). It is mostly just something that is hard to practice, especially with the infrequency of playing people.
Approaching wasn't the problem and neither was defending (though my shield got low sometimes). It was always those moments where the shift from neutral to a different phase in the fight happened while I was still playing the neutral game. This may or may not help. I will try to avoid posting at five in the morning from now on.

 

[Gatoray]

I think I understand the basics of what you're trying to say. I've experienced the feeling of helpless-Ness (omg, pun of the year award 2014 nominee right here) when trying to figure out what to do when you're trapped in between a rock and a hard place: the rock being the combo you're in and the hard place being the lack of options for you to do anything about it. Ness really gets no respect at all, there's almost literally nothing safe he can do OOS (I'm experimenting with USmash OOS though) and I have no idea what to do after a CC.

But back on topic (I'm starting to realize your question isn't NESS-essarily exclusive to Ness, oh man I'm on a roll), I'd encourage you to play with wavedashing as an alternative to dashdancing. It's much easier to follow up with your limited variety of options from a non-running stance, at least for me anyway since I don't have a habit of CCing a dash animation. Practice trying to mimic the movement of your opponent as long as you're not getting projectile camped and download any movement patterns you can find. Remember, any move you throw out can be punished, so try to bait and switch the timings and lengths of your attacks using Ness' handy auto-canceled aerial frames and L-cancels. Baiting with an auto-canceled Dair works especially well.

 

[Double Helix]

I actually use wavedashing a lot to control the direction I am facing, whether it becomes a spaced fair or a really low bair or...well there are actually plenty of options. I guess my question is more of a...how do I practice the neutral game...rather than a...what are some of my neutral game options. Since most of my play is either alone or against players that are more new to the scene than I am, I don't get to practice as much as I should when it comes to having a strong neutral game.

So really...something that should be in the first post...how in the world do I practice my neutral game? Because it sucks, but it only really shows when I am facing people better than me, and they probably don't have to be better by a large margin.

 

[Gatoray]

Have you looked into melee online? I've been playing online for just over a year, pretty much from when it first started, and even through all the lag the accessibility and ease of matchmaking really sped up my learning process. Lag isn't a factor when it comes to the fundamentals, and nowadays there's enough people in each region to only have around 2-3 frames of lag, which is very playable. Simna can attest to this; I see him online occasionally and have learned a few cool Ness tricks from playing him.

 

[Double Helix]

I've looked into it, and I almost got it, but it was really close to school. School internet is a nightmare. Now that it's summer I thought about it, but since I moved I haven't quite gotten internet that can reliably load youtube videos, let alone play Melee online. Also, it is really hard to get the settings for my computer correct so that I can play single player without tons of lag. I happen to have one of those good processors that don't work well with Dolphin.

 

[fRuitcak3]

The only issue here is that I have a hard time fighting top tiers with Ness (Fox and Falco) Mostly due to his close range attacks. I mostly start off matches with his down A sweep and up a crouch up air attack twice to forward A neutral-air but fox and Falco's shine usually end up countering me. Help?

 

[Double Helix]

Against them...nair out of shield. Stay mobile. Once you get a decent hit...don't let up. Be "that guy" and chaingrab them. If they approach you from above...utilt is good with trading with or beating their moves.

 

[Gatoray]

Ness has chaingrabs?

 

[Double Helix]

Ness has chaingrabs?

Wow. Sorry about the late reply. Since I'm back home for the summer I have zero friends in town that play so my focus has been on Magic the Gathering. But yes. Ness has DI specific chaingrabs on Fox and Falco. If they DI hard to the right or left on your up throw, then you can dash into a jump-cancelled grab for the regrab, rinse and repeat until about 65% if I remember correctly. If they don't DI at all, then you can Utilt into a grab (though at some percents it takes 2) and if they DI slightly to the left or right, you can usually wavedash -> Utilt (or 2) -> regrab. The slight DI is the hardest to react to in my experience. In any case, I only recommend it on Final Destination since it is very easy to get to the platforms from Ness' up throw. If there are platforms, I generally just tech-chase. It is far too risky to guess wrong.

 

[silentspeed03]

To anyone digging this deep..
Love yourself..

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

anyone else having trouble here still even in 2017 use these
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYWXCTKKDV0&list=PLy6wMjtrwVn4cKPZzzRKBlUbnEOeEOOyz&index=10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvTrJo3DNog&list=PLy6wMjtrwVn4cKPZzzRKBlUbnEOeEOOyz&index=11

That is some useful info there, but sometimes the problem isn't knowing what to do. Sometimes the problem is doing. The barrier between knowing and doing is where the real work takes place. Its where practice and experience come into play.

 

[its probably a mind game]

I mainly try to just bait and avoid approaching at all costs, and definitely don't approach on the ground. Conditioning with empty full hops and mixing in djc down airs is good. As far as what to go against a Shiek or Marth that's up a stock, it's tough.