Perfect Copy ~ Copy Abilities Guide (WIP)

[Jethroo]

Once again you have to view powers from the point of view of "is this power good against the character i got it from". Ness's power against Ness "could" be very useful edge guarding Ness and his unsafe and predictable recovery.

 

[Phan7om]

I think Samus' ability is placed well, but I recommend an addendum for the explanation provided which just mentions that if Kirby can charge it while Samus is taking her sweet time recovering, he's rewarded with a badly needed long-range punish option versus a character who vastly out-ranges him.

Thanks for the input man, ive been pretty lazy with the explanations, I probably should get to that lol.

Also, Ness' ability should be higher up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMEKqKrl2IM
Watch from 4:30 onward. As well doing damage you can bait them panicking to heal some health.

Yeah lightdash, ive seen that vid. Chu uses it pretty well in that match, but inhale has been taken into the account that its not only used for edgeguarding. It has its use onstage, baiting sheilds beating them and whatnot. I consider everything that inhale is capable of, a lot of people only think about it as edgeguarding or kirbyciding. Think of it similar to how Wario or Bowser players use their command grab, but its a lot better. Taking that away just to get a move that can edgeguard ness, Kirby can edgeguard pretty well himself with his aerials, PK flash may be a little better at edgeguarding but the onstage use is outclassd by it. Thats why i put it where it is.

Once again you have to view powers from the point of view of "is this power good against the character i got it from". Ness's power against Ness "could" be very useful edge guarding Ness and his unsafe and predictable recovery.

I consider that, and I also consider losing inhale itself. Ness's power could be very useful, then again Falcon's power could also be very useful for edgeguarding unless he sweetspots, but there are factors about his ability that make it so low. Chu made a "power" tier list for Brawl and he put Ness as one of the worst. True its faster, and there arent magnetic autosweetspot ledges, but the idea is still there. I dont only go off of his ideas, but it did kinda influence me. I do still think it is a viable option tho. Ill reconsider the placement.

 

[Phan7om]

bump
10chars

 

[Phan7om]

Reogranized to look more pleasing!

 

[Thor]

I have to assume that Falco's ability is merely A tier because Inhale is ridiculously good against him [more than I realize]? SHDL is utterly disgusting and messes up Falco's approach so immensely that I think it is about on-par with Ivysaur's copy ability that nets a free Solarbeam [a better projectile than ZSS paralyzer pretty much without a doubt]. Just wanted verification on this...

 

[FreeGamer]

How come Thunder Jolt is so high? O_o

 

[Phan7om]

I have to assume that Falco's ability is merely A tier because Inhale is ridiculously good against him [more than I realize]? SHDL is utterly disgusting and messes up Falco's approach so immensely that I think it is about on-par with Ivysaur's copy ability that nets a free Solarbeam [a better projectile than ZSS paralyzer pretty much without a doubt]. Just wanted verification on this...

Its definitely really good, I might have it too low lol. Its not Solarbeam high but I think it might be better than where I have it. I have it solely because Inhale both onstage and especially offstage puts him in a horrible position... but then again Im probably like the one of the best overall inhaler so theres that I should consider. Otherwise it would be top 3 easily, the ones above just have much better recoveries. Thanks for the input tho.

How come Thunder Jolt is so high? O_o

Where would you put it? Im open to input. I have it pretty high because it really messes with Pika's approaches and forces him to go a certain predictable path. I know its definitely good fundamentally, but idk maybe not that good.

 

[FreeGamer]

I can't say. I've never gotten to test that one out.

 

[skellitorman]

Thunder jolt is really good, and I think its placement makes sense. Much like Mario's projectile Kirby can jump and shoot a thunder jolt per jump (as in shooting multiple jolts before touching the ground.)

Gohan: There's a few positions that I disagree with. Ike's in particular is alot better than its current placement and is significantly better than Falcon Punch. I see no reason for Falcon Punch to ever be used over Kirby's other attacks in any situation in a 1 v 1 situation (aside from styling). Therefore I believe it to be F tier.

Eruption on the other hand does have situations where it can actually be helpful especially in the edgeguard situation. It's an armor attack that has a very good AA hitbox so with a good read you could at least get a trade in your favor. As for edgeguarding, it can beat Ike's recovery options. Since Ike's ability has air control (unlike Marth's copy B) Kirby could jump and move in the air while holding B to outmaneuver the beginning part of Ike's Up+B and then land on the sword with the armor which will trade hits with Ike. If he tries to recover from above he can still be hit with Eruption since the hitbox is high. Eruption can also spike Ike's recovery though I don't know how to get it to spike.

For Link and TLink's copied arrows, Kirby can jump and shoot an arrow per jump similar to how he can do that with Mario's projectile. Furthermore the arrows can be used to gimp the Links' recoveries. There is no way that it is worse than Falcon Punch.

I also don't like G&W's placement since the bacon does not guarantee good angles that make it difficult for G&W to approach. Unlike the Pikmin throw, Bacon does not have any projectiles that go straight relatively fast. They get thrown upwards at different angles/speeds that sometimes aren't effective. Because there are chances for it to not be in Kirby's favor I think it should be significantly lowered.

 

[Phan7om]

Thunder jolt is really good, and I think its placement makes sense. Much like Mario's projectile Kirby can jump and shoot a thunder jolt per jump (as in shooting multiple jolt's before touching the ground.)

Gohan: There's a few positions that I disagree with. Ike's in particular is alot better than its current placement and is significantly better than Falcon Punch. I see no reason for Falcon Punch to ever be used over Kirby's other attacks in any situation in a 1 v 1 situation (aside from styling). Therefore I believe it to be F tier.

Eruption on the other hand does have situations where it can actually be helpful especially in the edgeguard situation. It's an armor attack that has a very good AA hitbox so with a good read you could at least get a trade in your favor. As for edgeguarding, it can beat Ike's recovery options. Since Ike's ability has air control (unlike Marth's copy B) Kirby could jump and move in the air while holding B to outmaneuver the beginning part of Ike's Up+B and then land on the sword with the armor which will trade hits with Ike. If he tries to recover from above he can still be hit with Eruption since the hitbox is high. Eruption can also spike Ike's recovery though I don't know how to get it to spike.

For Link and TLink's copied arrows, Kirby can jump and shoot an arrow per jump similar to how he can do that with Mario's projectile. Furthermore the arrows can be used to gimp the Links' recoveries. There is no way that it is worse than Falcon Punch.

I also don't like G&W's placement since the bacon does not guarantee good angles that make it difficult for G&W to approach. Unlike the Pikmin throw, Bacon does not have any projectiles that go straight relatively fast. They get thrown upwards at different angles/speeds that sometimes aren't effective. Because there are chances for it to not be in Kirby's favor I think it should be significantly lowered.

Thanks man, ill try to reorganize things. I agree with a lot of stuff you said. GnW's position is pretty good when used right, as in helping your approaches, forcing sheilds, make it hard for GnW to punish you, and the semi-spike hitbox of the move is very underrated, it comes out pretty fast and really messes with him offstage combined that it can be autocancelled on landing... but i can see why thats not as useful as I would think. As for FP, I dont know what I was thinking putting him there tbh lol. My logic was that he cant sweetspot so it would be easy to land... but there are several options that cover that missed sweetspot, its a pretty bad move i agree. Ike's tho, i gotta test out, because I find it similar to FP in that there are better options Kirby can choose, I know about the spike it has but its dumb hard to hit, and plus i feel like the armor is too small to do anything, but I can see myself just being bad and not using it right lol.

 

[WispBae]

So I was playing in tourney with Charizard the other day and I wanted a secondary to practice with, as well as someone much more agile then Zard (even though he's pretty ****in' fast already...)

I was playing around with Kirby and I am in love. I was having trouble deciding wether to main Zard or Kirby. Then I found these copy abilities list...

Shoutouts to you Gohan, you've made more work for me. Now I really gotta practice Kirby AND Zard T_T

...but thanks, this list is very awesome and opens up a whole new meta few Kirby players actually take advantage of. I may end up switching to Kirby as my primary, I definitely slept on him, thinking he was still his slow Melee self. Huge mistake, I am in love<3

That being said, I wonder how many people would actually take a copy ability over the swallicide... Chu is good and all but so many people see Kirby now, all they think of is that swallicide and ledge game.

 

[Phan7om]

So I was playing in tourney with Charizard the other day and I wanted a secondary to practice with, as well as someone much more agile then Zard (even though he's pretty ****in' fast already...)

I was playing around with Kirby and I am in love. I was having trouble deciding wether to main Zard or Kirby. Then I found these copy abilities list...

Shoutouts to you Gohan, you've made more work for me. Now I really gotta practice Kirby AND Zard T_T

...but thanks, this list is very awesome and opens up a whole new meta few Kirby players actually take advantage of. I may end up switching to Kirby as my primary, I definitely slept on him, thinking he was still his slow Melee self. Huge mistake, I am in love<3

That being said, I wonder how many people would actually take a copy ability over the swallicide... Chu is good and all but so many people see Kirby now, all they think of is that swallicide and ledge game.

Copy is definitely underrated. The reason people dont use it over swallowcide is cuz a lot of Kirby's dont want to take the time to learn them. Swallowcide is definitely good, but once you know how to deal with them it is a lot worse... as of now it only works against people who dont know how to avoid it. Ive never seen Kirby's use this move, and it needs to be used more... it gives the opponent basically two matchups they have to learn. But also realize, inhale is very good... and it has a lot of other uses besides swallowcide, so always mix it up. I wrote a guide on that too.

And also, no problem, I love trying to help Kirby grow with underused tactics that Kirby has. With the large viablility of the cast, it is pretty important to learn copy imo since there are so many characters you can use. It really messes with people if you use it right.

 

[WispBae]

Copy is definitely underrated. The reason people dont use it over swallowcide is cuz a lot of Kirby's dont want to take the time to learn them. Swallowcide is definitely good, but once you know how to deal with them it is a lot worse... as of now it only works against people who dont know how to avoid it. Ive never seen Kirby's use this move, and it needs to be used more... it gives the opponent basically two matchups they have to learn. But also realize, inhale is very good... and it has a lot of other uses besides swallowcide, so always mix it up. I wrote a guide on that too.

And also, no problem, I love trying to help Kirby grow with underused tactics that Kirby has. With the large viablility of the cast, it is pretty important to learn copy imo since there are so many characters you can use. It really messes with people if you use it right.

I remember you gave me so pros and cons for the guide I'm working on (so much work...) , and I'm curious as to why so few use vertical cuttter to continue combos? Seems like if you hit, they would be pushed down and to the side, then you could follow woth a dash attack... If they tech, you could chase with a grab or smash. Then imagine having Wario's command grab at the end of a dash attack, man the possibilities go on and on...

 

[SpaceJell0]

I came here feeling intrigued at this tier list of copy abilities so I checked it out that is until I noticed the Falcon Punch was in
F Tier!! 0/10 tier list, would not apply to high level play and I agree with most placements but got confused at Bowser and Charizard's Copies, being a Charizard main I mostly use it for edgeguarding and spacing but can someone tell me the differences from Bowser's, I don't play him much and when I do I usually don't use his Neutral B much.

 

[Phan7om]

I came here feeling intrigued at this tier list of copy abilities so I checked it out that is until I noticed the Falcon Punch was in
F Tier!! 0/10 tier list, would not apply to high level play and I agree with most placements but got confused at Bowser and Charizard's Copies, being a Charizard main I mostly use it for edgeguarding and spacing but can someone tell me the differences from Bowser's, I don't play him much and when I do I usually don't use his Neutral B much.

Bowser's flame can come out quicker with quick flame, and stops his movement a little more because hes a bit bigger and slower. They are very similar tho.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Bowser's flame can come out quicker with quick flame, and stops his movement a little more because hes a bit bigger and slower. They are very similar tho.

Ok thanks for responding!

 

[himemiya]

I personally mk the best since the nado is like brawl's.

 

[SSS]

I don't have enough experience with a lot of these moves in relation to Kirby's moveset to say exactly where everybody should be on this list. I think Falco should be S; inhale really doesn't make that much of a difference in that matchup to be worth it, and if you know to use laser (like i do lol) then you should definitely use it.. DK should be B, so should Sheik (but that might just be me not liking needles. GW I'm not sure. . .Pit I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure our inhale is better than DDD's. It comes out faster and ends a lot faster (very important that iends faster). It might even be the least useful lol. Roy's and Marth's are freaking garbage. Fox's is better than that, definitely (although i could see it not being too useful in the matchup . . .idk). and i feel like ic's should be higher. I would put Roy and Marth at the bottom though.

@ Phan7om come to SoCal and ditto me. . .

 

[Phan7om]

I think Falco should be S; inhale really doesn't make that much of a difference in that matchup to be worth it, and if you know to use laser (like i do lol) then you should definitely use it..

Yeah I have conflicts with this, but I do know how to use this move very well, as I do all of them. For one, its a very good move, but there are other factors to take into considering Kirby aint Falco. Falco can actually jump out of reflection lag in PM, so if a Falco gets good at that, I'd say its even worse than A but idk. Its still a very good move for pressure and grabs and such so I know its good lol. But if you do inhale the phantasm, they are ****ed but true we can just smash/tilt it.

DK should be B, so should Sheik

Hmm, interesting, thanks for the input. I know we can combo DK into oblivion and with all of our combo potential, ending it with a Giant Punch isnt too hard but I see where you're coming from. As for Sheiks', I know its very good in that matchup in the sheik ditto and ours isnt that much different, only real difference is that we have multijumps and we can duck their grounded needles. I just see us having a better version of sheik's needles in that matchup but I can see what you mean that that doesnt make it A tier good.

I'm pretty sure our inhale is better than DDD's. It comes out faster and ends a lot faster (very important that iends faster). It might even be the least useful lol.

Yeah, I got Kirby's inhale ending B-tier but I probably should show that that's the case. I know its definitely better despite the range.

Roy's and Marth's are freaking garbage

True

Fox's is better than that, definitely (although i could see it not being too useful in the matchup . . .idk)

Hmm, as we shoot Fox, Fox can shoot us and he has up-smash. True we can SHTL but that extra 1-3% depending on distance (and I wouldn't be using it in the 2-3% range lol) Doesnt really mean much imo. Its a similar case with Falco but worse, and trust me im not just using Inhale for kirbycides and ****. Kirby's should most likely be gimping Fox so extra damage isnt really an issue. Its pretty fitiful but I could see it being better than where I have it.

i feel like ic's should be higher

This is weird to me cuz this might be one of the few I dont know how to use really at all since its 1 block. It really just sets up their desynch, or they sheild it. And since it melts you gotta be somewhere near grounded or above them to use it, both of those are bad situations. I know if they try to recover you can shoot it in hopes to desynch popo from nana to their doom but I feel its useless since Kirby can actually just go out there himself and aerial them, and plus its way easier. Inhale already desynchs them but at close range but idk.

come to SoCal and ditto me. . .

It'd have to be in 3.5 cuz I literally havent played it since they announced it from the fear of anything changing, except for like 15 minutes of basic movement here and there. So Im rusty and ****. Dont want to make any promises but I'll come down there eventually, soon maybe.

 

[SSS]

lots of stuff

yeah i'll really need to experiment with these more. and yeah, def come to SoCal. Best region tho?!

 

[skellitorman]

I agree with the DK and Shiek abilities being lowered.

As for Fox's lasers. If Fox tries to run away and shoot you when you have his power, then you actually do more damage to him for running away since Kirby's lasers don't scale at a range (they always do 2-3% as opposed to Fox's 0-1%) and Kirby gets more lasers during a short hop. This can deter Fox players from running away and just shooting you which is a strategy that is quite effective against Kirby. Also if Kirby's percent is too high then one of Fox's main KO combos (Up throw to up air) will no longer work. If Fox tries to reflect Kirby's lasers at such a range, the lasers will actually stop since Kirby's lasers have a significant range limitation.

The main downside to Fox's lasers is not actually the ability itself but using copy against Fox. It's quite ridiculous but Fox can actually punish Kirby for using copy against him. Obviously using lasers in a range where Fox can hit you can be risky.

As for the F tiers. I think that no ability should be in F tier aside from Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's. F tiers to me would be abilities that are so bad that they actually put you in a massive disadvantage for using them and are utterly useless. E tiers are moves that are just genuinely bad because they lack some significant property that would otherwise make them decent. Regardless E tier moves can still be used but generally speaking Kirby just has better options.

Its not implausible to see Kirby hitting with shield breaker or Roy's B in the same way that it is for Falcon Punch or Ganon's punch. Its just not worth using, generally speaking. The Ice Climbers' ability is actually usable too especially if its against a solo Popo. Jigglypuff's would be the only one that I can actually see being a third candidate for F tier. Although Jigglypuff's ability might be able to be used as a situational recovery option.

I still don't see why both of the Links' projectiles are in E tier. The arrows may not be as useful for the Links but they work pretty well with Kirby.

 

[Phan7om]

I agree with the DK and Shiek abilities being lowered.

As for Fox's lasers. If Fox tries to run away and shoot you when you have his power, then you actually do more damage to him for running away since Kirby's lasers don't scale at a range (they always do 2-3% as opposed to Fox's 0-1%) and Kirby gets more lasers during a short hop. This can deter Fox players from running away and just shooting you which is a strategy that is quite effective against Kirby. Also if Kirby's percent is too high then one of Fox's main KO combos (Up throw to up air) will no longer work. If Fox tries to reflect Kirby's lasers at such a range, the lasers will actually stop since Kirby's lasers have a significant range limitation.

The main downside to Fox's lasers is not actually the ability itself but using copy against Fox. It's quite ridiculous but Fox can actually punish Kirby for using copy against him. Obviously using lasers in a range where Fox can hit you can be risky.

As for the F tiers. I think that no ability should be in F tier aside from Captain Falcon's and Ganondorf's. F tiers to me would be abilities that are so bad that they actually put you in a massive disadvantage for using them and are utterly useless. E tiers are moves that are just genuinely bad because they lack some significant property that would otherwise make them decent. Regardless E tier moves can still be used but generally speaking Kirby just has better options.

Its not implausible to see Kirby hitting with shield breaker or Roy's B in the same way that it is for Falcon Punch or Ganon's punch. Its just not worth using, generally speaking. The Ice Climbers' ability is actually usable too especially if its against a solo Popo. Jigglypuff's would be the only one that I can actually see being a third candidate for F tier. Although Jigglypuff's ability might be able to be used as a situational recovery option.

I still don't see why both of the Links' projectiles are in E tier. The arrows may not be as useful for the Links but they work pretty well with Kirby.

Thanks for the input man

 

[SSS]

lots of stuff

that fox stuff is good to know (the lack of damage decay and the shorter distance, and the uthrow>uair)

has anyone tried rock to falcon punch? i doubt it works but someone could give it a try.

the thing with Roy's and Marth's is that the moves are just sooooo short that in that matchup it will rarely ever hit.

"Although Jigglypuff's ability might be able to be used as a situational recovery option." <--yep. can sweetspot the ledge with it if you have good aim (at least Puff's could in Melee, so i assume it transfers over; should test it before trying it in a set lol).

"I still don't see why both of the Links' projectiles are in E tier." The thing is is that our matchup with Link is terribad and if the Link is using boomerang and zair and upb properly then arrows will do nothing to help you get in because they go like no distance and they take too long to shoot.

 

[Phan7om]

has anyone tried rock to falcon punch? i doubt it works but someone could give it a try.

Yep, I try like almost everything possible with everybody. I can hit the computer, but it is not a true combo FP is too slow CF can attack/whatever before you hit him. Rock to Giant Punch, Solarbeam, and Charge Shot are true combos tho at certain %s tho and kills on certain stages.

yep. can sweetspot the ledge with it if you have good aim

You definitely can sweetspot but I mean... I dont really think thats what its worth getting it for since Kirby should be coming back regardless. And plus, on the off chance of you missing you either miss and die, or you get onstage and get rested. Even so, i factored in the recovery option part of it already, if it wasnt for that it'd be below or equal to Ganons imo.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I would have thought that Rob's copy ability would be in A-tier. You know, since it's an instantaneous beam...

For lucario's copy ability, I would have thought that a slower projectile would help better with controlling space, similar to lucario's aura bomb. Also, the fact that this can make recovering tricky for lucario, coupled with kirby's already excellent edge-guarding capabilities makes me believe that this ability deserves A-tier.

yeah i'll really need to experiment with these more. and yeah, def come to SoCal. Best region tho?!

Why must Norcal be worst than Socal? I wish Norcal could at least place similarly in tourneys to Socal, but this isn't the case.

 

[SSS]

Why must Norcal be worst than Socal? I wish Norcal could at least place similarly in tourneys to Socal, but this isn't the case.

Sorry buddy :'(

If I ever come up to San Fran I'll tell you.

 

[robosteven]

You guys probably already know this, but Kirby's Samus Charge Shot can't hold a charge by pressing shield. You HAVE to roll or charge it all the way to keep it.

 

[Phan7om]

You guys probably already know this, but Kirby's Samus Charge Shot can't hold a charge by pressing shield. You HAVE to roll or charge it all the way to keep it.

Yup it sucks, that and the ability to b-reverse it should be added in the next one tho.

 

[JetX818]

honestly best doubles partner would be ivysaur in many ways lol

 

[Phan7om]

Lets work together and make this thread perfect for 3.5!

 

[JipC]

Marth's always seemed useless because it has no range at all with Kirby. I'm guessing its still the same?

 

[Phan7om]

Marth's always seemed useless because it has no range at all with Kirby. I'm guessing its still the same?

Yeah basically all copy abilities work the same as they did in 3.02. They changed things like Fireball IASA and no dash canceled lasers with ZSS and such but basically on the whole they werent changed that much... so yeah Marth's is still pretty bad.

 

[B.W.]

I was playing today going against multiple computers to test copy abilities and here's a few things I found.
- Bowser's fire breath doesn't seem to decay (I could be wrong but I was able to hold it to Bowser was at 260% and it didn't seem to be shrinking).
- BowBow & Arrow (Link ability) doesn't charge as fast as Link's. I also don't think they have the same knock back angle.
- Bow & Fire Arrow (Toon Link ability) starts to drop sooner than T.Link's arrows. They also might charge slower, but I'll gslet back to you on that.
- Samus' Charge Shot can't be charged in the air.

Also I would consider moving Olimar from B to A on the ability tier list. Kirby's Pluck & Throw ability is incredibly effective against Olimar. Thanks to all Pikmin being actual projectiles it stops Olimar's own Side-B from getting through which forces an approach, but Olimar also has nothing that can deal with Kirby's Pikmin.

Olimar having to approach in the first place is bad, but thanks to all the angles and the speed at which the move can be spammed it absolutely destroys Olimar.

I'm telling you this as an Olimar player.

 

[Phan7om]

I was playing today going against multiple computers to test copy abilities and here's a few things I found.
- Bowser's fire breath doesn't seem to decay (I could be wrong but I was able to hold it to Bowser was at 260% and it didn't seem to be shrinking).
- BowBow & Arrow (Link ability) doesn't charge as fast as Link's. I also don't think they have the same knock back angle.
- Bow & Fire Arrow (Toon Link ability) starts to drop sooner than T.Link's arrows. They also might charge slower, but I'll gslet back to you on that.
- Samus' Charge Shot can't be charged in the air.

Also I would consider moving Olimar from B to A on the ability tier list. Kirby's Pluck & Throw ability is incredibly effective against Olimar. Thanks to all Pikmin being actual projectiles it stops Olimar's own Side-B from getting through which forces an approach, but Olimar also has nothing that can deal with Kirby's Pikmin.

Olimar having to approach in the first place is bad, but thanks to all the angles and the speed at which the move can be spammed it absolutely destroys Olimar.

I'm telling you this as an Olimar player.

Thanks for this stuff man, I knew Samus' acted like the Brawl version, and Bowser's ability does decay just the weakest range is still pretty far. I didnt know Olimar's was that good, then again I didnt know olimar that well.

 

[B.W.]

Lots of people don't. Last time I played against Kirby as Olimar they learned how good it was and there's really not a lot Olimar can do about it. It seems stupid and simple because Kirby is immobile, but it takes a lot of Olimar to get in if Kirby positions himself correctly.

I'm probably going to do a huge copy ability testing spree in the coming days since I'm picking this character up for 3.5.

It may be worth putting a Kirby vs Character difference section so as a reference for some moves because some copy abilities are exact copies, some are old PM versions, some Brawl versions and some are improvised due to limitations (Lucas/Mewtwo).

Also I forgot to mention that Fox's lasers don't go full screen. They're Brawl lasers. They might even do Brawl damage, but I'll get back to you on that too.

 

[Phan7om]

Yeah Fox's ability are definitely the Brawl lasers, damage and all. I still dont think its that good tho cuz once you get that ability Fox is gonna try to go in on you so you cant really use them. And he can shoot you when you shoot him. But when you do use them its devistating. I talked to Melee and PM Fox mains and they said you dont want to laser too much in the Fox ditto. I know its not the Fox ditto, but thats gotta still mean something.

 

[B.W.]

No they're still not good for that matchup, but I just didn't see where it said that anywhere under the Fox section.

The only time it's even useful is when the Fox wants to laser camp you all day every day and you can rack up more damage than he can because triple lasers.

But thanks to no stun and Fox being faster it's not that great.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Word of warning for Ivysaur since you forgot to mention this in the OP, Solarbeam ends in helpless. Learned that one the hard way.

Also for Jigglypuff, Rollout can also make a nice Rest punish. Probably better off with fsmash or hammer at higher percents though, but it's worth noting for when those won't kill yet.