Peach's Castle (64): Stage Research

[ParanoidDrone]

It's 9:30 at night and I've got nothing better to do.

Previously Covered
Miiverse
Suzaku Castle
Dream Land (64)
Final Destination & Ω Forms
PAC-LAND
75M
Skyworld
Flat Zone X
The Great Cave Offensive
Onett
Palutena's Temple
Yoshi's Island
Wily Castle
Gaur Plain
Pyrosphere
Temple
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Boxing Ring
Port Town Aero Dive
Bridge of Eldin
Pilotwings
Jungle Hijinxs
Wrecking Crew
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Big Battlefield
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Town & City
Duck Hunt
Delfino Plaza
Kalos Pokemon League
Mario Galaxy
Coliseum
Gamer
Wii Fit Studio
Kongo Jungle 64
Windy Hill Zone
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Orbital Gate Assault
Woolly World
Skyloft
Garden of Hope
Mushroom Kingdom U
Wuhu Island
Mario Circuit

Layout
Peach's Castle is a retro stage from the original Super Smash Bros. for the Nintendo 64. As such, its layout should be familiar to some players. A rickety-looking wooden bridge rests over a smaller, solid base with grabbable ledges.

Embedded inside this solid base is a long platform. Overhead are two metal wedges and a small bumper. All 3 of these stage elements move. The moving platform has grabbable ledges and can be jumped through from below.

Players 1 and 2 start on the bridge, while Players 3 and 4 start on the smaller base. The Omega form floats over a void.

Peach's Castle (64) has no unexpected hazards other than the moving elements already mentioned.

Perpetual Motion
Let's start from the top and work our way down. The bumper starts in the center of the stage and immediately starts moving as the announcer counts down. It first moves left, then right, then back to the center where it stays put for a while before repeating the cycle. Players that touch the bumper take 1% damage and horizontal knockback. The knockback scales with damage, although it will not kill outright even at 300%. Only players can trigger the bumper's hitbox, although non-player entities such as Luma can still get hit if they are in close proximity at the moment of impact.

In the upper corners of the stage are two metal wedges, with the sloped side facing up and towards the middle. The slopes are too steep to stand on, although the entire structure is solid and lets players tech on impact. They move up and out along a straight line before moving back in again. Their location relative to the bumper means there are better than even odds of impact when getting knocked away by the bumper. If a player hit by the bumper misses their tech against the slope, they get bounced nearly straight up.

The moving platform at the bottom is solid from above but can be jumped through from below. It moves back and forth and pauses briefly at the edges of its movement. It emits a small grinding sound whenever it starts and stops moving.

Each of these three elements move independently of the other two, with no apparent synchronization between them.

The bumper, wedges, and long platform at the bottom all move.

Summary

• Lower half of stage has grabbable ledges.
• Bumper does 1% damage, horizontal knockback.
• Bumper moves left and right, pauses in center after each cycle.
• Wedges move diagonally up and out then back in, provide techable surfaces.
• Moving platform pauses at edges of movement.

 

[webbedspace]

Are the wedges placed in such a way that they're most likely to deflect f-smash KOs from the centre of the bottom platform? What about the edges of the top platform?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Are the wedges placed in such a way that they're most likely to deflect f-smash KOs from the centre of the bottom platform? What about the edges of the top platform?

Given the wide variety of trajectories from various attacks, I haven't tried to assess that.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I think it might be worth noting in my time testing this stage that even if you hit the top of the bumper, it will send you diagonally downward either left or right, pretty sure it's determined by the side you hit it. If you hit the underside of it perfectly in the middle, it seems to randomly hurl you either left or right. Can you verify this if possible?

 

[Blackrider213]

It's nice to see that both the moving platform and the lower half of the main stage have grabbable ledges. This wasn't present back in the 64 days, which really screwed with recovery.

 

[Blumiere]

I was testing this stage with Christmas Pit and noticed that if he's standing at the edge of the left side of that broken bridge and gets FSmashed by Duck Hunt, he'll get smacked into the bottom of that left triangular piece.

I imagine this holds true for other target characters, possibly other characters initiating the smash. Was this a thing in 64?

 

[Xeze]

This stage seems fun. Memories from Smash 64 come back!

The bumper and those side walls can prevent this to be counterpick material though. More testing is needed. Also knockback from the bumper varies depending on wether you hit it by yourself or when knocked by an enemy attack.

 

[Geno9999]

Some numbers from Training Mode, Mario v. Mario, CPU Mario set to control, all smashes fully charged. Side Smash is angled upwards as well, mostly to avoid the floating platforms on the sides:
Center of Top Platform: Fireball ~ 62%, Arm ~ 78%
Edge of Bottom Platform: Fireball ~ 54%, Arm ~ 69%
Edge of Moving Platform (Sodium Chloride Warning: hard to time the smash to when the moving platform is fully extended): Fireball ~ 33%, Arm ~ 45%
The side blast zones are the same distance apart from the actual stage, meaning the stage itself is in the horizontal center of the full arena. I tried to get some side smashes from the very edge of the top platform, but it seems that Mario's side and down smashes sends people at a high enough angle for them to hit against the bottom of the floating slanted platforms.

Up smashes: Top platform ranges from 68% (left edge) to 71% (right edge), the platform averages out around 70%.
Bottom Stationary: 79%
Moving Platform: 84%

Battlefield for Comparison:
Side Smash Edge: Fireball ~ 37%, Arm~ 51%
Side Center: Fireball ~ 55%, Arm~ 70%
Topmost Up Smash: 67%
Middle two Fall-throughs: 74%
Bottom: 81%

Overall, Peach's Castle actually has a higher and wider blast zones than Battlefield, though it won't feel like it does when the majority of the fight is taking place on the top platform, making this stage good for characters with strong vertical KO moves... provided that they keep the Bumper in mind, since that will save a player from an otherwise lethal KO.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I'm only worried about the wedges. Maybe this is counter pick material...

Time will tell, until then I'm putting it as a cp to test it.

Anyone know how short the ceiling is compared to halberd?

Snip.

That is actually good news to me. Thanks for your testing. I can see skilled players easily avoid fighting up top vs good vertical killers.

 

[9Tales]

I got a report form a friend that while playing on this stage a Luigi up smash (that in his words "wouldn't have killed") knocked Captain Falcon into the bumper which then knocked him (more or less) straight up into the blast zone.

Reading here it seems the bumper's knock back is typically horizontal with a small upward angle (or small downward when hit from above.) I'm planning to test the bumper a lot myself later this evening, but has anyone else testing this stage experienced this kind of killing knock back from the bumper not aimed at the wedges? Or would anyone have an idea or guess as to what could have caused this besides a "bug in the physics"?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I got a report form a friend that while playing on this stage a Luigi up smash (that in his words "wouldn't have killed") knocked Captain Falcon into the bumper which then knocked him (more or less) straight up into the blast zone.

Reading here it seems the bumper's knock back is typically horizontal with a small upward angle (or small downward when hit from above.) I'm planning to test the bumper a lot myself later this evening, but has anyone else testing this stage experienced this kind of killing knock back from the bumper not aimed at the wedges? Or would anyone have an idea or guess as to what could have caused this besides a "bug in the physics"?

I think (not certain) that if someone gets hit by two things in quick succession, then their knockback sums together in a way that doesn't happen if the hits are spaced farther apart. If this is true, then it's possible the bumper could add that little extra oomph. </spitballing>

 

[Tito Maas]

So I played on this stage competitively for the first time today. That bumper is a lot more intrusive than I anticipated. A lot of teching opportunities on the floaty slanted platforms. Hard to see this stage being legal. Need to see some SSB64 video and see if it's the same in that game.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Uh oh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaeipZ8Fmeg

 

[Tito Maas]

Why was this stage legal in SSB64?

 

[Geno9999]

Why was this stage legal in SSB64?

According to the Smash Wiki, that depends on if it's an American Tournament v. an Japanese Tournment. The main difference between the two is that the Japanese tournament only allows Dreamland, while American rulesets allows Kongo Jungle and Peach's Castle as counterpicks, since the game only has 9 stages, so you'd be hard pressed to find any other stage that's reasonably balanced.

Uh oh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaeipZ8Fmeg

Uh oh is right. Any idea on what triggered it though? I think it might have to do with Greninja's wall stick. Has anyone tried it with Shiek or something?

 

[Starbound]

Something to add about the top platforms: they can be wall jumped on (and presumably wall clung to as well).

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

Uh oh is right. Any idea on what triggered it though? I think it might have to do with Greninja's wall stick. Has anyone tried it with Shiek or something?

I tried it with Sheik and I can't get it to work. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. The only thing I'll say is that Sheik can Bouncing Fish off the wedges, so Sheik mains could heavily incorporate that into their game. Or it might just get in the way of landing Bouncing Fish. Who knows...

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Uh oh is right. Any idea on what triggered it though? I think it might have to do with Greninja's wall stick. Has anyone tried it with Shiek or something?

I'm also assuming it was the wall cling interacting with the movement of the block or something. It's not my video, and I don't have the means to do any testing unfortunately (no WiiU). I can only see this being a reason to ban the stage if it actually comes up. If people are having trouble reproducing it, then maybe it's just super rare. Or maybe it only works on Greninja, not sure.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

This stage is lots of fun if you fight on the bottom platform. Not so much on the top one.

 

[Razputin13]

Uh oh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaeipZ8Fmeg

The person who posted that said that it only happened for as long as he held right. As soon as he dropped the wall cling, he fell out normally. It's not like he was trapped there, and it seems to be very difficult to do intentionally, so it will have no effect on regular play.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

The person who posted that said that it only happened for as long as he held right. As soon as he dropped the wall cling, he fell out normally. It's not like he was trapped there, and it seems to be very difficult to do intentionally, so it will have no effect on regular play.

I'm not 100% sure I buy that it won't exist in standard play. I mean, if it happened unintentionally within one day of the stage being released, how hard must it be to do intentionally?

Not saying that this is the one reason to ban the stage or anything, just that this glitch will likely be seen in tournament if the stage is legal. How big of a deal is that? I'm really not sure.

 

[Razputin13]

Well, it'd be treated like any other wall cling situation I assume. The other player can choose to attack, or wait for them to drop it.

Besides, when half the people who own the game are playing on two stages, it's not surprising that some rare jank would come to light on at least one of them. It's a good idea to discuss whether the wedges make this stage ban-worthy, but this glitch shouldn't be part of that discussion. That happened with Wuhu's super rare, insta-kill effect, and was probably a big reason we didn't, and still don't, use that stage competitively. And that's stupid, since it's an amazing stage and the glitch was patched out.

This glitch doesn't cause any harm, and is more amusing than anything. Let's not muddy the waters.

 

[Ferntendo]

So taking all into account of this stage... could you guys see this stage as a counterpick or banned?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So taking all into account of this stage... could you guys see this stage as a counterpick or banned?

It's pretty much impossible to decide yet, we need more footage of actual tourneys taking place on that stage.

 

[Ferntendo]

It's pretty much impossible to decide yet, we need more footage of actual tourneys taking place on that stage.

How about your personal preference? I just like to hear opinions from others. I say if that glitch shown in earlier comments can be avoided or can be patched it could be a counterpick imo. but like you said it's impossible to be determined now.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

How about your personal preference? I just like to hear opinions from others. I say if that glitch shown in earlier comments can be avoided or can be patched it could be a counterpick imo. but like you said it's impossible to be determined now.

Since I've tested it quite a bit so far, my tendency is to ban it. Matches take longer compared to other stages.
But you have to take into account that nobody knows how to properly play on this stage. Stage knowledge can go both ways here, and we have to further test it to see in which.

 

[Tito Maas]

So

How about your personal preference? I just like to hear opinions from others. I say if that glitch shown in earlier comments can be avoided or can be patched it could be a counterpick imo. but like you said it's impossible to be determined now.

I would very much like for it to be a counter pick. However when I play on the stage the bumper is pretty intrusive, which makes me think it will be banned. There are definitely shenanigans that occur on that stage but you definitely have to have more controlled movement, which could make this a counterpick against aggressive players.

 

[Geno9999]

How about your personal preference? I just like to hear opinions from others. I say if that glitch shown in earlier comments can be avoided or can be patched it could be a counterpick imo. but like you said it's impossible to be determined now.

Reading about it in the reddit, I think the glitch won't have too much impact, and since it's limited to at least one character (no has any confirmation with Sheik?), it's fairly easy to avoid.

Disclaimer: I have very little actual tournament experience, so all of this is just stuff I've gathered from fighting random lvl 9s over and over.
The Bumper I haven't had any vertical KOs denied, but I have dropped a few combos due to unfamiliarity with the general direction of the knockback.
Everyone mentions that the Wedges only in that it could be teched to save a life, but almost none have mentioned what happens if you FAIL to tech, especially the bottom portion of it. It can make an otherwise recoverable side smash into a lethal move, since very few characters have the recovery to get out of the bottom corners (The Pits and the Puffballs mostly.) It's a two-edged sword is what I'm saying: those familiar with the timing of teching can extend their stocks a bit (though they're still in a bad offstage position that could leave them open for another attack,) while those who can't tech consistently will have lots of trouble with this stage when they're basically getting rebound dunked by the wedges.

Overall, Counterpick, but needs more testing from those more suited than I am.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ran it at BPC's House O' Pain this weekend. First impressions are decidedly positive. This stage is fine. Really obnoxiously good counterpick for Villager, but that's why we have stage bans. There's really nothing problematic or banworthy going on here whatsoever. And as people learn to adapt to where the outer platforms are and where the bumper is, it'll becom-

...Sorry, can't say that with a straight face. Who am I kidding, nobody is going to learn how this stage works, because they're just going to say "DON'T CARE" and ban it along with anything else that reminds them that the stage is actually an important part of Super Smash Bros. Shoutouts to Socal for being completely ****.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Ran it at BPC's House O' Pain this weekend. First impressions are decidedly positive. This stage is fine. Really obnoxiously good counterpick for Villager, but that's why we have stage bans. There's really nothing problematic or banworthy going on here whatsoever. And as people learn to adapt to where the outer platforms are and where the bumper is, it'll becom-

...Sorry, can't say that with a straight face. Who am I kidding, nobody is going to learn how this stage works, because they're just going to say "DON'T CARE" and ban it along with anything else that reminds them that the stage is actually an important part of Super Smash Bros. Shoutouts to Socal for being completely ****.

Stage knowledge will massively improve as soon as people start hitting their skill cap.
That's when people will start learning stages to specifically counterpick them.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Stage knowledge will massively improve as soon as people start hitting their skill cap.
That's when people will start learning stages to specifically counterpick them.

And by then, we'll be down to 5 legal stages and it will barely matter at all.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

And by then, we'll be down to 5 legal stages and it will barely matter at all.

Stop being right
It's depressing

 

[Geno9999]

And by then, we'll be down to 5 legal stages and it will barely matter at all.

Hopefully we can get some centralized leadership in the community as a whole, a lot of players are listening to what Zero says, a lot of people only paying attention to reddit; we really need to have a backroom or something to take a step back, look at the game as a whole and try to judge the stages without too much bias.

 

[Tito Maas]

Who are the people who make stage legality a thing?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Who are the people who make stage legality a thing?

Individual TOs.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

This stage should be looked into again. Recently TOs have started banning Delfino, Halberd, and Castle Siege from their tournaments. Peach's Castle, to me, seemed more competitively viable than those stages ever were. Can we pinpoint what exactly makes this stage bad for competitive play?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

This stage should be looked into again. Recently TOs have started banning Delfino, Halberd, and Castle Siege from their tournaments. Peach's Castle, to me, seemed more competitively viable than those stages ever were. Can we pinpoint what exactly makes this stage bad for competitive play?

I ran her for a while on our local and this stage is pure cheese if you commit to it.
This is basically positional advantages: the stage. Approaching on this stage is way harder than on most other stages.