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Palutena's edge guarding

JosePollo

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Ledge trumping and get-up reads aside, what are some specific things Palutena can do to ledge guard against specific characters? Here's some of my ideas:

-Mario/Dr. Mario: Auto-reticle works well for off-stage pressure as it forces Mario to commit to a high or low recovery option early and getting hit usually spells doom, especially for the doc. Mario trying to recover high is what you want, because his up B has too much priority to try to challenge and it ledge snaps from a pretty long distance.

-Luigi: Auto-reticle if he tries to Missle to get closer to the stage. A single hit of Auto-reticle will slam the missle to a halt and force the Luigi player to spend his second jump. If they try to use a jumping Luigi tornado to rise, you can wait out the hitboxes and go for a dair or Rocket Jump (if you're into that) during the end lag of the move. Luigi's up B doesn't ledge snap for about the first 4 - 6 frames (not sure exactly the number), meaning you can punish a misspaced up B as it reaches its apex over the ledge. It requires a bit of timing if you try punish with a smash attack, so dair or Rocket Jump are good options.

-Peach: Auto-reticle clips her float. Like Mario, though, her up B is better left alone. If the Peach player is foolish enough to try to float over the stage, up smash or up air are easy, easy punishes as Peach's only safe option is to air dodge.

-Bowser: Dair if Bowser starts his up B to low or doesn't mash properly. Up smash if Bowser tries to side b to the ledge as Dash Claw doesn't ledge snap, just mind the transcendent hitbox.

-Rosalina: Drop-down nair to catch her as she ascends if she recovers low. The finisher can get net you a stage spike if you keep Rosalina towards the stage (little nair tidbit: because of its multi-hit properties nair is easily DI-able, so in order to choose which direction you want to launch your opponent you have to be moving in the opposite direction of where you want the finisher to launch--meaning if you want to launch to the right, you have to be moving left as the finisher hits, and vice versa). Up smash if she tries to recover high.

-Wario: Up smash or bair if Wario tries to bike over the ledge. Up smash has more killing power, but you should go for the bair if up smash won't kill so you can avoid staling it.

-DK: Dair/RJ if they're not running Kong Cyclone. Otherwise, just don't.

-Diddy Kong: Up smash if they try to Monkey Flip onto the stage OR the ledge, as Monkey Flip doesn't properly ledge snap. Auto-reticle can also pressure Monkey Flip. Nair and dair both clank with the Rocketbarrels. Bair beats them due to invincibility, and Rocket Jump wins on disjoint.

-Link/Toon Link: Always keep in mind that tethering to the ledge doesn't grant invincibility until they reel themselves in, so take advantage of that. You can try for a drop-down Counter, but it's not very reliable and you might accidentally end up gimping yourself with all the end lag that Counter has.

-Zelda: She's got two options. If she's under the x-axis, she'll go for the ledge snap. She won't have any active hitboxes during the ledge snap, so it's safe to go for the snap back or a trump. If she's over the x-axis, she'll teleport onto the stage. If that's the case, you can easily punish the end lag of the move (the more reliable alternative), or go for the Counter on her re-spawn (a little tricky, and misspacing it could mean a eating a heavy punish, but the reward is possibly netting a kill due to the high launching prowess of Farore's Wind). If you're playing on a stage with platforms, keep in mind that Zelda can also ledge cancel, so try not to blindly rush in for the punish.

-Sheik: Like with Zelda, you can attack the snap back of her up B. If she tries to Bouncing Fish onto the stage Counter or up smash are your best friends. Up air also works, but it requires a little more timing and more precise spacing. Sheiks also like to ledge drop Bouncing Fish, so be ready to punish it with up smash.

-Ganondorf: Dair beats his up b on disjoint. Up smash hits side b's lack of ledge snap. Honestly, Ganondorf is laughably easy for Palutena to edgeguard, just mind you don't get grabbed by an off-stage Flame Choke. Counter can net you a kill if Ganondorf is running Dark Fists.

-Samus: Another tether. You can use bair to challenge her slow Screw Attack as she tries to ledge snap. She's got some of the worst options off the ledge in the game, so edge guarding shouldn't be much of a problem.

-Zero Suit Samus: Tether. Like with Shiek, you can use up smash to counter her Flip Jump, be it off the ledge or from a tether drop. Her up b has a strange amount of priority, so dair isn't a very good option, but it's fairly slow, so bair is a great option.

-Pit/Dark Pit: Their Power of Flight has no offensive capabilities, so you can challenge it off-stage with any move you want. Particularly effective is a drop-down nair if Pit tires to recover vertically. Counter is a good idea if you see Pit pull out his side b. He gets super armor from his side b, so don't try to challenge it with up smash or you'll be the one getting punished instead.

-Palutena: Same deal with Zelda if Palutena is using warp: trump or attack the snap back if she recovers low, punish the end lag if she recovers high. Up smash if she tries to Jump Glide over the ledge. You can also catch her out of Super Speed with up air if she tries to fly in from afar. Keep in mind that Palutena can fly under stages to the opposite side using Super Speed, so try to keep your options open. Be ready to react if you see her going for the Super Speed jump to nair/up air offensive recovery. Counter doesn't work against it, since she flies past too fast for it to hit. Your best bet is to just shield and punish her landing lag (keep in mind she'll continue to slide through the landing lag because of Super Speed's momentum) or go for a well-timed up smash.

-Marth/Lucina: Dolphin/Crescent Slash both sweep the ledge before ledge snapping, so you can use Counter or dash attack to bounce them back out into the air.

-Ike: His sword MUST fly over the x-axis in order for him to grab the ledge, so Counter is always a guaranteed option. Up smash to punish a side b attempt. All in all, another simple character to edge guard.

-Robin: Dair. A lot of Robins will try to deter an edge guard by attacking the ledge with an Arcfire, so use Reflect to counter that option. Robin's got an amazing up air as well, so he/she might try to shark with it.

-Kirby: His Final Cutter does not ledge snap until after it reaches its apex. It's got a pretty good ledge snap range, but it's easy to punish if mis-spaced. Kirby's best recovery option against Palutena is to recover high since he has 5 jumps and can just spam air dodge until he reaches the ground, but you can apply some pressure by using Auto-reticle.

-DeDeDe: Drop-down nair is pretty effective. Dair and Rocket Jump both get the job done. Like with Kirby, his multiple jumps mean he has an easier time recovering high, so try to apply pressure with Auto-reticle. If he tries to throw out a gordo, Auto-reticle can reflect them right back as they're coming out, resulting in him getting hit by his own projectile. Nair is one of DeDeDe's best landing tools, so apply pressure with up airs, nairs, or bairs of your own.

-Meta Knight: Like with the other Kirby series reps, Meta Knight wants to recover high against Palutena with his multiple jumps, so Auto-reticle and up smash work reasonably well, but up smash is a slightly riskier commitment due to Meta Knight's ability to fall quickly to the ground. If Meta Knight tries to up b to the ledge, Counter works well to edge guard as the first upward slash always sweeps the ledge before he ledge snaps. Should Meta Knight try to side b towards the stage, Counter and up smash, particularly up smash, get the job done. The only move to watch out for is his down b, as he can get a surprise hit on you if you commit to an edge guard too soon. Luckily you have plenty of time to react to the move, so you can Counter on reaction. If not, then just shield the move. It's got a lot of end lag, so you can easily punish it with almost anything before Meta Knight can act again.

-Little Mac: Easy peasy. If you back throw him, you'll be facing the direction you threw him. A smart Little Mac will save his second jump, but most Little Macs will immediately spend it to get closer for a side b, so immediately Auto-reticle to clip him out of it. Jolt Haymaker and Rising Uppercut both have hitboxes out before they ledge snap, so Counter can make it impossible for him to get back. Jolt Haymaker, in particular, doesn't ledge snap until the hitbox disappears, so you can just space an up smash around it to punish or get a kill. If he survives he'll end up above you, and that's a good thing against any character when you're Palutena. You can also just go out there and fair him. This edge guard shouldn't be difficult at all.

-Fox/Falco: Up smash for every side b attempt, as the hitbox extends under the lip of the stage and will dig them right out of their ledge snap attempt. If they're recovering vertically, dair/RJ. If they try to climb the slanted sides of stages, bair can stage spike them. Their best bet is to try to recover diagonally, as Palutena's low horizontal mobility in the air won't allow her to reach them in time to get an aerial out (though that can be remedied with Super Speed (risky) or Lightweight). If they try to recover diagonally, you can stand on the edge and Auto-reticle to clip them and force them further down towards the blast zone. This will usually be enough for a Falco not using Distant Firebird, but Fox might still be able to reach the stage.

-Pikachu: You can catch Pikachu with an up smash if he tries to side b to the stage, but other than that Pikachu's recovery is too good to edge guard. I'm not sure, but I think you can also up smash if he tries to up b over the stage, although Quick Attack is so fast that it requires quite a bit of timing and missing will most likely get you punished, since Pikachu's up b has almost no lag when it ends on the ground.

-Charizard: Up smash for a side b attempt over the stage is your best bet since Charizard's lack of height on his jumps and up b means he has a hard time recovering low. If he does it close enough to the ground, you can jump and Counter for an early kill, too. Recovering low is his best method, since Fly's priority prevents him from getting dair'd, though I think Rocket Jump can still beat it out on disjoint. Auto-reticle works well to clip his jumps.

-Lucario: This one's a bit tricky, since his recovery becomes pretty ridiculous as his percentage rises. He's got a pretty good ledge snap on his up b and it travels pretty fast, so going for a drop-down aerial isn't really a good option because it'll put you in a very vulnerable position if you miss. At higher percentages, Auto-reticle won't activate if Lucario starts his up b from too far away. What I like to do in this scenario is bluff a ledge trump or a drop-down aerial to try to force the Lucario player to recover over the stage. If they take the bait, it's really easy to punish the massive landing lag on his recovery. Up smash also works well in this scenario because, should you miss, the end lag on Lucario's Extreme Speed will prevent him from getting a punish. Quick edit: It's hard to control Lucario's Extreme Speed at higher percentages, so a lot of players, I've noticed, will try to land ON the stage rather than risk bumping against the underside of the stage and dying, so up smash becomes that much more useful in this edge guarding situation.

-Jigglypuff: Another character that wants to recover high, so harras her with Auto-reticle. If the player's not aware, up smash can get an early kill on her, even with the weaker upper hitbox of the attack. You can also kill her faily easily by baiting out an air dodge when she's above you and up airing. A lot of Jigglypuff players will throw out aerials as they approach the stage, so make good use of bair in these situations. Jigglypuff's up air comes out pretty slow, so it's not too hard to land a dair if she's recovering from under the stage.

-Greninja: His up b doesn't have any active hitboxes, so drop-down aerials work well if he tries to recover vertically. Greninjas like to use off-stage Shadow Sneak a lot to get close to the ledge, but it's got no priority, so you can up smash on reaction if you see them going for it. There's no floor, so you can't see the shadow, but it's a pretty good bet he's going for it, especially if they're launched pretty far from the stage since Greninja has very poor horizontal movement in the air. His up b is multi-directional, so if they're at the 7 or 8 o'clock position edge guarding kind of turns into a 50-50 because they can go side, then up for the ledge snap, or up, then side if they see you going for the low option. If you predict them recovering high, up smash.

-Duck Hunt: He's got one of the worst recoveries in the game, so bair should work just fine as he'll most likely try to ride the slant of the stage. If he starts it too low, dair is an easy punish. He can use his exploding can to try to deter an edge guard, though, so watch out for that.

-R.O.B.: Another fairly tricky edge guard, since his up b lets him vascillate between choosing a high or low option. He's better off recovering low, though, since he can't air dodge out of his up b. He can throw out aerials, THEN air dodge, but with good timing you can catch him with an up air before he can air dodge if he goes high. R.O.B. will try to get you off the ledge by throwing out gyros and lasers, but all you have to do is shield them. If he spends too much time trying to recover, he'll run out of fuel, so keep him guessing and don't over-commit. A good dair will make quick work of him if he tries to recover particularly low, just watch out for his up air.

-Ness: Always respect his PK Thunder 2. You can Auto-reticle to clip his 2nd jump if he's not smart about using it. If he tries to recover diagonally (like Fox or Falco) Auto-reticle can, either, hit him (which works) or hit the PK Thunder itself (the best result) and send him spiraling to his doom. Remember to be aware of Ness ability to wall bounce so you don't accidentally commit to an edge guard before he's actually going for the ledge, although this only really applies to stages with vertical walls for sides (which are mostly omega forms, although it's possible to do on Dream Land 64). Despite what I said at the start of the paragraph, one of the easiest ways to gimp Ness is to simply jump into the path of his PKT2, as doing so will halve the distance he flies, potentially preventing him from reaching the ledge. If you're up a stock or feel confident in your ability to tech a probable stage spike, this isn't a bad idea for a ledge guard at all.

-Captain Falcon: Dair/nair for up b, up smash for side b (which they rarely do, but it's a possible mix-up option, so be aware of it). Nothing too complicated.

-Villager: If the player is dumb enough, Reflect can send them to their doom if they try to ride their side b onto the stage. Outside of that, forget about trying to edge guard Villager, especially if it's using Extreme Balloon Trip. If a Villager tries to edge camp, Explosive Flame works well to punish the lack of invincibility. Not much you can do outside of that. Villager's a character you want to just outright kill on the stage.

-Olimar: He's got great, but easily exploitable recovery since it has no hitboxes and a rather slow, predictable trajectory. Drop-down nair, dair/RJ, and bair stage spikes work really well if he tries to recover vertically. Like Fox, he Olimar should be trying to recover at a more diagonal angle, but, like Fox, Auto-reticle can force him to recover more vertically than he wants to. And he should never be recovering high. He can attack out of his up b, but nothing he has can save him from eating an up air/up smash. The only thing to watch out for when Olimar is off-stage is getting hit by a purple Pikmin as he chucks them in an attempt to deter an off-stage chase. If you're running Reflect--which you should be if you're fighting Olimar--you can try to reflect the Pikmin back at him to push him farther back from the ledge, but you risk missing so it's usually better to just dodge them (spot dodge, roll, jump, whatever).

-Wii Fit Trainer: They have some rather good recovery as they can stall with Deep Breathing and Header, with Header actually allowing them to inch closer to the stage while maintaining an offensive presence. Just shield or reflect their volley balls. If they try to use Header too close to the stage you can time a good punish during the end lag of the move. Super Hoop itself has a surprising amount of range and priority so I don't recommend going for a bair, but the only cover the sides of Wii Fit's body. Their head is exposed during the move, so going for a spike is usually the better alternative.

-Shulk: His Jump art gives him more options on how he'll try to recover, so be ready to react accordingly. His best option is to jump over the ledge with an air dodge spaced well-enough to avoid landing, but that requires him to be within a certain distance from the stage. If a Shulk is good enough to accomplish this you should be wary of just going in to try to punish because he might see it coming and counter. If he's using Power Vision chances are you're dead if you attack, so really watch out. Much like Kirby, his Air Slash won't snap to the ledge until after it reaches it's apex, so Counter will send him flying right back out. If you're not running Counter, you can opt for a power shield into Celestial Fireworks into aerial (a little unorthodox, since you're running Celestial Fireworks at all), or power shield into grab or jab. The latter two require some rather bad spacing from your opponent (recovery-wise) but a lot of Shulks will try to surprise Air Slash someone waiting for them at the ledge, so it's actually a fairly common occurrence. A cute little thing I personally like to do is power shield into jab into dair. After around 70%, jab will pop them up and put them into enough hitstun for dair to hit without having to go under beneath the ledge of the stage and risk getting stuck in dair's long endlag. Basically, though, if you shield a surprise Air Slash attempt you have free rein to choose your punish option because of how long Shulk stalls in the air before falling. Just remember, though, that Air Slash has two hits.

-Pac-Man: All of Pac-Man's specials can be used to mix up his recover off-stage, so edge guarding can get fairly tricky against him. He can stall by charging his projectiles or throw down a hydrant to gain a bit of height before performing another action. He can recover horizontally and with super armor by using his side b. And he can recover from the depths of the abyss with a triple trampoline jump. He also has access to a wall jump on stages with walls. I personally don't have a lot of experience fighting against Pac-Man, and I don't play him much, either, but from what I can gather his best recovery option is a simple ledge snap off of an up b. It's got active hitboxes at it rises, so it's a dangerous move to challenge--especially that 50-degree angle on the weaker late hitbox--but you can attack it with a RJ or seek to trade with a dair. Just be ready to tech if you're on a stage with slanted edges (which is basically every legal stage, save Dream Land (somewhat) and flat-walled Omegas). Reflect can net you a kill if he chucks a key at you from off-stage, though the rebound may miss if he throws it from far enough away. Power Pellet's super armor means you can't challenge it if he's recovering horizontally, but it has a ton of endlag on and off-stage. Punish him hard if he opts to get back onto the stage like this.
 
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Silxer

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These are some pretty helpful tips (I didn't read everything but I will go back to this later on), thanks for taking the time to make this.
 

JosePollo

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These are some pretty helpful tips (I didn't read everything but I will go back to this later on), thanks for taking the time to make this.
Been meaning to finish this, but I'm in the process of moving, so I can only post from my phone, and mobile posting is clunky as hell.
 

Silxer

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Been meaning to finish this, but I'm in the process of moving, so I can only post from my phone, and mobile posting is clunky as hell.
I feel you, I don't even bother posting with my phone for similar reason so I can wait. lol
 

JosePollo

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Added Olimar, Wii Fit, Shulk and Pac Man.

Not even done unpacking everything and internet + computer were the first things I set up lol. Anyway, feel free to comment on anything of what I've said. If you have ideas of your own, don't be afraid to contribute. Don't hesitate to point out any mistakes or wrong information, either.
 
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TLTC

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Nair can trade with Mario, Dr Mario, Roy, Peach, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Diddy Side B, and Little Mac causing a potential gimp situation as the first hitbox sends them straight down. If they recovered low enough they wont be able to get back to the edge.

Might work with other characters as well but these are the ones I have the most success against.
 

JosePollo

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and then if they grab the ledge, space/time explosive flame to cover all options
If only it was that good. As it is right now, the hitbox at full size isn't big enough to cover jump when used on the ground, and it can't cover regular get-up and roll simultaneously.

I haven't tried it, but I think you can hit an enemy before the ledge snap if you time it to where the hitbox is at max size when they get to the ledge. Kind of like how the 3rd hit of Lucas' down smash hits characters before they snap to the ledge.
 

JayWon

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If only it was that good. As it is right now, the hitbox at full size isn't big enough to cover jump when used on the ground, and it can't cover regular get-up and roll simultaneously.

I haven't tried it, but I think you can hit an enemy before the ledge snap if you time it to where the hitbox is at max size when they get to the ledge. Kind of like how the 3rd hit of Lucas' down smash hits characters before they snap to the ledge.

Don't just throw it out. Be patient. Space well. It creates very stressful pressure and can cover all options with good timing and decision making. You're reaction time will be at the advantage. If they roll in they'll be right in front of you for a free grab but obviously you don't want to be in the explosive flame animation when he does.
 

JosePollo

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Don't just throw it out. Be patient. Space well. It creates very stressful pressure and can cover all options with good timing and decision making. You're reaction time will be at the advantage. If they roll in they'll be right in front of you for a free grab but obviously you don't want to be in the explosive flame animation when he does.
Even so, I still think you have better options for a punish than Explosive Flame. It's OK at higher percentages, I guess, since it CAN act as a kill move, but at lower percentages you'd be better off going for something less commital and that does more than 7% damage.

But we're talking about way to PREVENT the opponent from reaching the ledge in the first place, and in that regard Explosive Flame is a very weak option since it has set distance, long start-up (making it easy to avoid on reaction) and long end lag. If you manage to catch an opponent with it off-stage at high percentage for the kill I guess it's nice, but in general it's a fairly high risk low, low reward situation you're putting yourself into. It's best application in terms of edge guarding is against a ledge-camping Villager, but it's pretty much outclassed by Auto-reticle, otherwise.
 
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JayWon

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Oh yeah mah badz! explosive flame is not good for edge guarding, it's good for covering ledge options.
 

JosePollo

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Oh yeah mah badz! explosive flame is not good for edge guarding, it's good for covering ledge options.
Don't worry about it. It's good to get ANY sort of discussion going around here. But anyway, I went back to see if you could catch people with Explosive Flame before the could ledge snap and it's a loud and resounding NOPE. The size of the largest hitbox comes nowhere close to being able to attack the snap back. Ahh well. It was worth a try.
 

Wintropy

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How useful is b-air as an edgeguarding tool? Playing my brother's Roy today, I managed to keep him from getting close to the stage with some well-timed shield smackin'.

Is that consistent with other characters, or just the ones with mediocre and traceable recoveries?
 

JosePollo

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How useful is b-air as an edgeguarding tool? Playing my brother's Roy today, I managed to keep him from getting close to the stage with some well-timed shield smackin'.

Is that consistent with other characters, or just the ones with mediocre and traceable recoveries?
Bair's useful if you can predict when they'll use an offensive get-up option like attacking from the ledge, jumping from the ledge then attacking, or dropping from the ledge then jumping and attacking. You can use it to go off-stage to punish more offensive recoveries like a Fox/Falco side b, Pikachu's Skull Bash, Ike's Quick Draw, Luigi's Missile, etc. etc. Up smash can't be used off-stage, so if you can correctly predict their side b attempt it's a great way to intercept their recovery before they even come close to the stage. You risk putting yourself in an unfavorable position if you miss, but the reward can be as high as a stock due to bair's strong knockback growth, especially if you catch them after they spend their mid-air jump.
 
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