P.T counters Meta Knight =0

[SlitMyMemories]

I kno it sounds very doubtful but as a former MK mainer I feel this is an even matchup.I have fought Gud mks and win more times than i lose (85-15).Ivy can stop mks wit B easily and aproaches and kill @ low percents.I kno ivy gets gimped like crazy but i always comebak.Charizard already has an even matchup,and the fact that down B refreshes moves just ensures a ko.Squirt gets pwnd tho,but a down throw is just needed on high %s.Ivy to me is the best,spotdoging and B rack up 20% and up.BTW PT=high tier

 

[SlitMyMemories]

I want some opinions,what do you P.T users think.(Discuss)

 

[Toby.]

Sorry, but no.

Bullet seed can be DI'd out of during the initial launch. Even if you land it, its not enough to make a dent against meta. Your opponent's are most likely very bad if you can stop them using one predictable move. Being able to switch doesn't "ensure a ko", either. Switching takes so long that you should only really doing it after a KO.

Seriously though. No. You would be better off arguing that ivysaur is neutral (which I would also disagree with) rather than a counter, which is just outrageous.

 

[SlitMyMemories]

ivys B is faster than almost any move,and can interupt any pressure on u,it doesnt just have to be for the damage racking.sidetilt has many hits,enough to shield poke or disrupt mks dash atak or grab aproaches.fairs can be stoped wit sideB spam,and glide aproaches sometimes fall nicely into a vine whip.anyways if ivy dies char is next.key is to hit wit ivys upsmash,mostly out of nowhere to surprise spotdoges.Down B can be easily used with da 3 pokes strongest throws at respectful %s on the opponent.

 

[Toby.]

Ivy has an incredibly slow upsmash that we can't possibly rely on. Whilst bullet seed STARTS fast, a single missed bullet seed (which will be happening a lot if you are using it to disrupt mk's approaches) puts you in a world of pain thanks to ending lag. The fact that ftilt has many hits isn't enough to nullify metaknights excellent range, disjointed hitboxes, gimping skills and recovery.

So far you have only mentioned things you can do vs a metaknight, not why ivysaur is apparently a counter. Squirtle can kill meta at low % with down throw. That doesn't make him a counter, though. Same thing here.

 

[SlitMyMemories]

lol i said p.t is a counter,not all three by themselfs.For example i start off ivy with smart play,always staying away from the edges,if he leaves mk @ around 86% a bak throw can allow a safe switch,or forward smash.The strategy is in the order of switch.if char fails wich he shouldnt,by then mks % shud be high enough for squirts downthrow.i think pt be can toptier by switching specificaly on every charac @ exact %s.btw u sound like u switch pt only wen he dies,my strategy succeeds byswitching when posible

 

[Toby.]

lol i said p.t is a counter,not all three by themselfs.

In the metaknight matchup thread you specifically said that you think Ivysaur is a counter.

Regarding switching, I do so when it is appropriate, and according to the matchup. Sometimes that is after a KO. sometimes it isn't. Metaknight is so fast and mobile that it is often very risky to switch out. I was also operating under the assumption that you were still trying to prove that Ivysaur is a metaknight counter. If thats the case, you wouldn't want to switch ivy out because you'd be leaving your best character tired on the bench.

What you just described is a very general way to use PT. In no way is that system of switching particularly relevent to metaknight, and certainly does not show that Ivysaur or PT as a whole is a counter to him.

If you want to keep this discussion going, reply in the matchup thread.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, if you were to look at the Meta Knight discussion here, you'll see my post as a pretty good example.

Meta Knight vs Squirtle: There was a myth when we were discussing Meta Knight which stated that Squirtle was the best (now we know he's the worst of the three), this is one of the reasons why this is utterly false. Squirtle uses a hit and run method of attack, while Meta Knight has a better hit and run game (or hit and pursue, which is more like it). To compound things even further, Meta Knight is really hard to gimp, which is how Squirtle primarily KOs opponents. Meteor smashes are likely the best way to take out Meta Knight, Squirtle has none.
Conclusion: Huge advantage to Meta knight

Meta Knight vs Ivysaur: This is more even. Meta knight does not have the range that Ivysaur has, and Ivysaur easily can knock out any person foolish enough to try to hit him in the air. In aerial combat, Meta Knight rules here, especially offstage. His gimp game (being his primary KO method or otherwise) is pretty good, and Ivysaur has a well known poor recovery.
Conclusion: Even, though there might be some lean towards Meta knight

MK vs Charizard: Charizard is MUCH harder for MK than you would assume. Charizard out ranges Meta Knight with Flamethrower, and his strength should Knock out Meta Knight earlier than normal. Also, Charizard primarily uses his grab game, and considering it's range and how easy it is to shield grab, Meta will literally be in Charizard's hand much of the time. Meta Knight must also be careful of the Dair, a meteor smash, which is the only good method of gimping Meta Knight. However, Charizard doesn't have a fast finisher, and he is large, which would offset some of these.
Conclusion: Even, although some lean towards Charizard is likely

 

[infernovia]

I am moving my reply to you to the matchup thread.

 

[yostuffstank]

ppl say that bullet seed is easy to di out of, but it really is not. most of the good di out of bullet seed i see are on accident or unintentionally done.

 

[Toby.]

What about it makes it hard to DI out of? If they are running at you, they already have the DI to pop right out the other side. If they see it coming all they have to do is hold a direction. Its quick, yes, but at higher level play it becomes significantly riskier.

 

[Adriel]

I wouldn't say PT counters MK, but the match-up overall is fairly neutral in my opinion.

 

[Onxy]

I think so too.

 

[Charizard92]

Me three. The tier list does NOT dictate match ups, so it is possible for PT to be neutral to Meta Knight yet still be kinda low on the tier list (of course, the hopeful are hoping that PT will rise, and that the margin isn't as great as in Melee).

 

[Hydde]

welll that comment about the margin is true. The gap between the lowers and highers is not that big in comparison to melee

 

[Charizard92]

Actually, so is the Matchup part as well.

 

[Toby.]

Me three. The tier list does NOT dictate match ups, so it is possible for PT to be neutral to Meta Knight yet still be kinda low on the tier list (of course, the hopeful are hoping that PT will rise, and that the margin isn't as great as in Melee).

*Remembers you saying squirtle sucks due to yoshi having an advantage*



What you are saying are tiers is true, but it doesn't really inform us on the matchup itself. The problem with it being neutral is that meta has many, many tools which are just a little bit better than what we have.

Remember how the marth boards put him at a disadvantage against meta partly because his dtilt outranges theirs?

Well it outranges ours as well, and is faster. He also (this is taken from their analysis now) has:

• Faster Running Speed
• Faster Attack Speed (though on the ground squirtle is exempt from this)
• Less Lag On Attacks
• Superior Ground Game
• High Priority Specials
• Superior Approach
• Amazing Recovery
• Exceptional Gimp Ability
• Good Edge Guard Ability

They have him down as a 60-40 in meta's favour. I think we'd need some strong justification to prove that PT is neutral. Since we couldn't prove that a single pokemon is even neutral with metaknight, I think its tough to call the overall matchup a neutral one.

 

[Bowser King]

I would say PT does about even towards MK.

 

[Charizard92]

*Remembers you saying squirtle sucks due to yoshi having an advantage*



What you are saying are tiers is true, but it doesn't really inform us on the matchup itself. The problem with it being neutral is that meta has many, many tools which are just a little bit better than what we have.

Remember how the marth boards put him at a disadvantage against meta partly because his dtilt outranges theirs?

Well it outranges ours as well, and is faster. He also (this is taken from their analysis now) has:

• Faster Running Speed
• Faster Attack Speed (though on the ground squirtle is exempt from this)
• Less Lag On Attacks
• Superior Ground Game
• High Priority Specials
• Superior Approach
• Amazing Recovery
• Exceptional Gimp Ability
• Good Edge Guard Ability

They have him down as a 60-40 in meta's favor. I think we'd need some strong justification to prove that PT is neutral. Since we couldn't prove that a single pokemon is even neutral with metaknight, I think its tough to call the overall matchup a neutral one.

Yeah, some times even I don't know what the **** I'm even arguing about, which is why I sometimes lose Arguments. OK, I get your point, MK is slightly faster than Charizard, along with being sickenly broken, but it could be a neutral match up. Yeah, I really got to stop pointing to the tier list.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah, if you were to look at the Meta Knight discussion here, you'll see my post as a pretty good example.

Meta Knight vs Squirtle: There was a myth when we were discussing Meta Knight which stated that Squirtle was the best (now we know he's the worst of the three), this is one of the reasons why this is utterly false. Squirtle uses a hit and run method of attack, while Meta Knight has a better hit and run game (or hit and pursue, which is more like it). To compound things even further, Meta Knight is really hard to gimp, which is how Squirtle primarily KOs opponents. Meteor smashes are likely the best way to take out Meta Knight, Squirtle has none.
Conclusion: Huge advantage to Meta knight

Meta Knight vs Ivysaur: This is more even. Meta knight does not have the range that Ivysaur has, and Ivysaur easily can knock out any person foolish enough to try to hit him in the air. In aerial combat, Meta Knight rules here, especially offstage. His gimp game (being his primary KO method or otherwise) is pretty good, and Ivysaur has a well known poor recovery.
Conclusion: Even, though there might be some lean towards Meta knight

MK vs Charizard: Charizard is MUCH harder for MK than you would assume. Charizard out ranges Meta Knight with Flamethrower, and his strength should Knock out Meta Knight earlier than normal. Also, Charizard primarily uses his grab game, and considering it's range and how easy it is to shield grab, Meta will literally be in Charizard's hand much of the time. Meta Knight must also be careful of the Dair, a meteor smash, which is the only good method of gimping Meta Knight. However, Charizard doesn't have a fast finisher, and he is large, which would offset some of these.
Conclusion: Even, although some lean towards Charizard is likely

I love how you overrate Charizard and underrate Squirtle in every single one of your posts.

 

[Charizard92]

just shut up

 

[Ryusuta]

I'm just razzing ya.

Here, have a Blissey doll!

 

[Charizard92]

A: What does razzing even mean?
B: I like Charmander, blissey, not so much.

 

[Onxy]

From my experience, Ivy does the best, and Charizard does the worst.

 

[Charizard92]

On Meta Knight or in general? If either, remember, your Charizard sucks. OK Orion, I overrate Charizard, but what do ya think got me into Video games in the first place?! I kinda got "Charizard is great" lodged into my brain, but He is at least the most practical of the three (of course, I can't say this for certain, as the match up list is still not done).

 

[Onxy]

My Charizard is okay, but my other two are better. Ivysaur used to be my worst, and now she holds my team. Squirtle isn't cutting it anymore, I'm not sure if it's him or me.

I'm talking about MK. Charizard has the superior moveset/stats compared to Ivy, but like I said, it was my experience.

 

[Ryusuta]

A: What does razzing even mean?

Basically, giving you crap in a good-natured sort of way. Nothing mean-spirited about it; just teasing a little bit.

B: I like Charmander, blissey, not so much.

That's because you HAVE NO SOUL!

OK Orion, I overrate Charizard, but what do ya think got me into Video games in the first place?!

Hey, you're talking to a card-carrying draconic of over 16 years. If anyone can appreciate how awesome Charizard is, it's me. In terms of design alone, he is BY FAR the coolest Pokemon in history, in my opinion.

I kinda got "Charizard is great" lodged into my brain, but He is at least the most practical of the three (of course, I can't say this for certain, as the match up list is still not done).

It's really a toss-up between Charizard and Ivysaur, I'd say. Ivysaur still has the disjointed hitboxes and camping game that are vital against many types of character, while Charizard has his specials, tilts, forward air, and superior grab game.

 

[Onxy]

Charizard has better smashes, specials, recovery, weight, and grabs, while on par with everything else.

 

[Charizard92]

Basically, giving you crap in a good-natured sort of way. Nothing mean-spirited about it; just teasing a little bit.



That's because you HAVE NO SOUL!



Hey, you're talking to a card-carrying draconic of over 16 years. If anyone can appreciate how awesome Charizard is, it's me. In terms of design alone, he is BY FAR the coolest Pokemon in history, in my opinion.



It's really a toss-up between Charizard and Ivysaur, I'd say. Ivysaur still has the disjointed hitboxes and camping game that are vital against many types of character, while Charizard has his specials, tilts, forward air, and superior grab game.

Well, Pardon me, but what do ya call your avatar?

what's a Draconic? either way, only Charmander outranks Charizard on my list (and they're in the same evolutionary line, so it isn't much of a problem)

Oh, and Charizard is better than most heavy hitters. (Dedede is an obvious one that outranks him, I'm not even sure what Snake is, and Bowser is compared to Charizard, but maybe incorrectly...) (this may be a premature prediction though, as the only heavy character we even talked about is Snake).

 

[Onxy]

I find that Charizard does very well against Snake.

 

[Fearmy]

wait i thought the best way to kill MK was by grabbing?

 

[Onxy]

Not if he spaces well.

 

[infernovia]

The coolest design? DD Gyarados says hi.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

DD??? charizard is also my favourite pokemon, over sandslash,jolteon,dewgong, absol,sceptile and more... ... i dont like gyarados idk why, but its cool, oh, and i think bissey is uggly.. o wait... this is adiscussion about MK.. i think pt doesnt counter, but its kinda neutral imo... too bad MK mains dont think like me

 

[Ryusuta]

The coolest design? DD Gyarados says hi.

Gyarados has the same problem as Golbat - the mouth constantly hanging open is disturbing to look at.

 

[Sinz]

*Remembers you saying squirtle sucks due to yoshi having an advantage*



What you are saying are tiers is true, but it doesn't really inform us on the matchup itself. The problem with it being neutral is that meta has many, many tools which are just a little bit better than what we have.

Remember how the marth boards put him at a disadvantage against meta partly because his dtilt outranges theirs?

Well it outranges ours as well, and is faster. He also (this is taken from their analysis now) has:

• Faster Running Speed
• Faster Attack Speed (though on the ground squirtle is exempt from this)
• Less Lag On Attacks
• Superior Ground Game
• High Priority Specials
• Superior Approach
• Amazing Recovery
• Exceptional Gimp Ability
• Good Edge Guard Ability

They have him down as a 60-40 in meta's favour. I think we'd need some strong justification to prove that PT is neutral. Since we couldn't prove that a single pokemon is even neutral with metaknight, I think its tough to call the overall matchup a neutral one.

The MK boards are retarted, they think that Snake is a 60-40 MU.
So PT being teh same difficulty as snake? No way.Fighting against a Snake who is equal in skill is ridiculous. Sure, MK can gimp, but snake is snake.

 

[Hydde]

yep...snake is the strongest ofthe cast by far... he almost seem out of place with all those attacks far better than everyone else.

 

[infernovia]

Gyarados has the same problem as Golbat - the mouth constantly hanging open is disturbing to look at.

Thats why it has to be you using it sir.

And seriously, just go to your diamond/pearl and pick out gyarados and use DD. Tell me that doesn't look awesome.

 

[Ryusuta]

yep...snake is the strongest ofthe cast by far... he almost seem out of place with all those attacks far better than everyone else.

This was considered the case awhile ago, but Meta Knight has been DOMINATING the tournament scene lately. Snake has long-since been dethroned by him.

 

[Onxy]

The MK boards are retarted, they think that Snake is a 60-40 MU.
So PT being teh same difficulty as snake? No way.Fighting against a Snake who is equal in skill is ridiculous. Sure, MK can gimp, but snake is snake.

But that's just Snake. I know he is Snake, and he can hit you from the otherside of the world with his Ftilt, but it's possible.