Overall Speed of the Game

[YigNanner]

From what I can tell (unfortunately I didn't get to go to E3) the game seems to run slower than Melee, but faster than Brawl. I can also tell that fast comboing is making a return. Do you think it'll be the same speed as the Wii U version? It might just be me, but I have been noticing that the 3DS version has been a bit faster, but I also noticed that the game has gotten slower than the match at E3 last year between Sakurai and that other dude from Nintendo of America.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Yes I think it's the same,perhaps you think it's faster due to screen sizes.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yes I think it's the same,perhaps you think it's faster due to screen sizes.

No its actually faster than Brawl.

 

[Nstinct]

No its actually faster than Brawl.

Jade was saying that the WiiU and 3DS speeds were the same, hence "perhaps you think it's faster due to screen sizes."

 

[Crome]

No its actually faster than Brawl.

Read the op again. OP was asking if the 3ds was faster than wii u, and jade suggested it was due to screen sizes. No one is comparing the 3ds to brawl.
Edit: Damnit nstinct, stop lurking harder than me.

 

[Nstinct]

Damnit nstinct, stop lurking harder than me.

I figured you'd be a whole minute late so I decided to post first.

 

[Johnknight1]

The sideways DI isn't as much, but other than that it feels almost exactly the same.

Well that and there's possibly more combo potential I think, and KO's are DEFINITELY easier.

 

[BioZelink]

The sideways DI isn't as much, but other than that it feels almost exactly the same.

Well that and there's possibly more combo potential I think, and KO's are DEFINITELY easier.

Can you please elaborate on that? How are the KO's easier and why are combos easier?

 

[Johnknight1]

Can you please elaborate on that? How are the KO's easier and why are combos easier?

Well for one there is lagless landing cancelling for many moves. I think every character's neutral air and Z-air (if they have the latter) automatically cancel all lag on the ground when you land while using them. Essentially it is Z-canceling in 64, only without clicking Z (thus being automatic).

On top of that, ground moves combo into each other really easily. The ground game feels A LOT like Smash 64.

This all leads to easy followups, especially since there is a lot of hitstun. The hitstun is actually overall pretty strong, and allows you to follow up an aerial attack with just about any ground attack that you can launch in 20 frames, including essentially every smash attacks.

Characters get KO'd easier too, as they get KO'd at lower percentages. If you don't abuse a move (thanks to stale move negations, which is a much bigger deal than in Brawl, especially with the high roofs), you can often follow up aerials (or up tilts, a lot of which combo into aerials [which aerials combo into ground moves; see a flow=???]).

For one combo with Toon Link on Marth, I was able to use all this knowledge.

My boomerang on the return landed, and I followed up with a forward air (normally a KO move but this was low percentage) into a lagless landing into an up tilt, another up tilt, and a last up tilt into a lagless Z-air into a forward smash (I got both hits of it) for a KO and a combo that did about 40% easily.

I could have likely extended the KO.

But yeah, with all that extended hitstun, the lagless landing, ground moves being combo machines, KO moves doing a ton of knockback if you don't have stale moves negation, and the lack of sideways DI (watch footage MvC3; that's what the DI feels like [minus the ability to jump THAT HIGH THAT EASILY], and it makes it hard to defend in the air, especially since hitstun prevents air dodge spamming defense and air dodges aren't as good) all add up to a more offensive game with more combos and KO's.

Hopefully that answered your question!!!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Jade was saying that the WiiU and 3DS speeds were the same, hence "perhaps you think it's faster due to screen sizes."

Thats what i get for trying to read two things at the same time @_@.
From what I saw, it looks like the 3ds was also having frame issues no?

 

[DaDavid]

Thats what i get for trying to read two things at the same time @_@.
From what I saw, it looks like the 3ds was also having frame issues no?

Absolutely not, at least, not based on what I played.

It runs incredibly smoothly. I imagine that any speed different that one notices between the two versions is either due to screen size, or amount of stuff going on in the particular matches.

 

[BioZelink]

Well for one there is lagless landing cancelling for many moves. I think every character's neutral air and Z-air (if they have the latter) automatically cancel all lag on the ground when you land while using them. Essentially it is Z-canceling in 64, only without clicking Z (thus being automatic).

On top of that, ground moves combo into each other really easily. The ground game feels A LOT like Smash 64.

This all leads to easy followups, especially since there is a lot of hitstun. The hitstun is actually overall pretty strong, and allows you to follow up an aerial attack with just about any ground attack that you can launch in 20 frames, including essentially every smash attacks.

Characters get KO'd easier too, as they get KO'd at lower percentages. If you don't abuse a move (thanks to stale move negations, which is a much bigger deal than in Brawl, especially with the high roofs), you can often follow up aerials (or up tilts, a lot of which combo into aerials [which aerials combo into ground moves; see a flow=???]).

For one combo with Toon Link on Marth, I was able to use all this knowledge.

My boomerang on the return landed, and I followed up with a forward air (normally a KO move but this was low percentage) into a lagless landing into an up tilt, another up tilt, and a last up tilt into a lagless Z-air into a forward smash (I got both hits of it) for a KO and a combo that did about 40% easily.

I could have likely extended the KO.

But yeah, with all that extended hitstun, the lagless landing, ground moves being combo machines, KO moves doing a ton of knockback if you don't have stale moves negation, and the lack of sideways DI (watch footage MvC3; that's what the DI feels like [minus the ability to jump THAT HIGH THAT EASILY], and it makes it hard to defend in the air, especially since hitstun prevents air dodge spamming defense and air dodges aren't as good) all add up to a more offensive game with more combos and KO's.

Hopefully that answered your question!!!

It absolutely did, thanks.

 

[Johnknight1]

Thats what i get for trying to read two things at the same time @_@.
From what I saw, it looks like the 3ds was also having frame issues no?

The only frame rate issues are from frequency mix ups when around a lot of 3DS'. I had this happen to me and my brother in our match for 10 seconds where for 5 seconds the game froze, for 3 seconds we got less than 10 frames per second, and for 2 seconds we got roughly 20 frames per second (before going back to normal).

That's why I hope (and I know this sounds silly) we get a wired connection option for the 3DS. This would basically confirm that the 3DS version competitively will last for (IRL) tournaments.

Of course things like a lot of items on the screen will cause lag, but that applies to every smash game.

It absolutely did, thanks.

Glad I could help! Don't be afraid to ask questions! ^_^

(trust me, if there's anything I love, it's gameplay discussion and questions!!!)

 

[DaDavid]

I still feel like the overall choice of stages is a danger for competitive 3DS play. I'm aware more could be shown, but so far the 3DS seems very very lacking it neutral looking stages compared to Wii U. But yeah, a wired option would be incredible.

 

[Nstinct]

I still feel like the overall choice of stages is a danger for competitive 3DS play. I'm aware more could be shown, but so far the 3DS seems very very lacking it neutral looking stages compared to Wii U. But yeah, a wired option would be incredible.

I think it'll be ok as soon as they release old stages from past smash games (brawl included.) I think Brawl has 7 tournament legal stages and so far the 3DS has 2 seemingly tournament legal stages and 4 if you include BF and FD. That means that we'd only need few more neutral oldies and we'd be set stage-wise. I'm not that I want it to only be 7 though, I'd love to have plethora of legal stages.

Sadly the Wii U has a lot of huge stages, so I'm guessing there's only 4 (6 with BF & FD) seemingly legal stages.

 

[Yodude57]

Well for one there is lagless landing cancelling for many moves. I think every character's neutral air and Z-air (if they have the latter) automatically cancel all lag on the ground when you land while using them. Essentially it is Z-canceling in 64, only without clicking Z (thus being automatic).

On top of that, ground moves combo into each other really easily. The ground game feels A LOT like Smash 64.

This all leads to easy followups, especially since there is a lot of hitstun. The hitstun is actually overall pretty strong, and allows you to follow up an aerial attack with just about any ground attack that you can launch in 20 frames, including essentially every smash attacks.

Characters get KO'd easier too, as they get KO'd at lower percentages. If you don't abuse a move (thanks to stale move negations, which is a much bigger deal than in Brawl, especially with the high roofs), you can often follow up aerials (or up tilts, a lot of which combo into aerials [which aerials combo into ground moves; see a flow=???]).

For one combo with Toon Link on Marth, I was able to use all this knowledge.

My boomerang on the return landed, and I followed up with a forward air (normally a KO move but this was low percentage) into a lagless landing into an up tilt, another up tilt, and a last up tilt into a lagless Z-air into a forward smash (I got both hits of it) for a KO and a combo that did about 40% easily.

I could have likely extended the KO.

But yeah, with all that extended hitstun, the lagless landing, ground moves being combo machines, KO moves doing a ton of knockback if you don't have stale moves negation, and the lack of sideways DI (watch footage MvC3; that's what the DI feels like [minus the ability to jump THAT HIGH THAT EASILY], and it makes it hard to defend in the air, especially since hitstun prevents air dodge spamming defense and air dodges aren't as good) all add up to a more offensive game with more combos and KO's.

Hopefully that answered your question!!!

Thx for writing this I was wondering about how competitive smash would be this time around and how combo friendly this game would be! Because brawl was completely lacking in combos I was hoping they would up it a bit because although I don't like a lot of combos I still like them to be present.

 

[☆Jazz☆]

The speed of the game (imo) is perfect. It should always stay that way.

 

[Johnknight1]

Thx for writing this I was wondering about how competitive smash would be this time around and how combo friendly this game would be! Because brawl was completely lacking in combos I was hoping they would up it a bit because although I don't like a lot of combos I still like them to be present.

First off, let me tell there are a ton of Brawl combos. The problem is some of them are too easy, too broken, and most likely are super janky and not that exciting to watch. I know of about a dozen combos that can do about 80% and you can't escape from, and I haven't played Brawl since 2009.

And yes, as I mentioned before here and in other threads there are a lot of combos. A LOT OF COMBOS, some of them quite frankly TOO GOOD!

First off, the DI in the game is a lot like Marvel vs. Capcom. There's Brawl-like (I'd say about 80% of Brawl's) vertical (up and down) DI (the "floaty" vs. "fast fall" speed difference might be the biggest in smash history), but the horizontal (side to side) DI is the least in the franchise BY FAR, and it makes defense in the air awful. That means if you're in the air, you either better be hyper aggressive, or else you get harmed, especially if you are above an opponent (the worst spot to be).

However, there are lagless aerials. Think of Smash 64 Z-canceling without pressing Z. That's what a lot of aerials are like. Roughly half of aerials are lagless, and they are almost always the best aerials each character has. This means aerial to ground combos are really strong. This also means that if you have aerial moves that chain together and you have ground moves that stun, you can potentially have 0 to KO combos.

But to the feel of the game. The mechanics of how movement works and the controls feel are very similar to Brawl. Very similar. It almost feels like Brawl with the previous 2 game's combos, and it is super awesome.

The combos are very

However, the combos are a lot like Smash 64. Due to the DI things and the lagless aerials I just mentioned to you, the options feel like Smash 64 (but with more defense and more defensive options like spot dodging [which is still a bit too good IMO] and air dodging [which is properly balanced]). The combos similar to the vertical pillar combos in Smash 64, except with more opportunities to go up and then down, instead of just going up and getting a KO in one combo sequence.

However, unlike Smash 64, the flow of the combos feels a lot like Melee. I don't know how to explain it other than when I get combos, it feels like it has that "reward" of Melee where it feels like you "earned it" even if a combo is automatic. Also the timing of combos is very Melee-esk, as are the finishing moves (for KO's or other big moves) is very similar to Melee.

So overall with the mechanics of Melee, the pillaring and vertical combos of 64, and the combo feel of Melee, and it is awesome. Hopefully with more balance and gameplay changes, it turns out better than what we saw. Regardless, what we saw was generally pretty great, and a bit better than what I expected.

I still feel like the overall choice of stages is a danger for competitive 3DS play. I'm aware more could be shown, but so far the 3DS seems very very lacking it neutral looking stages compared to Wii U. But yeah, a wired option would be incredible.

I would disagree. Tortimer's Island isn't as bad as it looks, and possibly will be legal. Prism Tower is basically just FD with a few Battlefield stops. Prism Tower should be a neutral stage. The same is true of Rainbow Road, only with more and longer stops, and the cars can KO (but they are slow and easy to dodge). I think Rainbow Road will definitely be legal, especially in doubles where it might even be doubles neutral.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

First off, let me tell there are a ton of Brawl combos. The problem is some of them are too easy, too broken, and most likely are super janky and not that exciting to watch. I know of about a dozen combos that can do about 80% and you can't escape from, and I haven't played Brawl since 2009.

And yes, as I mentioned before here and in other threads there are a lot of combos. A LOT OF COMBOS, some of them quite frankly TOO GOOD!

First off, the DI in the game is a lot like Marvel vs. Capcom. There's Brawl-like (I'd say about 80% of Brawl's) vertical (up and down) DI (the "floaty" vs. "fast fall" speed difference might be the biggest in smash history), but the horizontal (side to side) DI is the least in the franchise BY FAR, and it makes defense in the air awful. That means if you're in the air, you either better be hyper aggressive, or else you get harmed, especially if you are above an opponent (the worst spot to be).

However, there are lagless aerials. Think of Smash 64 Z-canceling without pressing Z. That's what a lot of aerials are like. Roughly half of aerials are lagless, and they are almost always the best aerials each character has. This means aerial to ground combos are really strong. This also means that if you have aerial moves that chain together and you have ground moves that stun, you can potentially have 0 to KO combos.

But to the feel of the game. The mechanics of how movement works and the controls feel are very similar to Brawl. Very similar. It almost feels like Brawl with the previous 2 game's combos, and it is super awesome.

The combos are very

However, the combos are a lot like Smash 64. Due to the DI things and the lagless aerials I just mentioned to you, the options feel like Smash 64 (but with more defense and more defensive options like spot dodging [which is still a bit too good IMO] and air dodging [which is properly balanced]). The combos similar to the vertical pillar combos in Smash 64, except with more opportunities to go up and then down, instead of just going up and getting a KO in one combo sequence.

However, unlike Smash 64, the flow of the combos feels a lot like Melee. I don't know how to explain it other than when I get combos, it feels like it has that "reward" of Melee where it feels like you "earned it" even if a combo is automatic. Also the timing of combos is very Melee-esk, as are the finishing moves (for KO's or other big moves) is very similar to Melee.

So overall with the mechanics of Melee, the pillaring and vertical combos of 64, and the combo feel of Melee, and it is awesome. Hopefully with more balance and gameplay changes, it turns out better than what we saw. Regardless, what we saw was generally pretty great, and a bit better than what I expected.

I would disagree. Tortimer's Island isn't as bad as it looks, and possibly will be legal. Prism Tower is basically just FD with a few Battlefield stops. Prism Tower should be a neutral stage. The same is true of Rainbow Road, only with more and longer stops, and the cars can KO (but they are slow and easy to dodge). I think Rainbow Road will definitely be legal, especially in doubles where it might even be doubles neutral.

Thanks for your input. I have high hopes and this helps reassure me. Awesome!

 

[Yodude57]

First off, let me tell there are a ton of Brawl combos. The problem is some of them are too easy, too broken, and most likely are super janky and not that exciting to watch. I know of about a dozen combos that can do about 80% and you can't escape from, and I haven't played Brawl since 2009.

And yes, as I mentioned before here and in other threads there are a lot of combos. A LOT OF COMBOS, some of them quite frankly TOO GOOD!

First off, the DI in the game is a lot like Marvel vs. Capcom. There's Brawl-like (I'd say about 80% of Brawl's) vertical (up and down) DI (the "floaty" vs. "fast fall" speed difference might be the biggest in smash history), but the horizontal (side to side) DI is the least in the franchise BY FAR, and it makes defense in the air awful. That means if you're in the air, you either better be hyper aggressive, or else you get harmed, especially if you are above an opponent (the worst spot to be).

However, there are lagless aerials. Think of Smash 64 Z-canceling without pressing Z. That's what a lot of aerials are like. Roughly half of aerials are lagless, and they are almost always the best aerials each character has. This means aerial to ground combos are really strong. This also means that if you have aerial moves that chain together and you have ground moves that stun, you can potentially have 0 to KO combos.

But to the feel of the game. The mechanics of how movement works and the controls feel are very similar to Brawl. Very similar. It almost feels like Brawl with the previous 2 game's combos, and it is super awesome.

The combos are very

However, the combos are a lot like Smash 64. Due to the DI things and the lagless aerials I just mentioned to you, the options feel like Smash 64 (but with more defense and more defensive options like spot dodging [which is still a bit too good IMO] and air dodging [which is properly balanced]). The combos similar to the vertical pillar combos in Smash 64, except with more opportunities to go up and then down, instead of just going up and getting a KO in one combo sequence.

However, unlike Smash 64, the flow of the combos feels a lot like Melee. I don't know how to explain it other than when I get combos, it feels like it has that "reward" of Melee where it feels like you "earned it" even if a combo is automatic. Also the timing of combos is very Melee-esk, as are the finishing moves (for KO's or other big moves) is very similar to Melee.

So overall with the mechanics of Melee, the pillaring and vertical combos of 64, and the combo feel of Melee, and it is awesome. Hopefully with more balance and gameplay changes, it turns out better than what we saw. Regardless, what we saw was generally pretty great, and a bit better than what I expected.

Thx for that! It is really useful info! From the way you put it it seems as though they are trying to take the best things from previous smash bros games and combine it into this one. Would you say that is true? Also do you think the reason a lot of characters seem to have buffs in their recoveries is because DI sideways is not as good this time around?

 

[Reila]

The speed of the game (imo) is perfect. It should always stay that way.

I agree, the speed is perfect. I don't want a game as fast as Melee never again in this series.

 

[Goten21]

I still feel like the overall choice of stages is a danger for competitive 3DS play. I'm aware more could be shown, but so far the 3DS seems very very lacking it neutral looking stages compared to Wii U. But yeah, a wired option would be incredible.

*cough cough* Final Destination option *cough cough*

 

[☆Jazz☆]

I agree, the speed is perfect. I don't want a game as fast as Melee never again in this series.

Me too. In Melee, everything was a little too fast. Melee; If you were knocked off of Final Destination (and because of the hit-stun), your doomed, unless your character has the best recovery in the game. Brawl was a bit too floaty for me. SSB4 is just perfect.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

First off, let me tell there are a ton of Brawl combos. The problem is some of them are too easy, too broken, and most likely are super janky and not that exciting to watch. I know of about a dozen combos that can do about 80% and you can't escape from, and I haven't played Brawl since 2009.

And yes, as I mentioned before here and in other threads there are a lot of combos. A LOT OF COMBOS, some of them quite frankly TOO GOOD!

First off, the DI in the game is a lot like Marvel vs. Capcom. There's Brawl-like (I'd say about 80% of Brawl's) vertical (up and down) DI (the "floaty" vs. "fast fall" speed difference might be the biggest in smash history), but the horizontal (side to side) DI is the least in the franchise BY FAR, and it makes defense in the air awful. That means if you're in the air, you either better be hyper aggressive, or else you get harmed, especially if you are above an opponent (the worst spot to be).

However, there are lagless aerials. Think of Smash 64 Z-canceling without pressing Z. That's what a lot of aerials are like. Roughly half of aerials are lagless, and they are almost always the best aerials each character has. This means aerial to ground combos are really strong. This also means that if you have aerial moves that chain together and you have ground moves that stun, you can potentially have 0 to KO combos.

But to the feel of the game. The mechanics of how movement works and the controls feel are very similar to Brawl. Very similar. It almost feels like Brawl with the previous 2 game's combos, and it is super awesome.

The combos are very

However, the combos are a lot like Smash 64. Due to the DI things and the lagless aerials I just mentioned to you, the options feel like Smash 64 (but with more defense and more defensive options like spot dodging [which is still a bit too good IMO] and air dodging [which is properly balanced]). The combos similar to the vertical pillar combos in Smash 64, except with more opportunities to go up and then down, instead of just going up and getting a KO in one combo sequence.

However, unlike Smash 64, the flow of the combos feels a lot like Melee. I don't know how to explain it other than when I get combos, it feels like it has that "reward" of Melee where it feels like you "earned it" even if a combo is automatic. Also the timing of combos is very Melee-esk, as are the finishing moves (for KO's or other big moves) is very similar to Melee.

So overall with the mechanics of Melee, the pillaring and vertical combos of 64, and the combo feel of Melee, and it is awesome. Hopefully with more balance and gameplay changes, it turns out better than what we saw. Regardless, what we saw was generally pretty great, and a bit better than what I expected.

I would disagree. Tortimer's Island isn't as bad as it looks, and possibly will be legal. Prism Tower is basically just FD with a few Battlefield stops. Prism Tower should be a neutral stage. The same is true of Rainbow Road, only with more and longer stops, and the cars can KO (but they are slow and easy to dodge). I think Rainbow Road will definitely be legal, especially in doubles where it might even be doubles neutral.

I'm going to call bull****, honestly.

Show me some video footage of inescapable 80% damage combos in Brawl, either by you or any professional player (who you'd think would be using them). I've yet to see anything of this nature in Brawl, much less would Brawl be tethered in to the "no combos" complaint if such things existed in high frequency. Until I see examples you are talking out of your bum.

 

[TimeSmash]

@Zipzo This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-pxIUO3gE come to mind, who knows how the DI was in that video haha.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

@Zipzo This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF-pxIUO3gE come to mind, who knows how the DI was in that video haha.

Even the video info says explicitly that characters can escape it.

 

[TimeSmash]

Even the video info says explicitly that characters can escape it.

I think this statement more applies to certain characters that have frame-one invincibility. The video (sort of?) says it is also percentage dependent. I'm not saying there are a lot of things like this in Brawl, but it's an interesting example. Brawl is still pretty combo-lacking either way, and examples of "true" combos lie few and far in between, especially in relation to something like a 0-80% (are there any? Knee locking maybe). I'm hoping Smash 4 has some generous hitstun to alleviate this

 

[Johnknight1]

I'm going to call bull****, honestly.

Show me some video footage of inescapable 80% damage combos in Brawl, either by you or any professional player (who you'd think would be using them). I've yet to see anything of this nature in Brawl, much less would Brawl be tethered in to the "no combos" complaint if such things existed in high frequency. Until I see examples you are talking out of your bum.

>Bowser can chain grab by grab releasing on Wario, and it is an infinite on a wall until Wario jump releases.
>Dedede chain grabs anyone as heavy as Marth on up with his down throw. Dedede can also chain grab against a wall infinitely.
>Ice Climbers chain grabs. They can literally infinite grab the entire roster when both Ice Climbers are present.
>Fox can forward throw dash cancel chain throws. There's a special super unknown one I know where you do that and involve the down air.
>Pikachu can chain grab combo with buffering out of his forward and down throws, including Fox to about 115%. Pikachu can chain grab Wario off a ledge until 120%.
>Wario chain grab combos. He can chain grab with a grab, down throw, and buffer into a turn around re-grab. He can do this Captain Falcon 0-70%, Ganondorf 0-80%, Wolf 20-220%, Falco 52-120%, Donkey Kong 0-145% (DK can jump out between 100-110%), Bowser 0-180% (you can finish this with a Wario Waft). Buffering and using it to reverse grab is a hard but useful skill to master.
>Tons of combos (including infinite combos) on Ness and Lucas (these are so lulsy)
>Snake's box edge guard on Ike (Ike with his up B can't recover, and it keeps hurting him when he up B's, lol!).

A lot of such combos are very specific to damage percentages, or specific to a set character or characters. If you look for them enough, you'll find a ton. However, many if not most of such combos are banned tournaments (to various degrees).

Back when NorCal Brawl was a thing (from 2008-2011) this guy from Japan named Mike Hay taught a lot of people the Japanese secrets in 2009: camping, stalling, spacing, defense, and janky combo crap. And trust me, after that, we found all kind of combos.

DieSuperFly, an old school Melee legend back who was on top of Melee from like 2002-2005 and was on top of Brawl from 2008-2010 used to showcase that kinds of stuff like crazy, amongst a ton of characters. There are tons of Brawl players who know these things.

 

[Bedoop]

On top of that, ground moves combo into each other really easily. The ground game feels A LOT like Smash 64.

Ness, welcome back to Top-Tier-ity.
We missed you.

 

[Johnknight1]

Ness, welcome back to Top-Tier-ity.
We missed you.

Problem: Ness isn't top tier in 64, Melee, or Brawl anymore now that the fraud has been exposed.

If Ness' recovery is good, his down air works, and he still has combos, he will be AMAZING though!

Thx for that! It is really useful info! From the way you put it it seems as though they are trying to take the best things from previous smash bros games and combine it into this one. Would you say that is true?

I think that's what they are going for, and they are mostly successful. The only thing I would hope they implement is either making lagless aerials universal to all aerials (or a set lag for all moves), making running not feel like a commitment you are tied to more than marriage and you have 48 children (dash canceling of some sort can fix this), and find more ways to punish super defensive plays (have moves push back people who shield more, or diminish shields faster).

Also do you think the reason a lot of characters seem to have buffs in their recoveries is because DI sideways is not as good this time around?

I think the characterizations of characters is a lot more unique for each character. I saw all 24 characters in the demo played and played with or against roughly 14 of them, and everyone felt super unique. They all had very specific strengths and very specific weaknesses. It was very easy to find the former, but harder to find the latter, so it made everyone feel stronger. Honestly, this sounds random but it impacts gameplay a lot, but each character felt like the most unique version of them yet. Even Luigi and Toon Link felt totally different despite no move changes.

As for the "buffs", everyone has more KO potential due to the hitstun air dodge dealio from Brawl being gone, the lack of horizontal DI (vertical DI is still there), and the increased amount of hitstun. All these add to easier KO's and likely more KO's.

Honestly if Smash 4 doesn't have camping issues or super defensive battles (nothing wrong with the latter; defensive battles can be EPIC LIKE THIS!!!), I think 5 stock matches may become the standard actually!

 

[Yodude57]

Problem: Ness isn't top tier in 64, Melee, or Brawl anymore now that the fraud has been exposed.

If Ness' recovery is good, his down air works, and he still has combos, he will be AMAZING though!

I think that's what they are going for, and they are mostly successful. The only thing I would hope they implement is either making lagless aerials universal to all aerials (or a set lag for all moves), making running not feel like a commitment you are tied to more than marriage and you have 48 children (dash canceling of some sort can fix this), and find more ways to punish super defensive plays (have moves push back people who shield more, or diminish shields faster).

I think the characterizations of characters is a lot more unique for each character. I saw all 24 characters in the demo played and played with or against roughly 14 of them, and everyone felt super unique. They all had very specific strengths and very specific weaknesses. It was very easy to find the former, but harder to find the latter, so it made everyone feel stronger. Honestly, this sounds random but it impacts gameplay a lot, but each character felt like the most unique version of them yet. Even Luigi and Toon Link felt totally different despite no move changes.

As for the "buffs", everyone has more KO potential due to the hitstun air dodge dealio from Brawl being gone, the lack of horizontal DI (vertical DI is still there), and the increased amount of hitstun. All these add to easier KO's and likely more KO's.

Honestly if Smash 4 doesn't have camping issues or super defensive battles (nothing wrong with the latter; defensive battles can be EPIC LIKE THIS!!!), I think 5 stock matches may become the standard actually!

Sweet thx for responding! I have another question and this might be just a personal opinion type answer but do you think that the recoveries were buffed so that there is more of an off-ledge air game?

 

[Johnknight1]

I have another question and this might be just a personal opinion type answer but do you think that the recoveries were buffed so that there is more of an off-ledge air game?

I think the vertical DI wasn't nerfed, but it is very similar to Brawl. I think the reason it is kept that way is so there is more focus on the ledge game, and with the lack of horizontal DI that was kind of necessary for such high recoveries.

However, from what I can tell, it's a little wonky with the edge game right now. They haven't quite reached that apex point with recovery IMO, but I think they're a lot closer than they were with Brawl.

I love the new grab system, and honestly (the M2K edge is gone, lol), I want to see this become a new focus of the meta game at high level play.

It can make the recovery, edge hogging/guarding, and stage defense gameplay so unique from past games, as well as super awesome in a brand new way smash has never really taken.

 

[Yodude57]

I think the vertical DI wasn't nerfed, but it is very similar to Brawl. I think the reason it is kept that way is so there is more focus on the ledge game, and with the lack of horizontal DI that was kind of necessary for such high recoveries.

However, from what I can tell, it's a little wonky with the edge game right now. They haven't quite reached that apex point with recovery IMO, but I think they're a lot closer than they were with Brawl.

I love the new grab system, and honestly (the M2K edge is gone, lol), I want to see this become a new focus of the meta game at high level play.

It can make the recovery, edge hogging/guarding, and stage defense gameplay so unique from past games, as well as super awesome in a brand new way smash has never really taken.

As long as it is better than brawl I'm happy! Considering that's the only one I've gotten the opportunity to play *sigh*. I'm so glad I decided to pre-order ssb for 3ds!

 

[san.]

Ike can chaingrab every character on walls from 0 up to kill percents + an uptilt finish or other followup. We'll definitely have to see how robust the ledge mechanics are, and hopefully there won't be too many ways to exploit that system.

It's hard to say how the final result will look like with so many characters missing, but speeding up some of the slower characters is a nice step forward. I hope the developers continue giving a variety of uses to single moves.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

>Bowser can chain grab by grab releasing on Wario, and it is an infinite on a wall until Wario jump releases.
>Dedede chain grabs anyone as heavy as Marth on up with his down throw. Dedede can also chain grab against a wall infinitely.
>Ice Climbers chain grabs. They can literally infinite grab the entire roster when both Ice Climbers are present.
>Fox can forward throw dash cancel chain throws. There's a special super unknown one I know where you do that and involve the down air.
>Pikachu can chain grab combo with buffering out of his forward and down throws, including Fox to about 115%. Pikachu can chain grab Wario off a ledge until 120%.
>Wario chain grab combos. He can chain grab with a grab, down throw, and buffer into a turn around re-grab. He can do this Captain Falcon 0-70%, Ganondorf 0-80%, Wolf 20-220%, Falco 52-120%, Donkey Kong 0-145% (DK can jump out between 100-110%), Bowser 0-180% (you can finish this with a Wario Waft). Buffering and using it to reverse grab is a hard but useful skill to master.
>Tons of combos (including infinite combos) on Ness and Lucas (these are so lulsy)
>Snake's box edge guard on Ike (Ike with his up B can't recover, and it keeps hurting him when he up B's, lol!).

A lot of such combos are very specific to damage percentages, or specific to a set character or characters. If you look for them enough, you'll find a ton. However, many if not most of such combos are banned tournaments (to various degrees).

Back when NorCal Brawl was a thing (from 2008-2011) this guy from Japan named Mike Hay taught a lot of people the Japanese secrets in 2009: camping, stalling, spacing, defense, and janky combo crap. And trust me, after that, we found all kind of combos.

DieSuperFly, an old school Melee legend back who was on top of Melee from like 2002-2005 and was on top of Brawl from 2008-2010 used to showcase that kinds of stuff like crazy, amongst a ton of characters. There are tons of Brawl players who know these things.

The first 6 "combos" you actually described are chain grabs or grab spam related, lmao.

The ness/Lucas point isn't even specific.

Snakes ability to edge guard one character doesn't count in the slightest.

To elaborate, chain grabbing has been eliminated in Smash 4, due to extended knockback on throws, so your entire post is basically irrelevant to the validity of combos in Smash 4.

 

[Johnknight1]

The first 6 "combos" you actually described are chain grabs or grab spam related, lmao.

Chain grabs are still combos, especially with grab pummels and grab hits. After all, we do refer to Sheik's Melee chain grabs and tech chases as combos.

The ness/Lucas point isn't even specific.

You can chain grab the heck out of them by letting them get grabbed released. Also, this point is nitpicking.

Snakes ability to edge guard one character doesn't count in the slightest.

It can land a ton of hits, so thus, it is a combo that is inescapable.

To elaborate, chain grabbing has been eliminated in Smash 4, due to extended knockback on throws, so your entire post is basically irrelevant to the validity of combos in Smash 4.

Chain grabbing isn't for sure gone from Smash 4. There are a lot of grab combos. I know Samus had a Z-Air to grab to down throw combo that you can repeat over and over again, or at least something similar to that.

That kind of combo is very similar to the Fox down air to reverse grab (and repeat) combos.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Chain grabs are still combos, especially with grab pummels and grab hits. After all, we do refer to Sheik's Melee chain grabs and tech chases as combos.

You can chain grab the heck out of them by letting them get grabbed released. Also, this point is nitpicking.

It can land a ton of hits, so thus, it is a combo that is inescapable.

Chain grabbing isn't for sure gone from Smash 4. There are a lot of grab combos. I know Samus had a Z-Air to grab to down throw combo that you can repeat over and over again, or at least something similar to that.

That kind of combo is very similar to the Fox down air to reverse grab (and repeat) combos.

 

[Johnknight1]

One grab doesn't disprove my whole point, especially since buffering is in the game.

And I saw the combo with Samus with my very own eyes. I don't know the grab throw for sure, but I saw it.

To top it off, said grab throw was done by a former top 10 NorCal Brawl in the NorCal Brawl rankings.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

One grab doesn't disprove my whole point, especially since buffering is in the game.

And I saw the combo with Samus with my very own eyes. I don't know the grab throw for sure, but I saw it.

To top it off, said grab throw was done by a former top 10 NorCal Brawl in the NorCal Brawl rankings.

It's been cited by several including CT Zero himself that grabs now display KO potential, Kirby's up being an extreme example.

 

[Johnknight1]

It's been cited by several including CT Zero himself that grabs now display KO potential, Kirby's up being an extreme example.

Zero isn't the end all, be all. Smash 4 seems more tailor-made to low mains, as a lot of the same mechanics are there, only with combos.

Zero plays characters not known for these kind of advanced reverse grab buffering combos, and all of them are high tiers at worst. Compared to the old school NorCal Brawl player I was with, that's not as much experience with a lot of characters, specifically Samus, who was largely ignored in Brawl.

The player I was with (I forget his tag, but his name is Ryan; it seems I forget one or the other or both) totally knew Samus and all of those spammy projectile characters in Brawl, and is a self-admitted super hardcore camper (but he claimed he wasn't as bad as Zero, lol).

All and all, I saw firsthand what Masahiro Sakurai meant when he said Samus was the best character, because she is. HugS was wrong, and as much as I respect Hugo and appreciate my few talks with him, he was wrong. Based on Brawl and some 64 mechanics, with her reverse grab cancel mechanics, broken Z-air, and insane KO power, she was the best, without a doubt. And that grab combo was one of a few things only she could abuse.

I would dare say the Samus in Smash 3DS and WiiU demo has better combos than Samus in any version of Smash 64.