Outlook on Brawl's Dev. Since 2005 and size of content

[Croco]

Just wanted to point something out that maybe most or some of us have overlooked or have not thought about.
I was reading on Wiki and at old IGN news that the games development started late 2005.. so maybe around November or December the development began. IGN LINK
"Sakurai revealed that at E³, he was called to Iwata's room on the top floor of a Los Angeles hotel" That was E³ 2005.. IGN LINK It was also at that E³ when Satoru Iwata announced that there was going to be a new smash brothers.

So.. the game has really been in development for more then a year already.
What they really only need to do is tweak the game's engine a bit.. Melee's Engine. and then add a few new additions or make some changes..

They could use 3d models from Melee and retexture them. (Pokemon Stadium) They could also get models w/ textures from other already released or in development games from those developers. (Link's look from TP.)
They also could reuse some of the music from Melee for remade stages and for character theme songs when they win a match.
They could reuse sounds from Melee.
They could reuse animations from Melee.
They could even possibly use already made items from Melee and just tweak them a bit for Brawl.

Here's what they probably will have to do till release or have done since late 2005-
Tweak Old Characters--(Characters like Kirby will be easy to upgrade.)
Some upgraded 3D models
Some upgraded textures
Some new or upgraded animations
Some new or upgraded code
Some new or upgraded sounds

Add New characters-
New 3D Models -(Could already be made for another game.)
New Textures -(Could already be made for another game.)
New Animations
New Code
New Sounds -(Could already be made for another game.)

Tweaked Old Stages- (Pokemon Stadium)
Upgraded 3D models..
Upgraded textures..
Upgrade code
Upgraded animations

New Stages-
New 3D Models
New Textures
New Code
New Sounds
New Music

New Story Mode- ("New Robust Story Mode")
New 3D Models
New Textures
New Animation
New Stages
New Sound
New Music
New Code

New Items-
New 3d Models
New Sounds
New Animations
New Code

Game's Interface- (Menu/Selection Screens Etc.)
New Textures
New Models
New Music
New Sound
New Code

New Intro Video-
New Animations
New Sound
New 3d Models
New Textures
New Music

Trophies-(Might happen.. some old trophies could be brought back)
New Models -(Could already be made for another game.)
New Textures -(Could already be made for another game.)

Game Play-
New Sounds
New Animations
New Music
New Code

---------

So what I am really trying to get at is they maybe already have some or most what is needed to develop Brawl, and that is if HAL Laboratory has given Sakurai's development team everything from Melee and if they could even grab some other finished work from other 1st, 2nd, and 3rd party game developers. So making some tweaks and adding some new features isn't as difficult as making a completely new game from scratch.. That would of taken longer and maybe even a extra year or two or more.

What we saw in the first trailer could of just been just a small handful of information.. not even as much to what they really even completed. When we first saw the 2nd trailer it is possible that double the amount of characters we saw could of been almost completed or finished. Though they decided not to show them to spoil the game or even kill some of the excitement. Note that we even saw the gameplay in the 1st trailer.. not just only a fmv sequence.

We also do not have any clue how large Sakurai's development team actually is.. It could even be double or triple the size then the one SSB:M had due to how popular and how much the game is in demand.

I am really saying most of this to anyone who thinks the game may even be delayed till 2008 or what we saw in the first trailer was completed so far or even if the game might just have a little more then melee. We may even get more content for the game then what most of us really expect.

Imagine if the game really had more then 40 characters? maybe even 50?
The game Mortal Kombat: Armageddon had a total of 62 characters.. and the game wasn't that seriously developed. It even had a racing mini game, large side quest, and create a fighter. The game was a little good to some but it was sorta disappointing to some others.. BUT what I am trying to say is.. it had allot of content. Brawl could be the same way with allot of content.. Even the 12cm Wii discs hold more information then the 8cm GC discs (1.5 gigabytes) and maybe Melee didn't even take up all of that information on the GC disc. PSP UMDs are around 1.8gbs, which is a newer technology.. this means that the Wii disc could be up to 4-5gbs.

I did some research.. looked searched some torrents and on the p2p software emule for illegal SSBM Cd ISOs.. etc. Well I came to a final conclusion.. the CD image size was around 1-1.3gbs.
Which leaves about 200mbs left over to fill the disc..
I cannot understand why anyone could be stubborn and say "The game WILL have less then 40 or even just 30 characters total." This person could be correct and I could be wrong.. but you never know.

Now thanks if you read through my essay of a topic/theory..
and sorry for any grammar mistakes..
Please discuss or "argue" if possible lol

 

[FzGhouL]

I'm pretty sure they started everything from scratch. Many of the old features will be re-written to have less bugs, have more dynamic physics, and to be more balanced.

Coding a Wii disc may be different, or they realized improvements they needed an overhaul.
In any case, if they used the same exact engine, it would be moderately disappointing.

 

[Croco]

I'm pretty sure they started everything from scratch. Many of the old features will be re-written to have less bugs, have more dynamic physics, and to be more balanced.

Coding a Wii disc may be different, or they realized improvements they needed an overhaul.
In any case, if they used the same exact engine, it would be moderately disappointing.

You know they can change the engine right? update it..
When they already have a engine that is meant for smash brothers.. why would they scrap it and start over?

 

[Malificent]

Every team scraps their engines in one way or another to make a new one. Halo and Halo2 used two completely different engines. Most the Unreal games used different engines. Both Halif-Life games used new engines. Yes I do understand where you are coming from, if they used the same engine and tweeked it, the game would be done alot faster. But in some sort of techincal aspect wouldnt the game be some what the same?

Tweak Old Characters--(Characters like Kirby will be easy to upgrade.)
Some upgraded 3D models
Some upgraded textures
Some new or upgraded animations
Some new or upgraded code
Some new or upgraded sounds

Add New characters-
New 3D Models -(Could already be made for another game.)
New Textures -(Could already be made for another game.)
New Animations
New Code
New Sounds -(Could already be made for another game.)

Tweaked Old Stages- (Pokemon Stadium)
Upgraded 3D models..
Upgraded textures..
Upgrade code
Upgraded animations

New Stages-
New 3D Models
New Textures
New Code
New Sounds
New Music

New Story Mode- ("New Robust Story Mode")
New 3D Models
New Textures
New Animation
New Stages
New Sound
New Music
New Code

New Items-
New 3d Models
New Sounds
New Animations
New Code

Game's Interface- (Menu/Selection Screens Etc.)
New Textures
New Models
New Music
New Sound
New Code

New Intro Video-
New Animations
New Sound
New 3d Models
New Textures
New Music

Trophies-(Might happen.. some old trophies could be brought back)
New Models -(Could already be made for another game.)
New Textures -(Could already be made for another game.)

Game Play-
New Sounds
New Animations
New Music
New Code

Even if they do all of this. Wouldnt it be easier making a whole new engine from scrap rather than debugging or tweeking the engine? Granted I dont know much about the production of a video game engine, but i know it isnt cheap.

 

[Croco]

Every team scraps their engines in one way or another to make a new one. Halo and Halo2 used two completely different engines. Most the Unreal games used different engines. Both Halif-Life games used new engines. Yes I do understand where you are coming from, if they used the same engine and tweeked it, the game would be done alot faster. But in some sort of techincal aspect wouldnt the game be some what the same?




Even if they do all of this. Wouldnt it be easier making a whole new engine from scrap rather than debugging or tweeking the engine? Granted I dont know much about the production of a video game engine, but i know it isnt cheap.

Think of it this way..
The Unreal Engine for games like the Unreal Tournament series has evolved over time but is exactly the same engine it started as but updated over time to coordinate with new games, new graphics, and new technology.
The newest unreal engine (3.0) ran the game "Gears of War."
Recently announced, SquareEnix has come together with Epic to use the Unreal engine for their future games.
The Unreal Engine has been under development for years..
So why would Sakurai and his development team drop a already working engine and not update it?
It saves them time to make more content and making the game better then Melee. It even saves them money..

The only real reason they should probably make a new engine if they where jumping dramatically to next-gen graphics for the game.
From the cube to the Wii isn't such a dramatic jump just as from a Pc game engine from 1998 to 2004. (Half-Life had to do this.. GoldSrc to Source engine.)
The Unreal engine didn't have to deal with such a huge leap.. but it evolved over time.

I do understand that you might know most of this already.. BUT the real dramatic changes I have seen for game engines are just for the graphics, physics, and Ai.
The engine used for Melee isn't too flawed. How much do they really need to seriously change?
Does Brawl need rag doll effects for the characters? Not really..
Is there that much of a leap from Melee to Brawl graphics wise? A little.. but not too much..
New Ai? Thats not to difficult to script in the already existing engine..

 

[Wrench]

I don't see this happening

 

[Croco]

I don't see this happening

What do you not see happening?

 

[Sensai]

Interesting idea...it's always good to have hope.

But the thing is, what you're saying seems to be mostly like a modified version of Melee: a 'patch' if you will. I don't think Sakurai wants that.

But good thoughts, either way. I had forgotten that it was being built in '05...that's good.

 

[thevinnymac]

This is from Sakurai's blog at Smash Bros. Dojo.

"But, the code and development environment of Super Smash Bros. Melee, which I had developed in the past, was offered. Having this versus not having this means the efficiency of the development changes dramatically, so I'm thankful."

That doesn't necessarily say that they're keeping the same engine, but I would be inclined to think so.

I'm not sure how far in development SSBM is since Sakurai did joke that they basically spent their entire development time preparing the trailer shown at E3 2006. Of course, doing that created several levels and characters (all the stuff shown in the second trailer) but I think it's quite possible that what we saw in the trailer was all they had in the game at the time.

If I had to guess, I'd put them at a little over half done, and I'm betting they'll finish around October, giving them a month to press the game and build up supplies for release in November.

 

[The Bino]

Basically i gotta agree wit VinnyMac... but if u look at the games that come out it normally takes a game around 2 full years to develop... depending on what they are doing to it... excluding sport games... they are just updated and tweaked versions of they're past games

Now Smash is a totally different type of game, and Sakurai said he is completely revamping every character and building them from the ground up... im assuming he is doing this because there are way too many clones in Melee and he knows this, he wants this game to be as perfect as possible and im applauding his attempts... and being how Sakurai stated the development had started in in October of 2005... add 2 years and that would mean that the game would more or less be completed by October 2007, and this game would probably be their big Holiday Season for '07 as Melee was for '01

 

[Chepe]

Why wouldnt they use the same engine? They used the same engine as the original Smash to create Melee... They just modified the characters and added some new movements and such. Thats what Brawl will do too... Speed moderation, aerial combat, balance, all the stuff that Sakurai is planning is just add ons to the Smash engine from Melee... Sakurai himself even said they have the development kits from Melee...

The thing is, most of you think that just because they have the engines and most characters, that they dont have to do much anymore. Well, Im betting new characters and stages, balancing, aerial combat, speed moderation, other adjustments, and online capability are just some of the things that have ensured this game takes longer to make than Melee. But, even I am expecting a 2007 release, but it will be in Fall or Winter for sure...

 

[Croco]

Why wouldnt they use the same engine? They used the same engine as the original Smash to create Melee... They just modified the characters and added some new movements and such. Thats what Brawl will do too... Speed moderation, aerial combat, balance, all the stuff that Sakurai is planning is just add ons to the Smash engine from Melee... Sakurai himself even said they have the development kits from Melee...

The thing is, most of you think that just because they have the engines and most characters, that they dont have to do much anymore. Well, Im betting new characters and stages, balancing, aerial combat, speed moderation, other adjustments, and online capability are just some of the things that have ensured this game takes longer to make than Melee. But, even I am expecting a 2007 release, but it will be in Fall or Winter for sure...

Well at least someone else agrees with me..
I believe they are remaking most of the characters, stages, etc.. of course Pokemon stadium was there.. (looks a bit upgraded then remade.)

I still can't understand why a number of people disagree with me when it comes to the engine.. Why trash it and redo it? when they can just update it a bit?

 

[thevinnymac]

I'm not sure what "rebuilding the characters from the ground up" means since it looks like they all have the same moves, and maybe even the same animations. I imagine the properties of the attacks will change, kind of like going from Mario to Dr. Mario, but that doesn't seem to fit the description. Using Mario as an example, we've seen all of his special moves except the cape (I think). I wonder what the difference is?

 

[petre]

maybe he was just talking about the looks...the first thing they show in the first trailer is the physical differences between the old and the new characters...

 

[KevinM]

we're not sure of anything in brawl yet, they might be remaking a lot of the moves and just showing off graphics people, just saying that too people who say we know all their moves. See what i'm saying

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I fail to see how people are making such a huge assumption...


thevinnymac,you must understand that companies do not show every possible detail and configuration they have worked on in trailers.Doing so renderes the hype tactic udeless,and could possibly decrease sales...

An example:If you recieved a Brawl Demo for Free and it had everything on it,what would be the point of the purcase.

Companies don't tend to show alot of information for a future game release,let's just wait ans see what happens.

 

[AceMoney]

****, another post behind eternal phoenix fire. Anyways, yeah. There's no reason for them to scrap the engine. It would take way longer for them to rebuild an engine than to simply fix and upgrade. If everytime someone made a sequal, they made an entirely new engine not based on anything from the last one, then we would have a situation like Resident Evil 4 that took foooooorever to come out. In other words, about 4 years of development for each game. Anyways, like a good magician, Nintendo will never show you all of its tricks. No release date yet? Hm, sounds familiar. *has a TP trailer flashback* If nintendo shows us a finished game or all they're going to do with the game, why release it? No one but the faithful will rush to the store to get it because everyone will have made opinions on the gameplay and characters already. So yeah..time to be patient and wait.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

****, another post behind eternal phoenix fire. Anyways, yeah. There's no reason for them to scrap the engine. It would take way longer for them to rebuild an engine than to simply fix and upgrade. If everytime someone made a sequal, they made an entirely new engine not based on anything from the last one, then we would have a situation like Resident Evil 4 that took foooooorever to come out. In other words, about 4 years of development for each game. Anyways, like a good magician, Nintendo will never show you all of its tricks. No release date yet? Hm, sounds familiar. *has a TP trailer flashback* If nintendo shows us a finished game or all they're going to do with the game, why release it? No one but the faithful will rush to the store to get it because everyone will have made opinions on the gameplay and characters already. So yeah..time to be patient and wait.

.....Irony?

 

[AxemRed]

Recently I've been looking for information regarding the upcoming entry in the Fire Emblem series, Goddess of Dawn (Wii), and I think I may have found a correlation between it and Smash Bros. Brawl. I know Wikipidia isn't the most reliable source, but it has Path of Radiance's release date in the U.S. listed at Oct 17, 2005, which sounds about right to me. Assuming the sequel is being created by the same team, development probably started around the same time as Brawl did (late 2005). Judging from recent news, such as the last issue of Nintendo Power, the sequel looks to have an updated system similar to its predecessor. Sound familiar?

Now, as I understand, Goddess of Dawn is set to to release in Japan within a couple of months, with the U.S. version following shortly afterwards. That would place the development time at a little under two years. I don't pretend to know anything about exactly how a game is developed, but considering that Goddess of Dawn is 44 chapters long compared to Path of Radiance's 29, has new "multi-level" stages, and is allegedly adding even more factors to consider during battles (such as character height and geography, according to Wikipidia), I imagine that the Fire Emblem team has arguably had just as much work to do as the Smash Bros. team. If we also assume that Sakurai is intending to do a simultaneous launch for Brawl, we could be seeing both of these games as early as Summer.

Another note: In the U.S., we've had about as much information on Fire Emblem as we've had for Brawl- that is, not too much at all. Just one gameplay video and a couple of trailers. Just something to consider.

Oh, and we know practically nothing about Super Paper Mario either, but that's apparently coming out in April. I don't think it'll get pushed back again. Sorry for talking for so long.

Edit: Wow, I keep on thinking of stuff to add...Anyway, did anyone else find it odd that when the first Brawl trailer came out, Nintendo Power decided to do a very short piece on each announced character, but only one each month? Oddly enough, that means they'll finish in March (April if they separate Samus and Zero-Suit Samus), the same month the GDC is being held. I know this might just be coincidence, but we are talking about the magazine that said it would be nice for Pit to be in another game the month before the first trailer was released. I think we'll at least be getting some sort of news by April latest.

 

[Deleted member]

That bit about Pit got my attention Axem.

Keep us posted on other things they say, ok?