Optimizing R.O.B. : Bread & Butter, Strings, Combos, Follow-Ups, Set-Ups & Conversions

[Syde7]

Introduction & Purpose:
Smash 4 is a game that revolves heavily around "Bread & Butter" combos & strings at low to moderate percentages and read (or DI) dependent confirmations after set-ups.

To those unfamiliar, the term "Bread & Butter" is defined as: "a person's livelihood or main source of income, typically as earned by routine work." To put that into Smash terms, they are the things which are mostly simple (though can be somewhat advanced) that a character relies on as the foundation of their game, the 'staples' if you will.

The purpose of this thread is to help us ROBs collect, organize, and properly display the various combos, strings, follow-ups, etc that are available to ROB so that we, as players can optimize our play at every possible turn. The initial purpose of this thread is to catalog as many pertinent strings, combos, etc... but will also include various common (and less common) and effective set-ups and conversion options.

Many of the strings, combos, and set-ups that are available to ROB (or any character) is largeley dependent on weight classes and percentages. Of course, even these percentages can be skewed and inconsistent due to stale move negation and the rage mechanic. That is to say, Combo X may only work on lightweights until 30%, but will work on heavyweights until 70%; Combo Z may start to be used at 40% on lightweights, but 80% on heavyweights; Combo F may (lead into a) KO on heavyweights at 130%, but may (lead into a) KO on lightweights at 90%. As such, when these factors come into play, so that we are all on the same page/have the same understanding of information, I strongly advise using the Weight Class Table below.

Weight Class Table:
The information was pulled directly from here, which was posted by user Aerodrome on these very boards. Weight class values, iirc were assigned by using a certain move (what it was escapes me) to KO the various characters from a certain point on a certain stage. They are used mostly for comparison with one another, that is to say they are relative to one another and the value shouldn't be considered on its own. They may not be 100% accurate, but serve as a good guide for discussion and categorical purposes. If anyone has updated information, please don't hesitate to post it.

Spoiler

|WEIGHT CLASS TABLE|
RANK | CHARACTER | WEIGHT VALUE
SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT||
1|Bowser|128
2|Donkey King|122
3|King DeDeDe|119
4|Charizard|115
5|Ganondorf|112
HEAVYWEIGHT||
6-7|Bowser Jr.|108
6-7|Samus|108
8-9|Ike|107
8-9|Wario|107
10|ROB|106
11-13|Captain Falcon|104
11-13|Link|104
11-13|Yoshi|104
14-15|Shulk|104
14-15|Megaman|104
16|Mii Fighters (Default Height/Weight)|100
17|Lucario|99
MIDDLEWEIGHT||
18-19|Mario|98
18-19|Dr. Mario|98
20-21|Villager|97
20-21|Luigi|97
22-24|Wii Fit Trainer|96
22-24|Pit|96
22-24|Dark Pit|96
25-27|Robin|95
25-27|Sonic|95
25-27|Pacman|95
28-29|Greninja|94
28-29|Ness|94
30-31|Toon Link|93
30-31|Diddy Kong|93
32-33|Palutena|91
32-33|Duck Hunt|91
34-35|Marth|90
34-35|Lucina|90
36|Peach|89
FEATHERWEIGHT||
37-38|Zelda|85
37-38|Sheik|85
39-40|Falco|82
39-40|Little Mac|82
41|Zero Suit Samus|81
42|Meta Knight|80
43-45|Fox|79
43-45|Pikachu|79
43-45|Olimar|79
46|Rosalina|78
47|Kirby|77
48|Mr. Game & Watch|75
BALLOONWEIGHT||
49|Mewtwo|72
50|Jigglypuff|68

Percent Categories:
As wonderful as it would be to get exact percentages, that's really an unrealistic expectation given the wide array of variables that can alter the effective percentages (such as the rage mechanic and stale move negation). So, in an effort to simplify things, it may be easier to break these percentages into effective ranges. For the sake of making sure we are all on the same page, refer to the table below:

Spoiler

PERCENT CLASS | PERCENTAGE RANGE
Low|0 to approx. 15%
Low-Mid|15% to approx 30%
Mid|30% to 50%
High-Mid|50% to 70%
High Percent|>80%

If anyone disagrees with how these ranges are broken down, don't hesitate to let me know. If several people feel that the ranges should be altered, I'd be happy to do so.

When detailing the various combos strings and their applicable/effective percent ranges, please refer to the weight table grouping. If there is a marked percentage difference between characters within the same class (over >10-15%), or if there are characters within that class that are excluded from the combo/string working on, please notate that whenever possible.

Finally, if there is a percentage where the string is guaranteed (thus, a combo), please notate that if possible. If the string can still work up to a certain percentage, but is dependent on DI or an airdodge, please notate that if possible.

I know that may sound like a LOT of work, and I'll admit it is. But, all of the information isn't required, its just extremely helpful.

 

[Syde7]

RESERVED FOR FUTURE USE

I guess I'll get some stuff started. I don't have a lot of time to go into percentages (don't happen to have them handy, so whilst Im off, if someone could fill in the percents, that'd be swell), so consider this a prompt to get the ball rolling:

D-tilt -> (Trip) -> Grab
D-tilt -> (Trip) -> Shoot Gyro

 

[Crome]

RESERVED FOR FUTURE USE

I guess I'll get some stuff started. I don't have a lot of time to go into percentages (don't happen to have them handy, so whilst Im off, if someone could fill in the percents, that'd be swell), so consider this a prompt to get the ball rolling:

D-tilt -> (Trip) -> Grab
D-tilt -> (Trip) -> Shoot Gyro

So with this prompt, you just want us to find the percentages it works at, or do you just want us to discuss these combos?

Personally, I love dtilt>trip>gyro. At low-mid they don't go far and the gyro is a dash attack away. However I do feel going for the DA is unsafe, but I probably just need to practice it.

 

[Syde7]

So with this prompt, you just want us to find the percentages it works at, or do you just want us to discuss these combos?

Personally, I love dtilt>trip>gyro. At low-mid they don't go far and the gyro is a dash attack away. However I do feel going for the DA is unsafe, but I probably just need to practice it.

Either/or. Finding percents would be a good start (but I can try myself prolly tomorrow). Or, discuss... either/or

 

[Mister Eric]

i could really help on this. please dont let me be lazy on this. harass the beep out of me. dont let me john out.

 

[PUK]

Dtilt: trip effect ends at 66% on sheik/Zelda. Until then a trip leads to:
Usmash (good) : 22% and good positionning
Fdmash sourspot (bad) : 11% and reset to neutral
Grab (good) : 13-35 more or less depending of the choosen option
Side b default (good) : up to 20% if all hits connect, reset to neutral
Dattack (meh): 12%
All are true combo
Between 66 and 110% Dtilt push the opponent
From 110 to 300% Dtilt puts in tumble, and up to 130% a failed tech guarentees a JC Usmash.

UTilt: two hits: the first hit seems to have set KB, and doesn't combo with nothing but the second hit. Use it to snipe DJ with Uair and gains a very good situation

Ftilt: found nothing



From 100% to 128% more or less, Bthrow>uncharged laser
From 120% to 145%: Fthrow>uncharged laser
These two are considered true combo, and will kill from SV platform, or if bad recovery.
Z drop gyro will true combo into Usmash at various percent, including kill percent.
Everything tested on Zelda (lightweight floaty) and shiek (same weight fast faller)

 

[Crome]

Around 110% (on Zelda), dtilt>failed tech>JC Usmash seems guarented
From 100% to 128% more or less, Bthrow>uncharged laser
From 120% to 145%: Fthrow>uncharged laser
These two are considered true combo, and will kill from SV platform, or if bad recovery.
Z drop gyro will true combo into Usmash at various percent, including kill percent.
Everything tested on Zelda

Why Zelda? Just random, or is there a reason?

 

[Syde7]

I did some labwork late last night. It was rather informal, more or less "let me just sit down and throw stuff together and see what could potentially work". Wrote down the ones that seemed like they could work (either as a true combo, string, or dependent on reading DI or baiting an action such as an aerial or airdodge). If someone could confirm, that would be super duper appreciated! Finally, many of these strings are combinations/extensions of simpler ones. I put them as separate items so that they can be tested individually. Once that's done, I'll edit the OP with some sort of notation that they can be optionally extended via various means for maximum damage output.

Testing Conditions:

1. Training Mode
2. Omega BF as my testing stage
3. Donkey Kong as training dummy (So findings may work on other super heavyweights / heavyweights)
4. No 2nd party to attempt to DI, Airdodge, Jump
5. Primarily focused on low % combos (with some low-mid / mid %'s), but I did not record all of the percentages. If nothing else, hopefully this post can serve as a blueprint that folks can use to test vs. other heavyweights, at various percents, and also additional weight classes.
6. Did not record total damage done. I know that stale moves plays a part in this, but knowing the rough (within 3-6%) amount of damage a combo/string/whatever can do can be super important. ("Will this combo bring him up to a percent where x combo won't work, so I don't need to try that one if this one is successful")
7. Some strings may require buffering, while others may benefit from it (with the buffering being optional). These are notated accordingly. Naturally, taking advantage of any IASA frames / buffering if possible will help to minimize the time needed to close the gap an opponent in hitstun and lead into the next move before an opponent can break hitstun (thus helping to confirm the string) but the offset is that if you kind of wind up 'committing' to a direction or action and can't quite adapt mid-string.

U-Throw → U-Smash
U-Throw → U-Smash → F-air
U-Throw → U-Smash → (Buffer) Jump → U-Air
U-Throw → U-Smash → (Buffer) Jump → U-Air → Double Jump → U-Air
U-Throw → U-Smash → (?Buffer?) → U-Tilt → (?Buffer Short Hop?) Jump → U-air → Double Jump → U-Air
U-Throw → U-Smash → (?Buffer?) → U-Tilt → U-Tilt → (?Buffer Short Hop?) Jump → U-air → Double Jump → U-Air
U-Throw → F-Smash
U-Throw → U-Tilt
U-Throw → U-tilt → U-Air
U-Throw → U-Tilt → U-Tilt
U-Throw → U-Tilt → U-Tilt → U-Air
U-Throw → U-Tilt → N-Air
U-Throw → N-Air → F-air
U-Throw → B-air

D-Throw → U-Air (Can extend the range this works at by buffering a jump / inputting the jump during the IASA frames)
D-Throw → N-Air → Double Jump → U-Air (seems to work at low to low-mid %)

(Short Hop) Falling U-air → F-Smash (Requires good reaction time to see what direction they will travel / land or a read on their DI; this may be dependent on which way ROB is facing when the falling U-air connects, or which of the hits they take as the last one).

F-Throw → Dash Attack → F-tilt
F-Throw → Dash Attack → D-tilt (Lock if no tech) → Anything (Seems to work only at low %, even against superheavyweights)
F-Throw → Full Charged Gyro Shot

B-Throw → Full Charged Gyro Shot

N-air → Full Jump → U-air
N-air → U-Smash
N-air → F-Smash
N-air → D-Smash
N-air → U-air
N-air → Grab → U-Throw → U-Smash → U-air
N-air → Grab → D-Throw → U-Air

U-Tilt → U-Smash
U-Tilt → U-Smash (Seems to work at high percents, but somewhat below percents where U-Smash will KO from middle of Omega Battlefield)

If I recall correctly, thrown & dropped items do not suffer any effects from stale move negation or the rage mechanics. If that is true, then we can assume that any set-ups that begin with a gyro throw or drop will be feasible at a consistent percentage, although the Follow Up may be affected by DI, Jumping, Airdodging while the subsequent moves may be affected by stale moves, rage mechanic, DI, Jumping, Airdodging, or any/all of the aforementioned.

Jump Cancelled Item Toss (Down) → F-tilt
Jump Cancelled Item Toss (Down) → Grab
Jump Cancelled Item Toss (Down) → F-Smash
Jump Cancelled Item Toss (Down) → D-tilt
Jump Cancelled Item Toss (Down) → Dash Attack
Jump Cancelled Item Toss (Down) → F-air (Mid-High %, iirc)
Jump Cancelled Item Toss (Down) → N-air (Mid-High % iirc)

Jump → (Hard) Gyro Throw (Down) → N-air
Jump → (Hard) Gyro Throw (Down) → F-air
Jump → (Hard) Gyro Throw (Down) → B-air

- IIRC, the gyro drop needs to happen closer to the back (or whatever part is furthest away from ROB) to work​

Jump → (Hard) Gyro Throw (Down) → D-air (Soft Z-drop may work as well, I just had more consistent results with hard throw)

- Can lead into a spike at certain percents (can't remember for certain what range) when close to the edge.
- After that, the D-air doesn't seem to hit the spike sweetspot, usually gets the hit that pops opponent up.
- Still could be utilized if used on a platform like T&C, SV, or low ceiling stages with a decent sized plat for an off-the-top KO​

Jump → Z-Drop Gyro → U-Smash (Hard Throw Down may work as well, I had more success with z-drops)
Jump → Z-Drop Gyro → F-Smash
Jump → Z-Drop Gyro → D-Smash

Ledgetrump → U-air (Needs confirmation/testing for sure)

 

[Mister Eric]

If you want to test these before I get around to it, feel free (I use these all the time btw):
-Jab1 > dtilt > running upsmash if tech is missed. (high %s)
-Gyro toss > laser
-Falling up air on grounded opponent (don't finish up air) > fair
-Falling up air on grounded opponent (don't finish up air) > dsmash
-Falling up air on grounded opponent (don't finish up air) > jab
-Falling up air on grounded opponent (don't finish up air) > uptilt
-Falling up air on grounded opponent (don't finish up air) > maybe upsmash
(This one is tricky cause it seems a bit random which way they're going to pop out. I know it's not random yet, but I haven't sat down with it and observed it properly. I just do it in the moment during tournament and it's served me well. Definitely one of my favorite followups)
-up tilt > jab1 > jab2
-up tilt > jab1 > dtilt > grab/dash attack
-up tilt > up air
-up tilt > up smash
-FF auto cancel nair > up tilt > up air
-hard toss gyro > instatoss gyro

Jump → (Hard) Gyro Throw (Down) → D-air (Soft Z-drop may work as well, I just had more consistent results with hard throw)

- Can lead into a spike at certain percents (can't remember for certain what range) when close to the edge.
- After that, the D-air doesn't seem to hit the spike sweetspot, usually gets the hit that pops opponent up.
- Still could be utilized if used on a platform like T&C, SV, or low ceiling stages with a decent sized plat for an off-the-top KO​

I live for these. Can lead to a spike at any %. It's just, they won't die until a certain % and every char will vary. But get one of these at around 45+ and it's gg.
You're just talking about something like this right (minus the footstool)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xGkEkVUwXE
I average like 2 or 3 a tournament. And a good handful per stream session. I have yet to test %s tho, but, from experience, a dair will spike if positioned right. Z drop or hard toss will suffice. Make your decision off of your opponent's behavior patterns. This can also be used to cover rolls too if spaced right. Just need to delay the dair, and it won't work at super early %s because the knock back won't send him to you yet. Wouldn't spike kill anyways. I know I'm rambling a bit, my apologies.

Guess you could add a footstool in there to make things more spicy. This can actually cause the combo to not work tho. I think they can DI the footstool a certain way to get sourspotted or possibly not hit at all. So just go for the spike if possible.

I need to compile all my completions of this move. I could have like a 5 min gyrospike montage lol.





sorry for the mess. so so so many followups with rob. will be back with more, promise. got other stuff to do atm.

 

[Syde7]

Also guys, I am totally unable to test any of this stuff with a second party. So, all I can do atm is just kinda go off of memory of what has worked for me + what I discover in training mode. The most I could do would be use my turbo controller to have the CPU spam jump to see if they can jump or airdodge out (but that's not taking DI into account).

EDIT: Once I get some broad confirmation (based on weight classes) I'll organize what data we have into the OP or 2nd post. Afterward, I'll work on getting character specific combos/percentages (similar to what @ PUK did with Zelda.)

EDIT#2: Can @GwJ edit the title of this thread to take the "n" out of Bread?? plz & ty.

 

[Crome]

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