Optimizing Metaknight's tech chase?

[ConeZ]

Alright, so I figured I would post this pre-emptively to start a discussion about optimizing Metaknight's punish game much like the way Melee players look to optimize theirs.

Anyways cutting to the chase, (lel) I wanted to gauge the interest in some sort of collaborative effort in optimizing Metaknight's punish game specifically off of his tech chase, as it is, in my opinion, potentially his strongest asset. And I don't mean what cool **** can you do off of tech chases, I mean it'd be nice if we could have somewhere documented what *generally are the optimal followups in what situations.

I realize there would be a bit more work needed than in melee for this as there are more matchups, BUT I do believe MK can reaction tech chase at the very least mostly every character to some degree whether it be low percent only or possibly spacie-level zero to death level.

Which leads me to my next 2 questions:
1) Does anyone else have any data on this already?
2) Who else would want to work on this as well? Unfortunately, as I do not have a PM setup for personal use, my own progress will be limited outside of theorycrafting and learning/ analyzing frame data and occasional use of my friend's wii perhaps because my other friends likely wouldn't like me stealing the setup to practice perfecting tech chasing while they just sat there.

On an ending note, this'll be something I'm planning on spending more time on soon (I have a job and a girlfriend, so devoting my time to nerding out on tech chasing is hard to justify), but I wanted to check to see if anyone else was also interested in the topic before I dove into the world of frame data/ optimal punishes by myself.

 

[9bit]

Meta Knight's punish game is something that has had me troubled for a while now. I'm not sure it's very good (or maybe that it isn't very interesting [up-air up-air up-air up-air up-air up-air]).

Off down throw tech chasing you have a great ground speed to get another grab, or you can side-B/down-B if they are too far away, or maybe down-tilt in certain situations. But my main concern is that MK's punish game, or more specifically his combo game, revolves around up-air and not much else. He has no "stomp" move that can pop someone up / mash them down to the ground.

The more I think about it the more I think MK might be a hit-and-run type character, mixed with a bit of spacing and juggling type. He has to be very careful overall.

This might not be a thing. I am very drunk right now. Like, I'm telling you I've had more than 15 drinks. Probably closer to 20. So maybe all this **** I just tried to say is wrong.

 

[ConeZ]

Meta Knight's punish game is something that has had me troubled for a while now. I'm not sure it's very good (or maybe that it isn't very interesting [up-air up-air up-air up-air up-air up-air]).

Off down throw tech chasing you have a great ground speed to get another grab, or you can side-B/down-B if they are too far away, or maybe down-tilt in certain situations. But my main concern is that MK's punish game, or more specifically his combo game, revolves around up-air and not much else. He has no "stomp" move that can pop someone up / mash them down to the ground.

The more I think about it the more I think MK might be a hit-and-run type character, mixed with a bit of spacing and juggling type. He has to be very careful overall.

This might not be a thing. I am very drunk right now. Like, I'm telling you I've had more than 15 drinks. Probably closer to 20. So maybe all this **** I just tried to say is wrong.

Alright, so MK is NOT a hit and run type character, and as you said you were drunk or whatever, so I am gonna mostly disregard that stuff since it was off topic.

My post was to gauge interest in cataloguing specific frame data and option select for his tech chasing game to benefit the MK boards as a whole.

 

[Krumpberry]

Just wondering, should I JC all my grabs with MK?

 

[ConeZ]

Just wondering, should I JC all my grabs with MK?

I am FAIRLY certain (don't quote me on this), but I think MK has a boost grab as well. If you can reach them with a JC grab, yes. It is better, but if you need to, learning to boost grab should also be an option.

 

[Jolteon]

MK's dash grab is way better at tech chasing than his JC grab is, would recommend just using that. Not sure if his actual boost grab is better than his dash grab is, but they feel really similar to me and I haven't had any issues using either of them to regrab on reaction.

Both dthrow and bthrow seem to work fine providing their fall speed is high enough, so when I get to the edge I'll opt to bthrow in many cases. For dthrow I just do dthrow -> walk forward (or dthrow -> dash -> instant wd at mid % and higher) and for bthrow I just do bthrow -> run -> crouch. If they DI inward just regrab before they land, if they non tech you can either use ftilt1 as a reset, or dtilt -> regrab if you know they're ASDI'ing upward to avoid the ftilt reset, OR you can wait and react to their get-up options (shieldgrab beats both non roll options and dash grab catches the rolls). From my experience, you can react to non techs with Dimensional Cape as well, which is good at killing percents for obvious reasons, but I'm not 100% sure if it's possible to do that on reaction or if its just an impulsive reaction from me anticipating it to happen. -shrug-

Basically, his tech chasing doesn't really work much differently than Sheik's does, it's just worse because her boost grab is wayyyyy larger than his, and also his non tech punishes are a little better than hers are.

 

[ConeZ]

Damn, that was a lot better of a response than I was expecting from anybody, especially since no one responded aside from that one guy.

Thank you for contributing that because, for me, it is hard to explain my tech chase flow chart because I don't personally own the game, and my tech chases are mostly on instinct as opposed to based on some logical flow.
I have various follow ups including d tilt and f tilt like you said for resets, but I think the major difference is that I run > crouch > down smash to punish some tech rolls near the ledge or at kill percent.

That said, I have been thinking about utilizing D cape, but I am still a bit shaky at it.

I will try to keep in mind that the dash grab is better for tech chasing. JC grab is a habit I got from playing Wario, starting in 3.02.. so... JC grab was pretty important if you didn't want to do the shoulder dash grab thing. xD

 

[Jolteon]

Damn, that was a lot better of a response than I was expecting from anybody, especially since no one responded aside from that one guy.

Thank you for contributing that because, for me, it is hard to explain my tech chase flow chart because I don't personally own the game, and my tech chases are mostly on instinct as opposed to based on some logical flow.
I have various follow ups including d tilt and f tilt like you said for resets, but I think the major difference is that I run > crouch > down smash to punish some tech rolls near the ledge or at kill percent.

That said, I have been thinking about utilizing D cape, but I am still a bit shaky at it.

I will try to keep in mind that the dash grab is better for tech chasing. JC grab is a habit I got from playing Wario, starting in 3.02.. so... JC grab was pretty important if you didn't want to do the shoulder dash grab thing. xD

I haven't really experimented with dsmash but on paper I think the other options look better (regrab is hard to argue with and IDC is better at killing). What input are you using for IDC? I find that B -> A is a lot easier than B -> flick c-stick.

I would recommend optimising it in game for sure! You kind have to anyway because being able to do it on reaction is so heavily dependent on recognizing animations for tech in place/tech rolls, so you have to get used to them. =p

 

[Phubs]

I haven't really experimented with dsmash but on paper I think the other options look better (regrab is hard to argue with and IDC is better at killing). What input are you using for IDC? I find that B -> A is a lot easier than B -> flick c-stick

Using the c stick for IDC is a better choice because it allows for you to both move and choose a direction (with the analog stick), which makes the move a lot more versatile and therefore more useful

 

[Narelex]

Using the c stick for IDC is a better choice because it allows for you to both move and choose a direction (with the analog stick), which makes the move a lot more versatile and therefore more useful

Generally the only slashes that cstick is more useful for are the "move slightly backwards and slash" and the "turnaround slash in place." A is superior in almost every-other circumstance I've found.

 

[Jolteon]

Using the c stick for IDC is a better choice because it allows for you to both move and choose a direction (with the analog stick), which makes the move a lot more versatile and therefore more useful

You don't need those options to punish non techs.

 

[<Green>]

Alright, so I figured I would post this pre-emptively to start a discussion about optimizing Metaknight's punish game much like the way Melee players look to optimize theirs.

Anyways cutting to the chase, (lel) I wanted to gauge the interest in some sort of collaborative effort in optimizing Metaknight's punish game specifically off of his tech chase, as it is, in my opinion, potentially his strongest asset. And I don't mean what cool **** can you do off of tech chases, I mean it'd be nice if we could have somewhere documented what *generally are the optimal followups in what situations.

I realize there would be a bit more work needed than in melee for this as there are more matchups, BUT I do believe MK can reaction tech chase at the very least mostly every character to some degree whether it be low percent only or possibly spacie-level zero to death level.

Which leads me to my next 2 questions:
1) Does anyone else have any data on this already?
2) Who else would want to work on this as well? Unfortunately, as I do not have a PM setup for personal use, my own progress will be limited outside of theorycrafting and learning/ analyzing frame data and occasional use of my friend's wii perhaps because my other friends likely wouldn't like me stealing the setup to practice perfecting tech chasing while they just sat there.

On an ending note, this'll be something I'm planning on spending more time on soon (I have a job and a girlfriend, so devoting my time to nerding out on tech chasing is hard to justify), but I wanted to check to see if anyone else was also interested in the topic before I dove into the world of frame data/ optimal punishes by myself.

I don't know how optimal it is, but I find dthrow->regrab->dtilt or upsmash to be good at low percent. Up smash let's you follow with uairs, and dtilt can allow you to follow with a variety of options depending on weight.

 

[Narelex]

I don't know how optimal it is, but I find dthrow->regrab->dtilt or upsmash to be good at low percent. Up smash let's you follow with uairs, and dtilt can allow you to follow with a variety of options depending on weight.

You can only get regrabs off improper DI.

 

[<Green>]

You can only get regrabs off improper DI.

True, I forgot to include that the regrab is DI dependent. Still an OK setup of your opponent DIs wrong. In most cases, skipping the regrab makes more sense.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Jolteon has it right, that man's reaction techchasing is real good.

Also, any characters against whom you would say Juggle > Techchase? What I mean is, any characters that you can juggle better than you can techchase them so it is worth it to techchase into an USmash for a juggle?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Something to consider at high percents is reactionary dimensional cape. I almost got dimensional cape to work in a reasonable matter back in 3.5 when dthrow sucked at low percent (back throw throws too far to make it humanly possible, though it is possible at TAS levels). So I imagine at higher percents on characters that are still forced to tech (or if they aren't on DI where you can combo and follow up, but they choose the tech chase) you can get dc stuff. You would just have to position yourself for idc to hit. Start the dc around frame 10 of their tech animation. Then react and do fully charged dimensional cape for the tech rolls. For characters with long tech rolls (I was testing on Fox), you may have to position yourself on top of their tech in place spot and use the c stick to move past them and slash back. IDC for tech in place + miss tech, Full DC for either tech roll. This could be useful for when you have a feeling they will tech roll as that's its primary goal, but you can still cover miss tech and tech in place with a decently strong move that also prevents them from punishing you.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Something to consider at high percents is reactionary dimensional cape. I almost got dimensional cape to work in a reasonable matter back in 3.5 when dthrow sucked at low percent (back throw throws too far to make it humanly possible, though it is possible at TAS levels). So I imagine at higher percents on characters that are still forced to tech (or if they aren't on DI where you can combo and follow up, but they choose the tech chase) you can get dc stuff. You would just have to position yourself for idc to hit. Start the dc around frame 10 of their tech animation. Then react and do fully charged dimensional cape for the tech rolls. For characters with long tech rolls (I was testing on Fox), you may have to position yourself on top of their tech in place spot and use the c stick to move past them and slash back. IDC for tech in place + miss tech, Full DC for either tech roll. This could be useful for when you have a feeling they will tech roll as that's its primary goal, but you can still cover miss tech and tech in place with a decently strong move that also prevents them from punishing you.

Can confirm, I do this occasionally, but I think it is really ****ing hard to do on reaction consitantly, definitely something worth working on though.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

It shouldn't be too hard to do just the rolls on reaction, so that's also an option.