Optimal control scheme for checkmate

[TheHypnotoad]

So whenever I use dthrow to uair, I feel like my opponent is able to airdodge out of it like 9 out of 10 times. But then I see players like Dath do it and land it 9 out of 10 times. The only thing I can think of is that my control scheme is unoptimal for landing checkmates (i.e. it causes me to waste frames moving my fingers from one button to the next). My current control scheme is the default controls but with tap jump off. Should I turn tap jump on? Should I set C-stick to attack instead of smash? Should I set jump to a trigger? Should I learn to use the claw grip? Should I do something else entirely? Or is my control scheme fine and I'm just a scrub?

 

[theyellowflash26]

I have jump set to L. After d throw, I input L, up on left stick, and up on c stick all at almost the same time. You CAN do it the way you have it, but its harder imo. I would say set a trigger to jump. Makes it so much easier.

 

[bou0010]

As well as having a shoulder button as jump, I'd also recommend having your c stick set to attack.
Having a controller setup like this will allow you to get a frame perfect uair, as well as having maximum horizontal movement to follow DI since you won't need to hold up on the control stick at all.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

As well as having a shoulder button as jump, I'd also recommend having your c stick set to attack.
Having a controller setup like this will allow you to get a frame perfect uair, as well as having maximum horizontal movement to follow DI since you won't need to hold up on the control stick at all.

But doesn't that mean that a Levin aerial won't come out if I used a jab/tilt/nair for my last attack?

 

[LevinViolin]

But doesn't that mean that a Levin aerial won't come out if I used a jab/tilt/nair for my last attack?

The nice thing about setting your c stick to attack with Robin is that you will still do Levin Sword aerials when using the c stick. The Levin aerials always comes out when using the c stick as attack or smash, unless you don't have the Levin Sword.

 

[Jenna Zant]

I only secondary Robin, but I assume my input can be helpful. For all my characters (Pika/Roy/Robin), with the gamepad, I set r to jump, l to shield, zl to shield, and zr to grab, tap jump on, and c-stick aerials.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

The nice thing about setting your c stick to attack with Robin is that you will still do Levin Sword aerials when using the c stick. The Levin aerials always comes out when using the c stick as attack or smash, unless you don't have the Levin Sword.

Wait, seriously?

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING. (Not really, but it's still good to know.)

 

[Zareidriel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have your C-stick set to attack, used the bronze sword last, and lightly tap the C-stick when doing an aerial, it should do the bronze version instead.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

But if you smash the C-stick when it's set to attack, it will always do a Levin aerial, right?

 

[Zareidriel]

I think so. But after trying Attack-stick for a while I would sometimes do an unintented Bronze, which sold me on Smash-stick forever.

I can see the merits of being able to use a Bronze version if you wanted to conserve your last couple of Levins. I would just rather have constant Levins though.

 

[Kadc]

actually attack c stick will still do levin even if you tap it really lightly

 

[Yorsh]

I'm a bit late to the party, but the bronze sword attack with the c stick is a bug.
How it works (only happens with c stick set to attack I think) :
If you buffer an aerial during your jumpsquat animation, and release the C stick before leaving the ground (7 frames), then robin will perform a "light" (or whatever it is called) aerial (so it will use the last sword you used). It's really easy to avoid, just hold the cstick a bit longer.

 

[Avokha]

Well, I manage to do it pretty consistently with the standard controller setup. For me, it's really just a matter of timing (my control scheme is L button= grab, c stick= specials, tap jump off. I don't need c stick shenanigans for MY aerials ).

 

[Zareidriel]

I'm a bit late to the party, but the bronze sword attack with the c stick is a bug.
How it works (only happens with c stick set to attack I think) :
If you buffer an aerial during your jumpsquat animation, and release the C stick before leaving the ground (7 frames), then robin will perform a "light" (or whatever it is called) aerial (so it will use the last sword you used). It's really easy to avoid, just hold the cstick a bit longer.

In all of my Checkmates, I have never run into this a single time, a bronze sword use, so I believe it's the "smashing" of the stick and not the earliness of it. I mis-time my Checkmates too early all too often. Just smash the analog/C stick hard/fast enough and it will make a Smashed Aerial every time.

 

[Yorsh]

In all of my Checkmates, I have never run into this a single time, a bronze sword use, so I believe it's the "smashing" of the stick and not the earliness of it. I mis-time my Checkmates too early all too often. Just smash the analog/C stick hard/fast enough and it will make a Smashed Aerial every time.

It's about both how early you are, and how long you hold the cstick in position. To perform a bronze aerial, your c-stick has to be back in neutral position before the end of the jumpsquat (robin's jumpsquat is one of the longest of the game, but it's still only 7 frames iirc). If you input your aerial on the 6th (it's still a buffered aerial), you won't be able to do it obviously, because you have 1 frame to input your aerial and get back to neutral (which is not a bad thing since doing bronze aerials are pretty much useless sadly). It really depends on the way you smash your c-stick, if your thumb rubs just a little bit with the stick or if you input your aerial 5 or 6 frames later than your jump, then you will never do it by mistake.

Now typing this I realised I never tried with the c-stick set to smash and with the analog stick, so I just tried and it works the exact same way (you just can't do the UAir since it will jump cancel Usmash instead).

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I just want to say that I set R to jump and C-stick to attack and all of a sudden I'm hitting every single one of my checkmates. It's like I was blind before, and my eyes have suddenly be opened. And it's not even just a Robin thing, setting a trigger to jump has made doing short hop aerials easier with every character. I'm never going back to my old control scheme again. This is amazing.

The only thing which annoys me is that a lot of the time I'll input an aerial and get a nair instead. I know this can happen if you have C-stick set to smash as well, but it's happening way more often now. Still, this new control scheme is definitely worth it.

 

[Zareidriel]

I'm an R-to-jump user as well! It's just the best isn't it? Converting over completely took a few weeks of hard play but I don't have any regrets. The nair thing happens when you push the stick really lightly and...diagonally? Something like that.

I'm not sure if having your C-stick set to attack really changes much in the way of Checkmates...but do you like it better for using tilts on the ground?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I almost never use the C-stick to do tilts, I still do those with holding a direction and pressing A. I only use the C-stick to do aerials now. I used to always use the C-stick to do smash attacks, so it took some time to break that habit (I would end up punishing something like a missed Rest with a forward tilt, lol), but I've pretty much gotten used to doing them with smashing a direction and pressing A.

By the way, this is sort of unrelated, but I've noticed that if you jump and press up on the C-stick at the same time, you'll do an utilt. I know that utilt can't be jump cancelled like usmash can, but it happens anyway. So to anyone using this control scheme, make sure you delay pressing the C-stick for a few frames after pressing jump.

 

[Yorsh]

By the way, this is sort of unrelated, but I've noticed that if you jump and press up on the C-stick at the same time, you'll do an utilt. I know that utilt can't be jump cancelled like usmash can, but it happens anyway. So to anyone using this control scheme, make sure you delay pressing the C-stick for a few frames after pressing jump.

I do this sometimes too. I don't think it has something to see with the C-stick set to attack, but more with the fact that you use a trigger to jump. Triggers on gamecube controller are slow (I mean you really have to push them, it takes more time then simply pressing a button) so if you don't push them as fast as you usually do, you end up inputing your tilt before the jump.

I'm not sure if having your C-stick set to attack really changes much in the way of Checkmates...but do you like it better for using tilts on the ground?

The thing is, if you input an UpAir during your jumpsquat (jumpsquat is everywhere today) with C-stick set to attack, it will just do it as soon as possible, so at the end of the jumpsquat. it means that it doesn't matter if you input your aerial on frame 1 to 7 or your jumpsquat, or on frame 1 of your actual jump, it will do the same exact thing. You have an 8 frames window, which is pretty much impossible to fail if you are used to it.

On the other hand, with c-stick set to smash, if you input an UpAir during the jumpsquat it will cancel your jump into an up smash, right ? So to be perfect on your checkmate, I mean throw the upAir as fast as possible, you have to be frame perfect. Since you can't buffer your UpAir, you have to input it during your actual jump, frame 1. If you are frame perfect 90% of the time, then yeah you can get a perfect checkmate with c-stick set to smash, but most people takes a margin (throwing an Upsmash can get you killed) and input their UpAir on frame like 2 to 4, and it's sometimes just what your opponant needed to airdodge. It all depends on how precise your inputs are.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Oh, you meant why I have C-stick set to tilt instead of smash. Yeah, like the previous poster explained, it's because you can jump cancel up smashes, so inputting the uair during jumpsquat will just do an up smash. Setting C-stick to tilt means that the frame window for inputting the uair is much more lenient. Trust me, I actually did try just setting R to jump and leaving the C-stick as smash, but it's just not worth it. The timing is way too strict.

 

[Zareidriel]

Ah I think I finally get what you guys mean now. Yorsh's explanation about the jump-cancelled up-smash really made it clear. Hm that seems like a pretty good idea, I'll have to give it a try.

 

[Zareidriel]

So now that it's been a week I thought I'd come back and double-post to you guys what I think. I tried attack-stick for a week and it was an interesting change. Took about a day to stop trying to smash with that thing, and another day to start tilting with it. It does make Checkmates easier, that much is true, instead of up-smashing. Or quick jumps->Upair with Bayonetta. But like you noticed, I was getting quite a high number of Nairs, with either character, as well as the occasional unintended bronze attack. This is also my fault and could be alleviated with harder, more precise use of the Stick. But it takes away some of the "ease-of-use" I was used to in my aerial C-stick use, and even over the next 5 days I was not able to change these habits; the Nairs continued. I switched back to Smash-Stick today, but I'm still unsure if that's the way things are gonna stay. I have great faith in the power of gamers to be able to change their control scheme or favored controller with enough determination, no matter how much the old scheme/controller has been ingrained. In this case, I might prefer the Smash-Stick, as it eliminates even the possibility of bronze swordage or extra nairs, even if I used Attack-Stick for years the danger will always be there, though it would be a much smaller chance then it is today. I think mastering the Checkmate timing and using Smash-Stick may be the superior option in this case. But not by a lot.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I disagree. Frankly, I can't even say that I just have a different opinion than you, I truly believe that C-stick set to tilt is objectively superior for Robin, and that, with all due respect, you are wrong. The number of accidental nairs is far too low to outweigh the benefits of not having to worry about accidental usmashes (which will occur much more frequently) and being able to buffer uair during jumpsquat.

 

[LevinViolin]

I disagree. Frankly, I can't even say that I just have a different opinion than you, I truly believe that C-stick set to tilt is objectively superior for Robin, and that, with all due respect, you are wrong. The number of accidental nairs is far too low to outweigh the benefits of not having to worry about accidental usmashes (which will occur much more frequentlyand being able to buffer uair during jumpsquat.

While I have the same opinion that having c stick set to tilts is better, I respect Zareidriel for trying out a different control scheme and coming to his own conclusion. To each their own.

At least we can all agree that using the shoulder buttons to jump is amazing though.

Edit: Something else that I've been meaning to bring up, but have been too lazy to test/look up myself, is the fact that while the c stick is set to attack, buffering an aerial will always result in a short hop. I don't believe that this is necessarily true, but I seem to have some occasions where I will do a short hop even though I definitely hold the jump button for long enough to perform a full hop. Maybe it's just in my head.

 

[Yorsh]

Edit: Something else that I've been meaning to bring up, but have been too lazy to test/look up myself, is the fact that while the c stick is set to attack, buffering an aerial will always result in a short hop. I don't believe that this is necessarily true, but I seem to have some occasions where I will do a short hop even though I definitely hold the jump button for long enough to perform a full hop. Maybe it's just in my head.

I heared this too but I can do both full hop and short hop with buffered aerials. Maybe it only works when you jump with the left stick (that's a random guess tho, but I can see it working that way, because of the way the game process the inputs from the C-stick)