Opinions/Suggestions on the subject of the current time limit/stock ammount?

[Juken]

What do you all think about the amount of stocks and time for each match? During EVO, I noticed some people complaining about how the matches would drag on a bit too long, and it is kind of true that they can go for a long time, even in Melee. There's 4 stocks each round, and then it has the typical stuff from other fighting game tourneys like best of 1/3/5, resets, and button checks. It also seems like the most hype Melee matches during EVO were the more short ones, especially the sub-1 minute 4 stock by Axe.

If the typical tourney stock amount and/or time limit were changed, what would you guys think would be better to keep matches going at a faster pace without time-outs being super frequent? And if you think that the current settings are as good as it could get, your opinion for why would be awesome too.

 

[Master WGS]

Really glad someone brought this up, as it's something I've been wrestling with lately.

I have been a competitive Smash player for a decade now. For as long as I've been playing (in Melee), 4 stocks and 8 minutes has been an uncontested standard (as far as I know). As my life has gotten a bit more busy with full-time work, school, and a social life outside of Smash, the idea of spending two whole days at major tournaments becomes less and less possible. Beyond that, the 4 stock/8 minute standard makes comebacks a lot less likely, as the worst you can be punished for a mistake is, essentially, only a quarter of your "life."

Initially, I thought the best reaction would just be ratchet things down. 3 stocks, 6 minutes. While I'd STILL prefer this to what we have now, it didn't address my concern with a low comeback potential. In the end, only a third of your "life" could really be punished. I'm not saying it's impossible to comeback, just that mistakes aren't quite as punishing as they are in other fighting games, which I think is disappointing.

Then a friend suggested "2 stocks, 4 minutes, best of 5, with games going to best of 7 for finals." I think this covers all of my concerns more adequately. 2 stocks makes your mistakes hit THAT much harder if they're punished. While if sets go for the maximum number of matches and time they're longer than my initial suggestion, this still shortens set-length, I think, considerably from the 4 stock/8 minute/bo3 standard.

Many of my friends who are into other fighting games refuse to give Smash more of a chance because they feel games and tournaments last too long. After attending a few other game tournaments myself, I can absolutely see where they're coming from. I don't know if my suggestions are a sure-fire way to make tournaments and sets run faster, but I think it's at least a decent start.

 

[Juken]

I actually agree on two stocks 5 minutes. That's much closer to the standard time for most other fighting games. Although, I wonder if there'd be any place that would actually be willing to try out something like 3 stocks, 5-6 minutes or 2 stocks with a Bo5/7 like you said. Bo5 every match may still cause matches to drag on still though, and only 2 stocks might make stock sharing in doubles much more difficult.

 

[metaXzero]

Much as I'd like to see this (though I'd personally want 3 stocks), I don't see things changing. The stock standard has been in place for over a decade I think. Good luck convincing people to change it.

After I started messing around with other fighters, I've always wondered how the decision of 5 stocks for 64 and 4 stocks for Melee got agreed upon.

 

[JiFoJoka]

Let's look at the fighting games at Evo (excluding final rules like extended game wins):

• Street Fighter : 99 seconds, 2/3 rounds, 2/3 games (max. ~15 minutes)
  
• Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 : 99 'seconds' (3 minutes?), 3/5 games (max. ~15 minutes)
  
• Killer Instinct : 99 seconds, 2/3 games (max. ~5 minutes)
  
• King of Fighters 13 : 60 seconds, 3/5 rounds, 2/3 games (max. 15 minutes)
  
• BlazBlue Chrono Phantasma : 99 seconds, 2/3 rounds, 2/3 games (max. ~15 minutes)
  
• Injustice: Gods Among Us : 99 seconds, 2/3 games (max. ~5 minutes)
• Tekken: 80 seconds, 3/5 rounds, 2/3 games (max. ~20 minutes)
• Super Smash Brothers Melee : 8 minutes, 2/3 games (max. ~24 minutes)

As you can see, Melee (and P:M in some tournaments) has the most gameplay time (roughly an extra 9 minutes compared to some games) if everyone decides to timer-scams. P:M can take longer to organise because of more stages to pick/ban from compared to Melee.

I like the idea of 2-stocks, 4 minutes (maybe 3-stocks, 5 minutes) for quicker games. Best of 3 (maybe even 5) games would fit non-Smash tournament schedules well.

 

[Hyperstorm]

To this day I'm still surprised that score display was removed in stock battles for some reason.

 

[metaXzero]

I mean I figured nothing was going to change due to how long its been in place, but no one is even going to post defending the current time and stock set? :/

 

[Game7a1]

I don't know why the stocks has to suffer from a time change. We could just reduce each match's time limit from 8 minutes to say 5 to 7 minutes. 4 stocks seems reasonable to me, but I don't think the matches need to be so safe to have 8 minutes matches (because then you get those who stall).
From a viewers point, I find Melee's/PMs 4 stocks fun. Enough stocks to make a comeback if possible among other things. Brawl's 3 stock is fine as well (maybe decrease the time by 1 minute); don't get 64's 5 stock as I think it should have 4 stocks as well...

 

[Master WGS]

The problem with Melee 4 stocks is the lack of comeback potential. It CAN happen (and is admittedly pretty exciting when it does), but that means the opponent HAD to screw up x times, where x is "number of stocks ahead or greater." Even if the underdog PLAYS perfectly, the most damage he can do at a time is a single stock. I like that additional stocks give wiggle room for early gimps, and ensure a single infinite doesn't decide an entire match. But 4 is too much. You don't need that much of a cushion.

ONLY lowering the timer would encourage more timeouts, which would in the end likely result in more time spent on your average match. Stocks need to take a hit as well. If Melee matches already time out (even if it's very rare), getting a slight lead and running away will look like more and more of a viable option if we ratchet down the clock. If that's the game we want, fine - I just don't think it is. Lowering both KEEPS it as an existing option, just a very difficult one.

Less stocks and less time seems like the best option. I understand 2 stocks seems extreme, but I think it's worth a shot. I feel like 3 stocks is a happy medium I could live with, and would much prefer to the archaic, overlong 4 stock/8 minute standard. Until someone gives me very sound reasoning as for why it NEEDS to be EXACTLY 4 stocks and 8 minutes, I don't see why it can't be tinkered with to be shorter so tournaments run more smoothly and efficiently, especially if Smash is looking to piggy-back on other fighting games at major events like EVO.

 

[Game7a1]

That makes sense. I do think 2 stocks is too low, and 3 stocks should be the lowest Smash has. Keeping the same 2/3 for most matches (aside from Finals).
2 stocks is, to me, too punishing unlike in other fighter games that have "2 stocks". You lose a stock, and you are at a severe disadvantage if the other person has 50% or less; in other fighter games, you lose a round, but you both start the next round at 100% health.
If I remember, some tournament (BH4) is going to experiment with 3 stocks on P:M; if things work there, then P:M should have 3 stocks. The time should decrease from 8 minutes to 5 or 6 minutes. If things don't work well and it ends up being too short (unlikely), then 3 stock-matches still need some adjustment.

 

[JiFoJoka]

I kind of see want you mean, but different fighting games have different rules.

Street Fighter uses rounds with life resets. Team fighting games (like Marvel vs Capcom and King of Fighters) have small life bars. Some 1v1 games (like Killer Instinct and Injustice) have '2' life bars without resetting.

I think this is something that needs a lot of experimenting. I definately feel that 4 stocks is too much and should be experimented with 2 or 3 stocks. 3 stocks might have that 'standard' feel, while 2 stocks might make players more cautious.

As for finals, I was thinking about an alternative where instead of 3 stock 5 min 3/5 games how about the current 4 stock 8 min 2/3 games?

 

[Eagle Smash]

I don't think "Comeback Potential" is a good angle to approach this from.

You already got outplayed and you have the rest of your stocks/ the timer to adapt.

...but at this time, I don't have any notion for an adjustment -- I haven't been to an event that has encouraged thoughts of stock/time adjustments.

 

[metaXzero]

It only really becomes a question when Smash is running alongside more traditional fighters. But it isn't like the FGC is demanding Smash events shorten their stocks. They could if they cared to though since outside tradition, there really isn't a reason why 4 stocks/8 minutes is inherently better than any lower number (well besides 1 stock which I find a bit ridiculous for anything that isn't Brawl).

 

[Eagle Smash]

There isn't yet a real reason to reduce the numbers of PM that has nothing to do with things that are not PM related.

And in case that's a bit difficult to understand (since I know what I mean but that text line up is somewhat awful), the only reason this argument appears is when other non-PM events are run simultaneously. When this question arises, it's unfair to ignore Melee's ruleset at the same time.

Smash in general is a just a more time-consuming fighter; unless something is seriously wrong or less efficient using these metrics to determine that one player is better than most others, there's no point in seriously addressing this -- but, PM is often considered less seriously when it comes to large events, so I guess I understand why the question has risen in the first place ...

(I guess I'm just annoyed, really.)

 

[metaXzero]

I thought the thread was mainly about Melee and a little about PM. Brawl is already toying around with lower stocks and no one really cares much about what 64's stock/time set is (though I do personally believe that game should have lower stocks too).

Smash consumes more time BECAUSE of the current stock and time limit numbers. That can't be denied. And it's not because it needs to be this way. I can't find any reason why 2-3 stocks would have a massively negative impact on determining the better player. But the fact is this is just the way it's always been and probably always will be unless the community seriously starts considering the FGC. Which I doubt they will.

 

[Eagle Smash]

Yeah, I'm just saying it's only a problem because of these larger events. Otherwise it's not an issue afaik...

My opinion might change if I ever actually manage to attend a larger event -- I'm usually stuck with some unavoidable obligation on those big dates.