Opinion: Smash U is the same as Smash 4 competitve.

[therealganon]

I think this got taken down on reddit for some reason so here’s the scoop.
Okay, where do I begin with this? I’ve played Smash ultimate for more than 24 hours total time and while playing various matches, especially local friendlies, I have been noticing the exact same problem Smash 4 had with how matches turn out. Instead of fun aggressive playstyles as seen in Melee, my most played smash game competitive and not, I see bait and camp playstyles from Smash Ultimate.
Now I’m not saying the game is slow just like Smash 4 is because, Smash Ultimate is not a slow game, as a matter of fact, I think its almost as fast as melee in terms of potential combo game. The underlying problem that I want to address is like Smash 4, the game relies heavily on guarding mechanics and as I mentioned, the “bait playstyle”. I understood when going into this game not to play like Melee at all, but I at least expected it to be accepting towards different playstyles i.e. defensive, aggressive, etc. During my first moments playing the game, I had a blast, the combat seemed more fluid than Smash 4 ever was and games ended quicker.
This is when I played more aggressively and my opponents were doing so as well. However, as I got more time in, I started playing against people who relied heavily on the bait playstyle as I mentioned before. Shielding or staying near the ledge in order to draw me in. Of course as I mentioned, I played aggressively, so I fell right into the many traps. King K Rool, Ridley, and Samus/Dark samus, and a few others characters seemed to used this strategy more often. The problem that I see is that there is no eccentive to intiate the fight. Going aggressive puts you at more risk than the defender, making a slower and more painful game.
So of course, I altered my playstyle and went more defensive options, such as waiting for the oponent or baiting with a move to set up a grab, etc. But then the game just turned into a “whoever gets grabbed gets comboed” game. In short, shielding is too good and the rolling mechanics are still good enough to dodge most attacks. Shielding is the main problem though. Shields dont move back unless in a flurry and seem to come out really fast, not sure on the frame data. Flurries are too powerful for how easy the setup is and projectiles are still a problem. From what was fun and fast paced games, quickly turned into a slow shield/spamming mess. Perhaps I’m just salty I lost so many times due to these playstyles that I just came here to vent, but I am wondering if anyone else is encountering this problem in their matches. Finally, because this seemed like a optimal strategy when playing the game, I also thought that when competitive smash ultimate starts to take off and everyone has become more situated that it will force players to play in these ways. For in competitive play the goal is to win, and why not use the optimal strategy.
P.S.
Sakurai did a good job on this game, and it is still enjoyable to play and watch from time to time. Just my opinion, competitve could turn to out to be uninteresting in the long run.

 

[Modesty]

There is chance the competitive meta becomes fairly campy and slow paced even with the faster engine, but I not convinced of it yet. Remember it's still a new game and people haven't figured out how to do a lot yet, plus a lot of people are just playing it like smash 4 because that's what they are used to. I too coming from melee am a little hesitant to get excited about competitive yet, as I would like to play this along melee, but I think we need to give the meta a chance to develop.

 

[kraw23]

I notice that your main is Ganon...that might be part of your issue mate. Try someone a bit faster/less scary to fight against and people might drop their shields.

 

[Idon]

Give it a month, mate.

 

[Arrei]

The Ganon perspective is especially important here, because his type of character design, as a fighter with low mobility and no projectile, is just always going to be more vulnerable to bait tactics. Your job as a Ganon is to trick your opponent into using the wrong bait and punishing it.

 

[Blueye]

I dont know how you state that shields are too strong when they are MUCH worse than in smash 4. Shield grabbing in particular is a few frames slower (3 or 4 i saw in a video), which is enough for many characters to land an attack on shield and then use a poke to beat the shield grab.

For example a well spaced nair by Shulk on shield allows him to down tilt well before the enemies grab would come out. Good spacing+a fast tilt or jab beats shield unless they parry the aerial.

 

[Carthage]

My experience has been that it is faster but not that much faster.

A lot of mid tier fighters got faster but it's not like characters feel faster than smash 4 launch sheik.

The game will get faster if good kill setups are found, until then the nature of having to do slower, more punishable moves to kill will continue to make the game more defensive. If my opponent has to take big risks to ever kill me, I can just wait and punish those risks.

 

[Edgar Chez]

I agree, it would be defensive and boring

 

[rat.jpg]

Whenever a new set comes out for a card game or a new character comes out for a game people still play the most dominant strategy from last season while other people experiment. The experiments either get stomped or thrive and create a new meta. Same thing with Smash. People are going to try what works until it doesn't

 

[Arthur97]

I take issue that Melee is the only style that works. It shouldn't be Melee, and it won't be. Don't expect it.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

A lot of characters have no incentive to get into a boxing match, especially against Ganondorf (but that's been said to death already.)

Also, remember that Melee's meta was dominated by Fox, Marth, Sheik and Jigglypuff. Two of these guys have projectiles, yes, but they play very little part in attacks, spacing, etc. The only character to break that trend & make constant use of a ranged option is Peach. Additionally, Melee has had almost two decades of time for players to tinker and figure out what's optimal. Ultimate is a week old. Think about what new players do (spam projectiles) and what veterans do (combos, tech, etc.)

I'm not saying it's unlikely for Ultimate to develop a campy, spammy metagame. But there's a lot of very good characters who can bypass the super-buffed projectile strategy altogether because they're so much better up close. I already complain about Roy, Chrom and Lucina (characters with no projectile at all) since I can't get them off me.

 

[Sean²]

This seems like bait to me. I'm not falling for it.

Maybe if the game had been out for a few months. But not for 7 days. Nice try, though.

 

[NintenGunner]

I'd reccomend picking up someone who can defeat a baity playstyle, such as characters who use minor projectiles to hit them from afar and then do some good combos, and that might get them away from their campfire. and after that, they are up for a good smacked-in-the-face fest.
i'm a bit new to playing ultimate, so hopefully this'll help.

 

[chipndip]

I mean, what are you gonna camp with in Melee? Everything moves at mach 5 and the projectile game isn't that interesting in that game.

This game has a lot more powerful camping tools, and there isn't a massive discrepancy in power levels between characters (at least for now). Campy styles are going to be at least somewhat comparable in power to other styles, if not stronger for certain match-ups, so you're seeing campers because it's easier to do, but it doesn't mean rush down's out of style.

 

[Savage1]

That's exactly what I like about Ultimate lol. Much more play styles are viable than just rush down. The best part is that tons of people are now complaining about it instead of learning how to counter it.

 

[ChikoLad]

I feel rushdown is actually the most effective playstyle right now, mixed in with some projectile spam. Anyone who had something more unique going has really suffered.

It's understandable that in a roster of 74 fighters that some got inevitably left in the dust. But it can be frustrating depending on your character. As a Rosalina main from Wii U/3DS, I'm really upset with what they did to her, she feels blatantly unfinished and like the changes they made to her were not fully play tested, and I know a lot of other Rosalina players feel the same. Sonic is a character I know is improved, but for some reason I do awful with him online and I've gone as low as 200,000 GSP (starting at 800,000) yet when I play offline I feel really good with him. Sometimes I play my Nia Mii Brawler for the memes, and Mii Brawler feels OK, but I still struggle with them.

I'm personally struggling to get any leverage out of my old mains while also struggling to fall in love with anyone else so my enjoyment of the game is being hampered by that a bit. It's possible you're struggling with a similar thing with Ganondorf. I don't know what to suggest other than to lab a lot with Ganondorf if you really wanna get into the game, but also to maybe have another character or two you enjoy in your pocket.

 

[REZERO]

There's a few things about Ultimate that is different:

• Projectile spam is rewarding at lower levels of gameplay.
• Guard spam is punishable
• Roll spam is punishable
• New characters = New meta (Simon/Richter/Isabelle/Snake/K.Rool)
  • With that being said these characters focus on projectile spam or ranged spacing along with a few peculiar things about each character they tend to spam or use. Snake has up tilt, K.Rool armor, Richter excessive ranged specials and smashes.

The new Smash punished evasion and added new characters to the roster. Again, nothing like how Melee -> Brawl -> SM4SH but the change is there and it rewards a mix between defense and offense. The game obviously wasn't built from the ground up seeing as how it reuses elements from SM4SH.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

In my experience I've seen the opposite. Matches tend to become more aggressive and approach options are a bit safer that I sometimes find difficult to shake someone off my face. Some players are also more defensive by nature while others.
This game doesn't have to become like Melee to be good, it just has to be its own thing.

 

[chipndip]

I feel rushdown is actually the most effective playstyle right now, mixed in with some projectile spam. Anyone who had something more unique going has really suffered.

It's understandable that in a roster of 74 fighters that some got inevitably left in the dust. But it can be frustrating depending on your character. As a Rosalina main from Wii U/3DS, I'm really upset with what they did to her, she feels blatantly unfinished and like the changes they made to her were not fully play tested, and I know a lot of other Rosalina players feel the same. Sonic is a character I know is improved, but for some reason I do awful with him online and I've gone as low as 200,000 GSP (starting at 800,000) yet when I play offline I feel really good with him. Sometimes I play my Nia Mii Brawler for the memes, and Mii Brawler feels OK, but I still struggle with them.

I'm personally struggling to get any leverage out of my old mains while also struggling to fall in love with anyone else so my enjoyment of the game is being hampered by that a bit. It's possible you're struggling with a similar thing with Ganondorf. I don't know what to suggest other than to lab a lot with Ganondorf if you really wanna get into the game, but also to maybe have another character or two you enjoy in your pocket.

Sonic...was not improved. All the high/top tiers of the last game are straight nerfed in this game.