Opinion on Robin's ideal specials?

[NACL20XX]

Title says everything.

 

[NACL20XX]

Both thunder specials are very flawed to me. Speed Thunder's Thoron is fast and difficult to see, making it good for unexpected long distance kills at high percentages. But it's weaker than standard thoron (which already takes a while to kill) and it's still telegraphed. Also, the best mode (Arcthunder) has less utility because of it's speed increase. Thunder+ is a bit of a mixed bag (also, I never really used it that often. Yeah, thoron kills at a reasonable percent, but you'll be spending the majority of the match waiting for a new tome. But at least there'll be a lot more book throwing.

Haven't really bothered with the arc fire customs, but I assume that they just aren't nearly as good. I haven't unlocked +, but Fire Wall's defensive capabilities can be best described as... underwhelming.

Elwind was a bit of a difficult choice. Default is predictable, and easy to gimp, but covers more distance. Gliding moves Robin so quickly that it gimps and spikes are risky. If Robin is parallel to the stage, she WILL make it black. However, if Robin is anywhere under the stage, she'll just die. So both moves as recoveries have their major pros and cons. Offensively, they're both even as well; Default is good against low recoveries while Gliding is good against high recoveries. However, I'll have to give this to Default. It's issues with edge guarding can be partially solved if you arc fire while you're above or parallel to the ledge, in comparison to the Gliding, where if you're below the stage without your jump, you're dead no matter what.

Soaring blows pretty hard. I think that it cover's the same amount of distance as the default (if not, then it cover's less distance), but the pause in between the two winds can you killed. It might help avoid spikes, but it'll instead lead to a footstool.

Nosferatu is an easy one. The customs ruin the damn point of this spell. It's intended to be a risky and delayed grab that rewards you by healing you, an invaluable ability. Distant Nosferatu is basically Nosferatu for dummies. Goetia is completely useless, because you could have dealt even more damage with a normal (instant) grab.

Basically, default all the way. If you question why I posted this thread if I only care about default, it's because my friend thinks that Goetia is actually worth something.

 

[Raziek]

The only category I think has an objective 'best' is Elwind, which should always be default.

Fire Wall and Speed Thunder are super helpful in certain matchups, but I use the defaults the most.

Goetia is..... situationally sort of ok? I basically only use it if I think there's no way I'm going to be landing regular Nos.... which is basically never. Having the healing reward is too important to me to use a custom on that one.

 

[Zareidriel]

What Raziek said, minus the Goetia, which I think is about as useless as everything that isn't Speed Thunder or Fire Wall.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Goetia is basically an enhanced grab and nothing more. Nosferatu's healing properties are what makes it an ideal move as that small recovery % can be enough to change the favor. I would use Goetia against players suffering from ADHD...meaning they don't like to stand still.

 

[Pazzo.]

I went with defaults, save for Thunder+.

I really haven't tested the effectiveness of it post-1.1.0, but I still think it's a good tool if you play an aggressive Robin.

 

[PK Gaming]

Goetia is a better command grab than Nosferatu due to the sucking effect (and you'll want to use it in matchups where Nosferatu is useless), but it's still not all that great due to its lengthy start up. Nosferatu ends up being better overall due to the healing which can straight up swing matches.

 

[Randum]

Yeah I think Robin's customs are pretty matchup dependent and even possibly stage dependent. I'd say his defaults are probably the best overall, but in a customs-allowed environment, it's not a bad idea to switch it up.

As for Thunder, default seems like the perfect balance to me with charge time, speed, and number of uses before the tome breaks. Thunder+ is nice, but breaks after only one Thoron. Not to mention how difficult it is to charge to Arcthunder without having the opponent losing the stock. And charging to Thoron is definitely not a walk in the park especially vs rushdown characters. Speed Thunder just doesn't do enough damage or knockback (or have enough hitstun with Arcthunder) to be truly rewarding. It's nice in matchups where Robin has trouble keeping up and zoning due to the sheer speed of the opposing character, but actually hitting something doesn't usually transform into anything but a quick bit of %. I just don't see Thunder+ being that useful especially after the 1.1.0 buff to Elthunder's damage and I'd only consider Speed Thunder in certain matchups.

Arcfire is good. Like, really good. I was disappointed to see Fire+ and even less enthusiastic about Fire Wall (at first). I honestly see no use for Fire+ since it's pretty much just default without the hitstun and zoning ability. Fire Wall was disappointing to me at first because it practically removes the whole zoning idea entirely, but I actually found a bit of a use for it on flatter stages with fewer platforms vs fast rushdown characters. I play a pretty jumpy Robin and it's nice to be able to actually hit the stage with Fire Wall from even the top of a double jump. It helps a lot with one of Robin's issues, which is landing. And since it lands direclty in front, rushdown characters can't just roll towards Robin when he goes for a Fire. His playstyle changes a bit with Fire Wall, but it's well worth it when he can't set up any landing traps below/outside of platforms. I almost always strike and ban FD, but if something happens where I end up on FD, I'll almost always switch to Fire Wall vs rushdown characters.

And finally, I was really hype when I saw Distant Nosforatu, but it honestly isn't as good as I thought it'd be. I did some testing in training mode and found that Fair into Distant Nos is guaranteed at certain % and DI, but it just doesn't feel rewarding at all when players mash out very quickly. The whole reason Nos is so amazing is how much it can heal at high %, but Distant Nos kinda removes that ability. Distant Nos is definitely one of the most unique moves in the game, though, and very good for Robin's zoning game. A command grab with that range is pretty cool. Too bad it does less damage and heals less. Goetia is actually pretty awesome to be honest. As a jumpy Robin, I often b-reverse charging Thunder and land with Levin Sword bairs to mixup landings, and eventually people start putting up their shield while I'm in the air, especially at higher percents, which is where Goetia shines. Getting that extra 20% to put heavy punish-based characters into checkmate range is pretty important. Characters with short range punishes like Sheik and Luigi tend to look for shield grabs off of whiffed falling bairs, so you can sometimes surprise them with a falling b-reverse or turn around Goetia. Goetia is much more beneficial than Nosferatu when both players are at high % or Robin is at low % and the other at high %, so the extra range and sucking ability makes it a bit safer due to the ability to b-reverse it more often and still land it. Nosferatu is really rewarding, though, especially in the Sheik matchup because of how often Sheiks seem to shield and punish out of shield and how hard it is for her to kill. If you take the first stock, landing a Nos widens the lead very considerably. Nos also has a comeback factor that can completely spin the game around. Overall, I prefer Nos in most matchups, but I can see Goetia being a solid option.

Elwind is the best option I don't even know what the developers of the other customs were thinking.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Arcfire+'s uses seem to only be based on maximizing your zoning against slower fighters in smaller stages. I did do a double take when I noticed it land in the DK64 stage, and the resulting explosion covering a nice portion of the stage.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

aggressive Robin.

That's a thing?

 

[Fanttum]

I like using Thunder+ cause you can get one arc thunder for set up's/shield pressure, and then one thoron to finish the job, per book.
But the changing time can be killer, and I would never use against any aggressive character/player.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Can't say the results of this poll so far are surprising. Our defaults really do seem to be our best overall choices. This is perhaps just as well, since Customs seem to be falling out of favor in tournament rules?

 

[Raijinken]

In Singles, I'd probably prefer Firewall in many matchups since it gives Robin something to use while landing. Otherwise I run default, except in Doubles where I'm more willing to rely on Thunder+.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Can't say the results of this poll so far are surprising. Our defaults really do seem to be our best overall choices. This is perhaps just as well, since Customs seem to be falling out of favor in tournament rules?

No - more like Robin's customs are simply awful.

 

[Zareidriel]

I think one of the main issues is the time investment. If you consider how many times you yourself, or any Robin player, has used Arcfire and regular Thunder, it's probably a pretty big number right? Most players probably have less than a tenth of that practice with Customs. Sure the concept behind Speed Thunder is the same but the timings and followups are slightly different. But its speed can be such a huge boon, against faster opponents especially. And the usage of Fire Wall is entirely different. I think its ability to cover landings (one of our greatest weaknesses) is good enough to sacrifice the offensive capabilities of Arcfire against a large portion of the cast. Both of these moves (and the rest) have been researched only very slightly in relation to the defaults. They probably have a lot of untapped potential.

But since customs aren't in use hardly ever, investing research and time to practice into them is a waste of time.

 

[Raijinken]

Practice time aside, before the Checkmate patch I would have run Thunder+ or Speed Thunder 100% of the time compared to default. Now those are more situational. Firewall is still the only one I'm willing to make the trade on in the majority of cases.

Then again, as someone who strictly plays Customs On, I guess I get more practice with and against them than others, though much of that has to be against CPUs/Amiibos or the rare visit from my friends/brother.

 

[FieryRebirth]

As discussed in a similar topic, most of Robin's customs are too situational to feel like an upgrade compared to the defaults - trading strengths and weaknesses. While Smash 4's new custom special feature spans across so many different types of fighters, they usually follow a formula, but some fighters get customs that are more directly an upgrade such as Villager's Up B custom. If anything, it's just another example of bad balancing.

I also love playing with customs, and run a build specifically around certain match-ups(Thunder+ for teams or FFA, speed thunder/default for 1v1), and customs like Firewall is a good example of a trade-off ability. Everything else though doesn't offer much and again, feel more situational. I'm mostly referring to Nosferatu and Elwind customs of course.

 

[Raijinken]

As discussed in a similar topic, most of Robin's customs are too situational to feel like an upgrade compared to the defaults - trading strengths and weaknesses. While Smash 4's new custom special feature spans across so many different types of fighters, they usually follow a formula, but some fighters get customs that are more directly an upgrade such as Villager's Up B custom. If anything, it's just another example of bad balancing.

I also love playing with customs, and run a build specifically around certain match-ups(Thunder+ for teams or FFA, speed thunder/default for 1v1), and customs like Firewall is a good example of a trade-off ability. Everything else though doesn't offer much and again, feel more situational. I'm mostly referring to Nosferatu and Elwind customs of course.

I think the main issue with the Elwind options is that neither really improves your recovery or makes it, for instance, less easy to punish/edgeguard. They change its direction/timing, and as a result, offer extremely little that the default doesn't (there are a handful of situations in which Elwind won't get you back to stage but Gliding would, for instance). Nosferatu is similar. Goetia is alright if you don't value the recovery (which, I don't know a Robin who doesn't value the recovery), but to my knowledge there's still no real reason to use Distant Nosferatu over default unless you just design some weird Doubles setup around that idea. Contrast other moves, even in cases where the default is preferred about 80% of the time, that other 20% is probably matchup-relevant or strategically useful, instead of a negligible change.

 

[Lichmassacre]

Honestly when it comes to using Robin I use all defaults. Mainly because customs aren't legal, but honestly I feel the customs are weak compared to the regular moves. I'll stick with regular. Thunder doesn't take that long to charge IMO and I'm mostly using El Thunder anyways. Arcfire I keep so I can combo. Elwind should be obvious, and Nosferatu is not easy to land unless the opponent didn't suspect it so I just waste all four uses so I can use Nosferatu as a projectile.