Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Wii Fit Trainer

[John12346]

Well, lets take the important into consideration: both of our lineups agree the following 6 sets are essential:
2321 1321 2121 3321 1323 1322

My remaining 4 are: 1121 3121 2323 2322
And your remaining 4 are: 3111 3322 3311 2122

From what I can tell the argument is that Header and Super Hoop should be paired together at all times, but the Header and Super Hoop combo fall short by a significant deal to Weighted Header and Jumbo Hoop. With that in mind, I believe that Weight and Jumbo should have 6 combinations of X32X(all salutations, two breathings). I definitely hold that Salutations 1 and 2 are extremely distinct in what they bring to Wii Fit's playstyle, and they should all be conserved.

So with that in mind, we get the combinations of:
2321 1321 2322 1322 3321 3322

Then, we should add in Steady breathing sets for the first two Salutations(Steady and Sweeping should not be paired because it will present an issue with killing when the time comes):
2323 1323

And lastly, two niche sets for Header and Super Hoop:
2111 1112(don't forget that 1111 also counts for this lineup; unfortunately 2112 is excluded due to lack of slots)

This gives us a combined total of:
2321 1321 2322 1322 3321 3322 2323 1323 2111 1112

Which I believe covers all conceivable playstyles that Wii Fit might want to use in tournament. How does that sound?

 

[⑨ball]

Still not convinced we need any volatile sets as it's pretty bad and the idea that it helps her get back to the ground is really dependent on players not knowing how it works which isn't really something we should be factoring in to a competitive set. After the first blast it's not even mildly threatening.

I'd like to see it changed out for 3211 if the only interest in 1112 is that it helps with spikes. I'm also not sure what playstyle 2111 caters to that default/1111 doesn't.

 

[PUK]

I think we lack of experience with how to play with custom against Humans. During EVO you will can test thing like volatile.
And i believe i messed with numbers and talk about steady as custom 2. Sorry :-( edit: yeah definively
So 1321 2321 3321 are a given
1323 and 2323 are good options but 3323 is not because it limits our kill options.
3311 seems legit for a JHless set.
We could add a 1123 or 2123 set. A set with volatile: 2122 looks good.
Two rooms staying: 3312 is my proposition and i couldn't find any other set non surclassed by another. 1311 maybe...

 

[deepseadiva]

Without having testing it myself, Steady Breathing looks crazzzzzyy.

 

[John12346]

I can affirm that Volatile definitely isn't as useful as people believe it should be. I have enough experience against humans to confirm this, but it definitely wouldn't hurt to have a set or two involving it.
.
.
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Thinking about it, we can all agree that 2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 are all essential sets for Wii Fit, right?

If we wanted to have some more niche sets that involve Super Hoop, Header, Volatile, and some with more Sweeping, I would mark it down to look like this:
1121 - essential set but with Header
Very basic, no explanation needed.

3121 - essential Sweeping set but with Header
This set lacks a bit in the power department but has the use where you can Header cancel and then fire off a Sweeping, causing multiple projectiles to fly at the opponent at the same time.

1322 - essential set but with Volatile
Very basic, no explanation needed.

2311 - essential set but with Super Hoop
Enriched is chosen because the added recovery supplements firing the stronger, laggier projectile while offstage much more effectively.

3311 - essential Sweeping set but with Super Hoop
Again, this set's projectile is much laggier than the original, so having a beefed up recovery gives you much more liberty to go deep while using this one and still make it back.

This would give us a final lineup of:
2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 1121 3121 1322 2311 3311

And personally speaking, I think this setup is legit. So many of the various things Wii Fit could possibly want to do are definitely encompassed here, in these 10 sets. I believe that this is the lineup we should run with.

 

[⑨ball]

I think we lack of experience with how to play with custom against Humans. During EVO you will can test thing like volatile.

It's because I have experience that I know Volatile isn't all I thought it would be. The thing that really holds this move back is it's charge time after the first detonation(assuming you didn't cancel and get penalty). The first explosion is great, but after that your default charge time becomes much slower making it a hugely telegraphed attack that kills later than other options like bair or fully charged ESS. After that the charge time is simply much too long for the relatively small knockback you get. Without it's use as an approach (1.05 patch took out the sliding breathing), it's pretty much outclassed in everything you might want to use it for (except hype).

Thinking about it, we can all agree that 2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 are all essential sets for Wii Fit, right?

Mainly 2321/1321/3321.

I haven't played with steady enough to call it essential, but there's no reason not to try them out with the potential it has. I absolutely love the idea of turning the initial grab combos a lot of characters have, into punishes.

3311 - essential Sweeping set but with Super Hoop
Again, this set's projectile is much laggier than the original, so having a beefed up recovery gives you much more liberty to go deep while using this one and still make it back.

This would give us a final lineup of:
2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 1121 3121 1322 2311 3311

And personally speaking, I think this setup is legit. So many of the various things Wii Fit could possibly want to do are definitely encompassed here, in these 10 sets. I believe that this is the lineup we should run with.

I like everything about this setup except 3311.
Sweeping pushes opponents out, weighted can go low and kill, DB because it's amazing at pretty much any time, but there's no point in going deep/having super hoops if you're using weighted. (ala 3121 is legit)

Seeing as we already have 3321 and 3121, it'd be best to use Jumbo Header here as it'd be the only reason to ever use superhoops in a set with sweeping.

 

[John12346]

double post

 

[John12346]

-snip-

Actually, I had forgotten about Jumbo Header being more effective with Sweeping in that regard. So the proposed change here would be 3311 --> 3211, giving us a layout of:

2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 1121 3121 1322 2311 3211

But maybe we could also do more with similar analysis. Perhaps we could also change 3121 to 3221 to allow for the Sweeping/Jumbo Header combination in this lineup too for people who still want Jumbo Hoop? It would effectively be a super wall-out set in that regard. That would be a finishing lineup of:

2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 1121 3221 1322 2311 3211

Seems pretty legit, wouldn't you say?

 

[deepseadiva]

Volatile's hitbox looks huge, but it also seems to be a version of Ike's Eruption with a massive countdown warning...

 

[⑨ball]

2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 1121 3221 1322 2311 3211
Seems pretty legit, wouldn't you say?

Looks perfect to me.

Volatile's hitbox looks huge, but it also seems to be a version of Ike's Eruption with a massive countdown warning...

I wish we had that Eruption's knock back and release control maybe with a trade off for sour spot range depending on the charge instead. That'd make Volatile incredibly useful.

Luckily, jumbo and super hoops can cover the same use Eruption does, only about 1000x better.

 

[John12346]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 1121 3221 1322 2311 3211

I mean, we seemed to have finished discussing this a little while ago, and we seem to have the sets we REALLY want to use for her, but it never hurt to double check to make sure we have everything in line, right?

Spoiler: Notes taken during preliminary creation of sets

Wii Fit Trainer:
John12346's Proposed Sets: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...t-wii-fit-trainer.380369/page-2#post-18706528
2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 1121 3221 1322 2311 3211

 

[PixelChaos]

I'm more of a 2131 guy,
Enriched Sun Salutation is pretty great,
Header has no good ones imo,
I really find Hoop Hurricane to be useful. It goes as high as the regular hoops (at least from what I can tell. Maybe I'm not good at mashing b), and the hitbox on it makes it a pretty safe recovery move.
I think all the breathing techniques are useful in their own situations, but I quite enjoy the standard one.

 

[John12346]

Considering the left/right movement you get with normal Super Hoop, Super Hoop and Hoop Hurricane(which actually does get more height) recover approximately the same amount of distance when used. The difference is you have no power to veer out of the way from an edgeguard if you're stuck using Hurricane. With Super, you have more agency to avoid any attacks that come your way while recovering.

The only perk that Hurricane really has is that it consistently stagespikes people who misspace/mistime their edgeguards, but that seems more gimmicky than anything and loses effectiveness as you go up against higher levels of players, you know?

 

[⑨ball]

I haven't even found that hurricane consistently does that as opponents tend to bounce around in it and get sent out left or right randomly. Super hoops and jumbo are much better options for stage spikes as they eat the 1 frame vulnerability alive bringing back the threat of an opponent hanging on the ledge.

I think hoop hurricane's best use is in conjunction with huge header. The windbox allows you to move the ball without hitting it, and as huge header has the strongest options against recovering high, you essentially get a combo(albeit a gimmicky one) that can handle opponents that constantly recover from above the ledge.

Header has no good ones imo,

You might want to take another look at their utility. All of her headers are good and have varying usage depending on the MU.
I'd recommend looking into The Header thread to learn a few neat things.

 

[PixelChaos]

I haven't even found that hurricane consistently does that as opponents tend to bounce around in it and get sent out left or right randomly. Super hoops and jumbo are much better options for stage spikes as they eat the 1 frame vulnerability alive bringing back the threat of an opponent hanging on the ledge.

I think hoop hurricane's best use is in conjunction with huge header. The windbox allows you to move the ball without hitting it, and as huge header has the strongest options against recovering high, you essentially get a combo(albeit a gimmicky one) that can handle opponents that constantly recover from above the ledge.



You might want to take another look at their utility. All of her headers are good and have varying usage depending on the MU.
I'd recommend looking into The Header thread to learn a few neat things.

I'll be sure to do that. Ty c:

 

[DunnoBro]

Huge header absolutely shuts down characters without projectiles or severe disjoints/mobility. Ganondorf, falcon, etc.

TKbreezy and PawnShopGuns (Two Xanadu WFT mains) seem to like huge header a lot, and I personally find it the most infuriating and versatile to play against of the headers in many matchups. I think it'd be worth putting on more than 1 set...

Definitely should have a sweeping set with it, to deal with other projectile users. (Without it duck hunt, samus, villager, etc absolutely destroy WFT)

So 2221 seems like a set that should make it in as a crucial set. Anything niche that can be removed?

 

[Macchiato]

I think one set should be 3323

 

[⑨ball]

You guys waited until the last day(suggested by AA, not sure if it's official) to get in on the discussion.
:|

Huge header absolutely shuts down characters without projectiles or severe disjoints/mobility. Ganondorf, falcon, etc.

It's pretty good, but tends to pale in comparison to weighted on stage and sits in default's shadow offstage. We have it for two sets actually with variations for hoops.

Sweeping is excellent against most projectiles, but it's most suited against characters that can throw out far reaching hitboxes for free (Luma, fireballs, disjointed fairs, ect.).

(Without it duck hunt, samus, villager, etc absolutely destroy WFT)

lolnah

Highly debatable mu opinion aside, the only character that sweeping might be optimal for of those three is Villager. None of them have projectiles that a charged sweep is worth, and uncharged in the cases where it works would be much better as a fully charged default or enriched.

So 2221 seems like a set that should make it in as a crucial set. Anything niche that can be removed?

Huge header works best with sweeping so you don't need to waste shots hitting the ball. Otherwise you're taking a risk of getting it hit back at you ala DDD's gordos without any coverage or investing a shot's cool down time into one hit for less damage than you'd normally get out of your jabs.
=/

I think one set should be 3323

I'm pretty sure this was one of the sets that got switched out for the niche. (1322)
We still have 3321. Do you think steady would be better than DB for the combination?

 

[DunnoBro]

None of them have projectiles that a charged sweep is worth and uncharged in the cases where it works would be much better as a fully charged default or enriched.

Duck hunt's can survives full charged salutations, and so do mega gunmen. Frisbee eats uncharged and trades with full charge. Default gunmen also trade with the other salutations at full or less charge.

Only sweeping can get through consistently.

(Samus is more set dependent as to how sweeping helps, though.)

Huge header works best with sweeping so you don't need to waste shots hitting the ball. Otherwise you're taking a risk of getting it hit back at you ala DDD's gordos without any coverage or investing a shot's cool down time into one hit for less damage than you'd normally get out of your jabs.
=/

It does much less damage and goes too high to hit you when hit back to you generally, you can really just camp behind it. Also, unless they have projectiles of their own, or severe disjoint, they will hit themselves while hitting the ball. Many characters just can't get through it reliably.

Ex. Most of ganons, falcons, yoshi, and sheik's aerials/normals get them hurt by the ball if they try to hit it back. They'll hit it back, but take damage in the process.

Huge works well with sweeping, but it doesn't need sweeping to be usable at all.

But, I'm not a WFT user. I'm just here telling you what actual high-level players like and why.

 

[John12346]

Maybe we should re-evaluate our 10 sets one more time. Y'know, before the deadline strikes. Let me toss out my reasoning...

First off, I think we can all agree the most essential sets for Wii Fit are X321. These moves simply provide a very optimized combination of passive aggressive offense, while allowing her to be defensive when the need calls for it. So we have the sets:
2321 1321 3321

What comes next... is the decision to include Huge Header in sets. When I think about it, the default Header is kind of redundant in that it's average at both causing damage and protecting Wii Fit's return back to the stage. Weighted Header is already very good at causing damage when it hits something, and Huge Header is clearly a superior option when you're trying to return to the stage. Plus, it has the added benefit of being much more prominent as an obstruction while onstage. Considering that, I find it quite hard to justify the use of default Header at this point, since the other two perform its tasks so much better. And with that in mind, I believe we can simply take the Header sets and supplant Huge Header into them instead. One for the Sweeping combination and one for the Enriched Salutation set:
3221 2221

At this point, we start to run into the realm of niche movesets. We have the following moves that could be considered for contention in a moveset: Header, Steady Breathing, and Super Hoop.

Super Hoop: From what I've gathered, Super Hoop is a special Wii Fit would want to run if she wanted the ability to go super super deep for edgeguards. Putting this special into a set or two would allow players who have a riskier, more offstage oriented style to utilize that potential to its fullest. In addition, and I know this isn't a COMPLETELY legit reason, but including sets with the much more powerful recovery of Super Hoop would allow Wii Fit to feel much more accessible to entry level players.

As far as sets, Enriched should always be chosen with Super Hoop, as the extra recovery distance now supplements firing the lag-heavier Enriched Sun from many more angles than were previously available with Jumbo Hoop. Both Huge Header and Weighted Header should be chosen for a Super Hoop set. With Huge Header, Wii Fit can cover herself more effectively as she makes her way back to the stage with her now less disjointed recovery. And with Weighted Header, Wii Fit will find herself covering more angles than ever before while edgeguarding, between being able to go deep with the recovery and firing heavy soccer balls down at the opponent, as well. With that in mind, we would have two more sets of:
2311 2211

Steady Breathing: This move, I believe, should always be included in sets that have at least one other special with kill potential(weighted header, basically), since Wii Fit can't enjoy the extra kill potential granted by Deep Breathing anymore. With that in mind, supplanting it into the 332X set would allow Wii Fit to act as even more of a wallbreaker against matchups with hurtbox based projectiles. In addition, having Steady and Sweeping together in a set allows Wii Fit to heal at the quickest possible pace available to her, which can actually cause an added layer of pressure to the opponent in these kinds of matchups. For the same reason, I would also recommend default Sun for the matchups where you're just naturally throwing out a lot of fully charged Salutations. Combined with Steady Breathing, it can definitely prove very beneficial for Wii Fit's survivability in the long run. In addition, if you're using the less vertically inclined Jumbo Hoop, you're also going to want to use the less laggy default Sun so you can fire them while offstage and still make the recovery more consistently:
3323 1323

Header: I'm not 100% sure what to say about this one. I understand that this projectile does compromise the worlds of Weighted and Huge together, but... I do feel the viability of this one compared to the other two is dubious at best. If nothing else, I would agree that there should be a set paired with default Sun and Jumbo Hoop to allow Wii Fit to establish a fast paced wall of offensive momentum. It can be utilized whether onstage or offstage, while recovering, and would definitely serve to help slow down the pace of specific rushdown based matchups:
1121

This would change our previously agreed upon lineup of(organized by priority):
2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 1121 3221 1322 2311 3211
to
2321 1321 3321 3221 2221 3323 1323 1121 2311 2211

I'm not sure how I feel about excluding Header so much from the viable sets, but we did pretty much agree back then that we only really needed one set for it, and there especially doesn't appear to be as much buzz for it as there is for Weighted and Huge, so it should be fine to leave it alone like this.

So should this be the lineup we're going to run with? How about it?

 

[Macchiato]

You guys waited until the last day(suggested by AA, not sure if it's official) to get in on the discussion.
:|



It's pretty good, but tends to pale in comparison to weighted on stage and sits in default's shadow offstage. We have it for two sets actually with variations for hoops.

Sweeping is excellent against most projectiles, but it's most suited against characters that can throw out far reaching hitboxes for free (Luma, fireballs, disjointed fairs, ect.).


lolnah

Highly debatable mu opinion aside, the only character that sweeping might be optimal for of those three is Villager. None of them have projectiles that a charged sweep is worth, and uncharged in the cases where it works would be much better as a fully charged default or enriched.



Huge header works best with sweeping so you don't need to waste shots hitting the ball. Otherwise you're taking a risk of getting it hit back at you ala DDD's gordos without any coverage or investing a shot's cool down time into one hit for less damage than you'd normally get out of your jabs.
=/



I'm pretty sure this was one of the sets that got switched out for the niche. (1322)
We still have 3321. Do you think steady would be better than DB for the combination?

Yeah I think 3323 works better, Sweeping SS and heavy Header can kill already so I dont think we need it

 

[PUK]

How do you kill with sweeping S? With edge guard?

 

[Macchiato]

How do you kill with sweeping S? With edge guard?

Yeah with a edgeguard, if yew can read DI after a fthrow from the ledge, then well yew got it.

 

[John12346]

I'm just doing a final check, since we're near the end here. Are we good with the lineup I proposed as the final version?

This would change our previously agreed upon lineup of(organized by priority):
2321 1321 3321 2323 1323 1121 3221 1322 2311 3211
to
2321 1321 3321 3221 2221 3323 1323 1121 2311 2211

 

[⑨ball]

Looking forward to seeing some xxx3 play.

 

[PixelChaos]

32xx turns out to be my favorite setup, just toss big projectiles everywhere and the ball can combo the opponent if it hits them after hitting the sun salutation, but it's quite situational.

 

[Zeekfox]

Perhaps I should give jumbo hoops a try, though I like WFT's standard Up+B, meaning I use a 3311 setup. I personally love the Sweeping SS + Weighted Header combination because a Sweeper hit near the ledge sets up most characters into a forced low recovery that might get you a Weighted Header kill. And that's a kill option you need sometimes given how difficult WFT's smashes are to use.

I'm not playing at competitions or anything though, so yeah.