Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Mario

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[HeroMystic]

2333
-Fast Fireball (2)
-Gust Cape (3)
-Explosive Punch (3)
-High Pressure FLUDD (3)

1313
-Fireball (1)
-Gust Cape (3)
-Super Jump Punch (1)
-High Pressure FLUDD (3)

1322
-Fireball (1)
-Gust Cape (3)
-Super Jump (2)
-Scalding FLUDD (2)

s'about all I got. The last one is pretty iffy but I know the first two are generally agreed upon.

 

[BSP]

I think 2333 would be the standard tournament Mario loadout. Fast fireballs give him much more presence in neutral, Gust cape is magical, Explosive Jump punch gives him much need damage and KO power, and HPFLUDD is a straight upgrade.

I don't have much exp with customs since they aren't legal down here, but I don't think we'd ever opt for fireball 3 or FLUDD 1. I believe @ A2ZOMG was throwing around the idea of a X223 set, which would focus on edgeguards and give Mario his best recovery potential I believe.

God, this character needs customs so badly.

Edit: Let me throw in the idea of a 2332 setup for Peach specifically, as you should never be gimping her with FLUDD, while Scalding FLUDD can potential shut down a large portion of her game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Alright, since you tagged me, I'll give my two cents. Unfortunately my opinion comes with the disclaimer that I still don't yet have the game.

1322
-Fireball (1)
-Gust Cape (3)
-Super Jump (2)
-Scalding FLUDD (2)

If you run Super Jump, you should always be running HP FLUDD, because chasing deep for a FLUDD KO is a big deal.

Either Cape 2 or 3 are fine on this set from what I'm hypothesizing, but I personally want time to experiment with Shocking Cape when I get the game. There's a bunch of obscure things I want to confirm in terms of KO potential, momentum shifting, and general matchup practicality. As for fireballs, I don't know yet, but I would assume that regular Fireballs aren't as necessary for edgeguarding on this set because you get better chase options with Super Jump, so better neutral with Fast Fireballs probably makes more sense.

Scalding FLUDD is something you should always run with Fast Fireballs, because you want to use both these tools in conjunction to improve Mario's spacing potential against characters he isn't going to edgeguard such as Peach. For a Scalding FLUDD set, I would very specifically run 2312. Regular Up-B I believe is a more valuable anti-air against Peach, and also safer against her edgeguarding, and I don't believe we need EJP to KO Peach when we can outspace her with U-smash and F-smash. I also believe it's very difficult to grab Peach if she plays well due to her floating mechanic, so I wouldn't count on EJP for damage either.

tl:dr

2333, 1333, 2223, 2312 are the sets I would recommend atm for singles. Custom fireball 3 only has uses in teams or FFAs.

 

[MrM]

1333

Covers everything to me

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm just going to say that this project is stupid.
But what the hell, I'll throw just one out.
-2- Fast Fireball
-3- Gust Cape
-2- Super Jump
-3- High-Pressure F.L.U.D.D.

 

[Ultima 3]

Neutral B
Fireball: Bounces 3 times before disappearing. Does 5%. After second bounce, does 4%. When used in the air, bounces twice before disappearing. Does 5%. After it touches the ground, does 4%. Bounces slightly higher when used in the air. Perfect blocking makes it bounce off shield.
Fast Fireball: Shoots straight. Up close 3%. Just outside side smash distance, 2%. Past that 1%. 3% has greater hit stun than 2%, which is greater than 1%.
Fire Orb: Shoots straight. Has lag before and after shooting. Hits a maximum of 8 times. Initial hit does 1%. Each hit, from the 2nd to the 8th does 1.5%. (Even number hits will do 2%, odd number hits will do 1%). Maximum of 12%. Just outside side smash distance. Continues to hit, even when shielding.

Side B
Cape: Does 7%. No hit stun. Reflects projectiles and thrown items. Anything reflected increases in power slightly. Turns opponent around. Stalls descent when used in the air. First use in the air lifts slightly. Every other use stalls.
Shocking Cape: Does 11%. Can cause tripping at low %. Cancels out small projectiles. KO move. Near edge at 120%, in the centre at 160%.
Gust Cape: Does 5%. No hit stun. Has a wind box. Cape reflects projectiles and thrown items. Wind box cancels out small projectiles. Cape turns opponents around. Wind box has a pushback effect. Stalls descent when used in the air. First use in the air lifts a fair bit and moves forward a bit. Every other use lifts slightly.

Up B
Super Jump Punch: Hits a maximum of 6 times. 1st hit 5%, 2nd-5th hit 1%, 6th hit 3%. Maximum 12%. Can be slightly angled. Sudden Death KO move.
Super Jump: Non-attacking. Goes high in the air, can be angled.
Explosive Punch: Hits a maximum of 2 times. 1st hit 8%, 2nd hit 13%. Maximum 21%. KO move at 120%. Doesn't go very high.

Down B
F.L.U.D.D.: Takes 3 seconds to fully charge. Pushback effect on everything hit by the water. Longer it's charged, the greater the distance and pushback effect.
Scalding F.L.U.D.D.: Takes 2 seconds to fully charge. Hits a maximum of 8 times. Each hit is 1% with the 5th hit doing 2%. Maximum 9%. Short range. Longer it's charged, greater the distance, but only slightly. Has hit stun.
High-Pressure F.L.U.D.D.: Takes 5 seconds to fully charge. Pushback effect on everything hit by the water. Longer it's charged, the greater the distance and pushback effect. Has large recoil fully charged. Can be used to move horizontal in the air.

Personally I go for Fireball, Gust Cape, Explosive Punch and High-Pressure F.L.U.D.D
Fast Fireball might be a good option. And obviously Super Jump Punch if you're worried about recovery.
Explosive Punch gives your mother KO option though.
Also, easy 42% rack up. Down Throw, Up tilt twice, Explosive Punch.

So 1333 or 1313
And 2333 or 2313
(Because why would you want regular Cape when you've got Gust Cape like damn.)

 

[The Master of Mario]

2332
-Fast Fireball (2)
-Gust Cape (3)
-Explosive Punch (3)
-scalding FLUDD (2) to trap foes into smashes

 

[ChefKef]

1113
I feel Mario needs his normal fireballs to be viable in the slightest.
I've been slacking on my testing of cape, so I just stick with standard.
I am too risky for my own good offstage, and need this to recover well, but I still use it to finish off combos as a mixup, dealing good damage.
Not really useful for recovery, but still has that possibility, and is very useful for forcing poor recovery, and gimping altogether. (Lookin' at you, .)

 

[ARKills]

I personally like using 2313. The fast fireballs are really useful in neutral and the gust cape and h.p. fludd feel like upgrades to me. I like SJP but I'd swap it out for EJP depending on the matchup.

 

[HeroMystic]

I feel like Scalding FLUDD is being overlooked. I'd definitely take it for MUs where gimping is very unlikely, since it gives him a solid disjointed attack.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I feel like Scalding FLUDD is being overlooked. I'd definitely take it for MUs where gimping is very unlikely, since it gives him a solid disjointed attack.

I completely agree. Scalding FLUDD is very good as an aerial poke in particular, since you can move around with that disjointed hitbox and knock aerial opponents out of the sky (Peach/Jigglypuff). It isn't as safe on the ground due to how opponents can jump over it and the animation lasts for awhile, but it can still be quite useful for when it isn't expected.

Mr. Wizard confirmed customs are on for EVO unless something goes horribly wrong between now and then. It may be worth trying to coordinate directly with him in some fashion.

Better get to work on that testing, guys.

Anyone who trots out that "it's too early to run customs" excuse for upcoming tournaments needs to be set straight. We need hard data within the next month.

I'm expecting EVO will run presets only with no importing for logistical reasons.

Confirmed.

Anyways guys, we should definitely prepare what Mario's 10 sets are going to be before EVO rolls around. Here's what is currently posted @ Amazing Ampharos 's topic:

Mario

1313
1333
2223
2313
2323
2333


The sets I would include are:

2222
Similar to 2223, which already focuses on edgeguarding, only now with Scalding FLUDD as opposed to HPF. This is to be used in matchups where you don't expect to gimp your opponent (Peach), which is why HPF and Gust Cape aren't on the set. Fast Fireballs have great synergy with Scalding FLUDD for additional stage control, and Super Jump has great synergy with Shocking Cape for offstage egdeguarding that's focused on killing as opposed to relying on wind hitboxes for gimps. Overall a very balanced set to be used against Mario's opponents that he can't gimp with his usual tools. The only weakness it has is lacking his usual SJP as an OoS option, and trading it for Super Jump with more synergy for Shocking Cape. (This set is recommended due to overall versatility and reliability)

2332
This set's goal is to focus on applying as much damage as possible on the opponent, before going in for the kill. EJP is for sealing early stocks, and Gust Cape is used to help Mario's recovery since he is running EJP. Because this set focuses on stage control, Fast Fireballs are still used here to serve as a long range poke. Scalding FLUDD provides even more stage control, especially in the air, and also aid to Mario's ability to rack up damage safely over time. Since the targeted opponents of this set are ones that you can't gimp normally (Peach), you have to be careful when using this set, as you yourself are easier to gimp due to EJP, especially against opponents with amazing aerial mobility options. However, such opponents also usually tend to be lightweight, which makes them easier to finish off with EJP. Use with caution, but if you choose to pick a safer set, go with 2222 instead. (This set is recommended, though what fireball you choose is up to you)

1332
Same as the above set, only now with normal fireballs instead of fast fireballs. This set trades speed and long range poking for more versatility, damage, and a better tool for trying to return to the stage after being knocked away. While jumping, Mario can use Scalding FLUDD as an air-to-air projectile, and Fireball as an air-to-ground projectile. Other than that, the fundamentals of this set are pretty much the same as the above. Rack up as much damage as possible, and finish them off with a well-timed EJP. Just don't get gimped. (This set is recommended, though what fireball you choose is up to you)

1312
Like 2222, this set is versatile. It has a weaker recovery and killing potential, but a reliable OoS Option on the stage. This is useful to note, considering how you can use shield to cancel charging the FLUDD, and immediately use a SJP to punish opponents who are trying to attack you during that time. SJP also greatly aids Mario's combos, especially after a Dthrow, Dtilt, or an Uair. Gust Cape is again used for the recovery boost it gives. (This set is nice due to overall versatility and reliability, though the EJP set has more use for normal fireballs due to the damage it builds up, and how the below set plays defense objectively better)

2312
The main goal of this set is this: To harass and keep your opponent off of you as much as possible. Fast Fireballs as a quick long range poke that keeps the opponent in place, Scalding FLUDD as a meaty poke to catch people airdodging/spotdodging and knocks the opponent away, and SJP if the opponent is in your face and as one of the best OoS tools in the entire game. Defense is key with this set, and Mario becomes a pretty solid wall with the tools at his disposal that this set provides. Like 1312, this set has a weaker recovery and killing potential in comparison to sets 2222 and 1332, though it comes with a very reliable OoS Option and more on-stage defense. While it lacks the versatility of 1312 (read set 1332 for an explanation as to why), it trades versatility for speed and having a safer poke. Both are great at what they do, and the choice comes down to what fireball you prefer. (This set is recommended due to overall versatility and reliability, and takes precedence over the above set due to the goals of the Scalding FLUDD sets and how the EJP set appreciates standard fireballs more)


With the above in mind, here's what we get:


Mario

1313
1332 (recommended, though either this or 2332 can be replaced if absolutely necessary)
1333
2222 (recommended)
2223
2312 (recommended)
2313
2323
2332 (recommended, though either this or 1332 can be replaced if absolutely necessary)
2333

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm glad to see team Mario has started on this; definitely keep it going as Mario is not one of the characters for whom it is obvious what the best way to lay his sets out is.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Mario is a character I feel benefits heavily from customs since it improves a majority of his disadvantageous MUs and gives him another reliable finisher in EJP. Personally, I feel that almost all of his customs are useful and there really in no definitive setup he should always be using in every MU.

For edgegaurding purposes, 23X3 is probably the best setup. Fast Fire Ball is a great projectile w/ little lag and is nice for racking up damage. Gust cape and HP Fludd are improved versions of their regular counterparts in their primary objective: edgegaurding. I think any of the Up-B's would work with this set.

2332 is the best setups to improve Mario's neutral game. EJP is a great finisher, has a lot of utility OOS and combos from Mario's D-Throw at low percents (D-Throw --> EJP deals a whopping 26%) as well as some other moves like U-Air. Be wary thoughas Mario's off stage game becomes a lot worse with its shortened recovery distance. Fast Fire balls and Scalding Fliudd are solid spacing tools. Gust Cape's primary use is edgegaurding character w/ poor recoveries like Little Mac. Shocking cape may also work for this set, but I haven't tested it yet.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

2313 should definitely be considered among the go-to custom movesets. Fast Fireball is a good interrupting tool that comes out much faster than the standard fireball while doing significantly less damage, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem since none of the Fireball variations have any K.O. power at any percentage (though Fire Orb is good for racking up damage). Gust Cape is no doubt a straight upgrade of the Super Cape, retaining its reflecting properties and possessing a windbox that blows opponents away a good deal while possessing lowered damage (again, not that the Super Cape had any K.O. power). Super Jump Punch is overlooked quite because its the basic variant of the move, but it does have hitboxes all throughout the move that can check edgeguards or serve as a reliable attack (not as powerful as the Explosive Jump Punch but its more guaranteed to hit) while still possessing some maneuverability (not as much as the Super Jump) which makes it a safer recovery move than its custom variations by default (ironically). High-Pressure F.L.U.D.D. is a straight upgrade of F.L.U.D.D., and even though its charge up time is longer it's generally negligible in comparison to the much more powerful pushing effect that the fully charged move has.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Seems to me like there are two Fireballs worth considering:
1 - Fireball, with it's new low drop trajectory, useful for ground control and approaches,
vs
2 - Fast Fireball, the straight horizontal trajectory threatening anyone trying air approaches.

I find myself leaning more towards 2 - Fast Fireball, as it gives Mario a way of discouraging short hops and sniping double jumps offstage. They each have their uses though, and I can see benefits of switching them depending on the matchup.

 

[HeroMystic]

@ Amazing Ampharos

We've pretty much all decided on these sets.

1311
1333
2212
2223
2232
2233
2312
2313
2332
2333

This thread has the discussion as to why these were chosen: http://smashboards.com/threads/evo-legalized-customs-so-lets-talk-about-them.392000/

Unless further experimentation changes our mind, we'll be sticking with this.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Thanks for putting it together, but I'm a bit surprised that there are so few neutral-1 sets. Do you guys mostly agree that neutral-2 is usually better? I'm also surprised that 2313 isn't included; that seems like a set a lot of players might want to use and probably better than 2312.

If you guys agree with it, we can let it rock, but you guys still have some time to tweak if you need to think things over a bit more.

 

[HeroMystic]

Thanks for putting it together, but I'm a bit surprised that there are so few neutral-1 sets. Do you guys mostly agree that neutral-2 is usually better? I'm also surprised that 2313 isn't included; that seems like a set a lot of players might want to use and probably better than 2312.

If you guys agree with it, we can let it rock, but you guys still have some time to tweak if you need to think things over a bit more.

2313 is included on the list.

The consensus on Fireball is it should only be used over Fast Fireball if Mario can't compete on ground vs ground combat (i.e, Mario vs Megaman or Mario vs Little Mac). What many don't take into account is Default Fireball has a high cooldown. The cooldown forces it to be strictly used for controlling space while on stage. It's slow moving nature also makes it easily powershielded, which makes the benefits of it's higher damage (which is very good for a projectile) a negligible benefit.

While Fireball is better for edgeguarding and covering your landings, Fast Fireball makes zoning and combating zoning characters much easier.

I'm all for more discussion but the users seem to have come to an agreement.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Heh, I misread 2313 as 2323. Sorry, my bad; this list makes sense to me.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Mario:

1311, 1333, 2212, 2223, 2232, 2233, 2312, 2313, 2332, 2333

This post is pretty much just a formality to acknowledge that, as we move into the final stretch of the public discourse, that what you guys have been doing is acknowledged. If you guys decide on any changes before March 17, we'll use whatever you cook up. If not, we'll run with this.

 

[M@v]

@ Amazing Ampharos I feel 1313 is really important(probably his best overall moveset); moreso than 1311. I have no clue why people are saying 1311 over 1313, as high pressure fludd is basically a straight upgrade to normal fludd as long as you short hop it. Also, High pressure FLUDD has normal fludd's power at about 50% charge. 1333 is really good too (You have it on there already). I also want to say I think 1212 is a good choice, maybe even better than 2212.

Basically, The 3 I think are really good are 1333, 1313, and 1212. I feel fireball 2 can be substituted in those as preference, so that gives you:

1333
1313
1212
2333
2313
2212

the remaining 4 slots, im not real sure of. IMO, I think fireball 3 is actually ok in teams, so having things like 3333 and 3313 available in team matches would be nice. If you put those in that leaves 2 more.

If any marios would tell me why 1311 is on here over 1313, please speak up, because I see 0 reason why is is. I also feel 1212 deserves a spot along with 2212(which is on there already.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

@ Amazing Ampharos I feel 1313 is really important; moreso than 1311. I have no clue why people are saying 1311 over 1313, as high pressure fludd is basically a straight upgrade to normal fludd as long as you short hop it. 1333 is really good too (You have it on there already). I also want to say I think 1212 is a good choice, maybe even better than 2212.

Basically, The 3 I think are really good are 1333, 1313, and 1212. I feel fireball 2 can be substituted in those as preference, so that gives you:

1333
1313
1212
2333
2313
2212

the remaining 4 slots, im not real sure of.

If any marios would tell me why 1311 is on here over 1313, please speak up, because I see 0 reason why is is. I also feel 1212 deserves a spot along with 2212(which is on there already.

If custom teams become popular, I think fireball 3 is actually ok in teams, so having things like 3333 or 3313 available in team matches would be nice.

You've been missing out on a lot, lol

Mario

1212
1213
1312
1313
1332
2212
2213
2232
2312
2332

These are the current sets that have been decided on in HeroMystic's topic


Unfortunately, we didn't have room for 1311 or 1333.

Basically for 1311, the idea was for that set to counter Little Mac and Ness, where the faster charge time and additional initial range made it easier to gimp these two characters. And for 1333, the set was designed to counter King DeDeDe and Link, both being heavy characters whom wield projectiles. Standard Fireball was to contest their projectiles in the air, Gust Cape to mess with their recoveries and projectiles (and to add to Mario's own recovery), EJP because they are larger characters and would dislike the additional damage/knockback it provided, and lastly HP FLUDD to put them in an unfavorable position should they be near the ledge (and in Link's case to stop him from projectile spamming).

However, because we didn't have enough room, we decided to opt for 1313 instead. Which covers all 4 characters to a pretty good degree, although not as well as 1311 or 1333. However, 1313 or 1332 can be used in the Link/D3 match (even though Scalding FLUDD doesn't work on Gordos), and 1313 or Mario's default 1111 can be used against Little Mac or Ness.

Lastly, we got rid of all of the X3X3 sets (besides 1313), because having two gimping options on a single set was a bit overcompensating for most matchups. When you could have been running Shocking Cape for KO potential, or Scalding FLUDD for damage/zoning potential instead. 1313 was picked because default Fireball has more synergy with two gimping options, because it can hit opponents who recover low (such as Ness).

 

[M@v]

Yeah I feel 1313 is the most critical one to have, as its his most well balanced one overall. 1333 is meant for matchups where you need a little more killpower, so you sub in upb3. 1212 is the anti-sonic/characters that FLUDD sucks against moveset.

So right now you guys have the 1313 and 1212, but not 1333 right? Also, I think both gimp options are necessary in several matchups, especially to edgeguard sheik, a really character to be able to edgeguard.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

1313 and 1312 are the two most important sets.

Why was 1312 not included to begin with? I think it's literally Mario's best set. I wouldn't use anything else other than maybe 1313 if I somehow decide scalding fludd is worse than high pressure.

 

[HeroMystic]

Why was 1312 not included to begin with? I think it's literally Mario's best set. I wouldn't use anything else other than maybe 1313 if I somehow decide scalding fludd is worse than high pressure.

Too much hype over Fast Fireball imo.

Generally, I'm glad that more default fireball sets have been added.

M@V, I would suggest looking into Scalding FLUDD more. Plenty of Custom tourney goers are saying it's Mario's best custom addition.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Yeah I feel 1313 is the most critical one to have, as its his most well balanced one overall. 1333 is meant for matchups where you need a little more killpower, so you sub in upb3. 1212 is the anti-sonic/characters that FLUDD sucks against moveset.

So right now you guys have the 1313 and 1212, but not 1333 right?

Correct.

Most people are currently under the agreement that Super Jump Punch and Scalding FLUDD are mostly better than their other variants because of the vast amount of options they provide and/or cover. Super Jump Punch because of its overall safeness, ability to rack up damage, be used in combos, frame 3 invincibility, use as an OoS option, and overall a solid recovery move. Scalding FLUDD because of its ability to function as a disjointed hitbox (something Mario otherwise lacks for the most part), which can easily shut down approaches and build up damage. It is especially good for shutting down aerial approaches. One great example being Peach, a character who loves being in the air and doesn't usually care for his other FLUDDs. It also comes with the nice bonus of being able to counter spotdodging and airdodging because it is a meaty hitbox.

Explosive Jump Punch and HP FLUDD are good but have more seldom uses. EJP because it is a lot more unsafe if wiffed and is a worse recovery, and HP FLUDD because in a customs environment a good portion of recoveries are going to improve across the board. Plus, because Scalding FLUDD builds up damage, it also gets opponents closer to KO percents for stuff like EJP/Shocking Cape, or Mario's usual kill moves. Mario's damage output, at least in regards to the damage of the attacks and not the frequency at which you can pull them off, is somewhat low. Somewhere around ~8.5% if you count every single attack iirc. And because of how Mario's usual KO options aren't the most reliable and can be kind of predictable, Scalding FLUDD's ability to let Mario rack up more damage and keep him safe help remedy this situation by a pretty good degree.

Default Cape is only especially good for the Mega Man and Pac-Man matchup, basically where you absolutely want a true reflector to counter projectiles. Default FLUDD is only especially good for Little Mac and Ness. And Super Jump is...mostly super niche. It could serve some use in certain matchups, such as Villager/Greninja where going deep to edgeguard them would matter, but because it relies heavily on Shocking Cape and has many drawbacks (you lose an OoS/combos/etc), there was no room to make a set for it.

Gust Cape and Shocking Cape, along with Fireball and Fast Fireball, are all equally viable. And lastly, as for Fire Orb...it could be useful for teams. But these sets are aimed for EVO, which isn't going to have doubles. And in singles, it is just bad. The hitbox is smaller than the fire animation, and it is actually somewhat easy to get out of even if you manage to hit with it because of the slow startup/ending lag. And one of its prized uses for edgeguarding isn't really all what it is cracked up to be, because it misses a good portion of opponents whom are even just slightly under the ledge or are even hanging on to it. So while it can definitely be useful for teams since it can set up for some free kills, the 1v1 sets currently take precedence since they can be used anywhere and are viable for a lot more situations in general.


Of course, this is all just initial impressions for everything. But hopefully this brings you up to speed

1313 and 1312 are the two most important sets.

Why was 1312 not included to begin with? I think it's literally Mario's best set. I wouldn't use anything else other than maybe 1313 if I somehow decide scalding fludd is worse than high pressure.

Sets 2313 and 2312 existed prior, and Fast Fireball was seen as the more popular/slightly better alternative. However, after listening to more opinions from people who prefer default Fireball, I see them both as having equal use. And it comes down to player preference, and what matchups you are in. SolidSense's list was very fair, so it is now what is currently being used.

Sooo pretty much what HeroMystic said

Despite prefering FF myself, I am honestly glad that there are more default Fireball sets. Since that did bug me a little bit in the past. But now, we have a wide range of sets for almost all players and matchups. And I like things which can make the most amount of people as possible happy.

 

[HeroMystic]

Just wanna say I highly recommend 1312 (2312 if you prefer Fast Fireball) to be the default custom set for Mario for any high level players. Gust Cape is better than Super Cape and Scalding FLUDD does so much for Mario's spacing game that I find it hard to go back to default FLUDD.

 

[M@v]

One thing I think everyone can agree on, regardless if you think scalding fludd or high pressure is better, is that there is basically 0 reason to use the default fludd when customs are allowed. Scalding has unique properties that help for spacing and matchups where the opponent isn't harmed much by fludd edgeguards, and high pressure is basically a direct upgrade to normal fludd since you can half charge it to get the normal fludd knockback, and short hopping it negates its recoil when you use it fully charged.

 

[HeroMystic]

What Default FLUDD has over the others is ease of control, as HPFLUDD and Scalding FLUDD are much harder to angle. That might have some value but I really doubt it since it lacks the raw power behind the other two customs.

HPFLUDD definitely has it's uses and I have the 1313 set for it on my 3DS to use whenever. I haven't found the need to get out of Scalding FLUDD yet, but I may try it on the spacies next time I'm in a tournament.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

One thing I think everyone can agree on, regardless if you think scalding fludd or high pressure is better, is that there is basically 0 reason to use the default fludd when customs are allowed. Scalding has unique properties that help for spacing and matchups where the opponent isn't harmed much by fludd edgeguards, and high pressure is basically a direct upgrade to normal fludd since you can half charge it to get the normal fludd knockback, and short hopping it negates its recoil when you use it fully charged.

I agree. And since Scalding FLUDD and HP FLUDD are still quite effective in the Ness/Little Mac matchups, there's pretty much no point to using the default FLUDD whatsoever.



My list of custom viability:

Super Jump Punch/Scalding FLUDD > Shocking Cape/Gust Cape > Default Fireball/Fast Fireball/HP FLUDD > Explosive Jump Punch > Super Cape > Super Jump/Fire Orb > default FLUDD



Super Jump Punch and Scalding FLUDD are both extremely powerful, provide you with a wide array of options, and cover a wide array of the opponent's options. In most circumstances, you always want to run these. Super Jump Punch is an amazing OoS move, solid recovery, amazing combo finisher, and is very safe. Scalding FLUDD is excellent for walling opponents out, applying pressure, setting up combos or acting as a combo finisher, racks up damage, and is an extremely safe disjointed move that has the most range out of any of Mario's attacking moves besides the fireballs. It is especially great at beating aerial approaches, and countering spotdodging and airdodging. Both of these moves are amazing for offensive and defensive purposes, making them the best custom moves at Mario's disposal. In fact, probably the best moves he has in general out of his entire kit.

Your choice of cape is probably the largest determining factor on how your playstyle is going to be. Shocking Cape is offensive in nature, and not only gives Mario a solid disjoint KO move (and a replacement Fsmash somewhat), but also a great KO move in the air. Something that he otherwise lacks. For Gust Cape, it is defensive in nature, both aiding in Mario's recovery and the ability to gimp the opponent, or at least offer him some more stage control.

Default Fireball and Fast Fireball, like the capes, largely determine Mario's overall role and matchup strengths. But the effects these have on matchups are less prominent than the capes. Default Fireball is offensive in nature, dealing more damage and is great for conditioning. It also covers low recoveries, and is a great air-to-ground move for Mario to have. It is more effective against slower opponents. Fast Fireball is defensive in nature, trading an air-to-ground move for an air-to-air move. It shines in its ability to disrupt opponents, particularly in the air. And while it might not do a lot of damage, it leaves Mario much less vulnerable in comparison to the default Fireball. It is more effective against fast opponents.

HP FLUDD is defensive in nature, though it is somewhat outshined by Scalding FLUDD in that it can be useful for both offensive and defensive reasons. Still, it is a good move to have against those opponents that are easy for Mario to gimp. It also has solid synergy with Shocking Cape in particular, granting you both a gimping option as well as a stage-control option which pushes opponents closer to the edge to be finished off by a Shocking Cape. Though with recoveries across the board most likely improving in a customs environment, its maximum effectiveness is a bit in the dark at the moment.

Explosive Jump Punch, like HP FLUDD, is outclassed. This time by Super Jump Punch. Explosive Jump Punch is obviously offensive in nature. However, unlike HP FLUDD, EJP has a lot more weaknesses to consider. Recovery, weaker OoS, you lose the ability to change your angle, you lose out on some combos, and you become more punishable with this move. HP FLUDD doesn't have these weaknesses, so this puts EJP lower on the list than HP FLUDD. Plus, EJP faces some competition in the form of Shocking Cape, which is easier to utilize in terms of synergy with Mario's moveset and custom sets. EJP is mainly effective against opponents with large hurtboxes and slow speed.

---

Here come the niche moves. Moves that can prove to be useful in certain matchups, but not enough to warrant sets for them.

Super Cape is the best true reflector Mario has, and is especially great when fighting Mega Man or Pac-Man. However, you can just run Mario's default set against these two characters. As in most matchups, Mario doesn't particularly need a true reflector, because Shocking Cape and Gust Cape both do well at covering some of Mario's weaknesses while providing him with additional strengths.

Super Jump is more niche than Super Cape, because it almost absolutely relies on Shocking Cape in order to be effective. It also removes some of Mario's best options: combos and OoS in particular. Where-as for Fire Orb, it is less outclassed by the other fireballs than Super Jump is compared to Super Jump Punch, picking it makes you lose out on Mario's ranged options. Plus, it is very slow, and the hitbox isn't as great as it seems. It does have a fair amount of interesting combo utility though, but it isn't reliable enough to be considered as a part of Mario's main sets. However, this only really applies to 1 vs 1 scenarios though. Fire Orb, in particular, would jump up a few tiers in a team battles environment.

---

Lastly, default FLUDD. There's nothing really wrong with the move, per-se, but it is completely outclassed by the other two variants in almost every single way. It doesn't offer Mario much in terms of patching up his weaknesses, and the additions it gives to his strengths are barely noticeable. Especially when compared to Scalding FLUDD and HP FLUDD. It doesn't offer Mario any new niches, outside of maaaaybe against Little Mac and Ness. Even then though, people still find uses for Scalding FLUDD/HP FLUDD in those matches. So it really doesn't serve any purpose. Even less-so than Super Jump and Fire Orb, both of which are incredibly niche themselves (Super Cape less-so). So, ultimately, it might be Mario's only custom move that is, for most intents and purposes, useless for competitive purposes.

 

[BSP]

HP FLUDD is defensive in nature, though it is somewhat outshined by Scalding FLUDD in that it can be useful for both offensive and defensive reasons.

Jumping offstage to HPFLUDD people past the blastzone after knocking them off isn't something that should be overlooked as an offensive option.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ally did that once with Normal FLUDD (aided by Smashville's platform), so I wouldn't count it out since HP FLUDD is much more powerful.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Jumping offstage to HPFLUDD people past the blastzone after knocking them off isn't something that should be overlooked as an offensive option.

Primarily defensive is what I mean. Sorry for the confusion.

Every move in a fighting game has a set range of both offensive and defensive qualities. When I say something is offensive or defensive, what I am actually referring to is what their primary function is. And for HP FLUDD, it is a primarily defensive option, as it focuses on limiting your opponent's options (controlling space and gimping) in contrast to doing something that greatly expands upon your offensive options (combo potential/damage potential/etc).


Actually, I was planning on making a topic soon that goes over this in regards to Mario's custom moves. So everyone can expect that later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[BSP]

IDK, I think using it in an aggressive manner is pretty effective. I think it even scales with rage.

 

[Galaxian]

So what are reccomended movesets?

I think 1313 is a good set, though 2313 might be okay. Maybe 2323 if recovery is an issue?

Talk to me. I need to get more customs practice anyhow.

 

[HeroMystic]

1312
1313
2312
2313

 

[Galaxian]

1312
1313
2312
2313

Is Scalding FLUDD even good? I've heard okay things about it.

 

[HeroMystic]

Scalding FLUDD is Mario's best custom, period.

 

[Galaxian]

Scalding FLUDD is Mario's best custom, period.

Really? I don't see the upsides in it, but I guess having an extra-long ranged attack is a plus for Mario. I'll experiment with it more, maybe it'll help in MUs where Mario is getting camped against.