Bones0
Smash Legend
Why can't you ASDI down on attacks that send you at a 45 degree angle?
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- Thread starter DtJ Jungle
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Bones0
Smash Legend
Wow, that's interesting. Is it only attacks that send at exactly 45? Could you list a few of the attacks that have such an angle?
Also, I thought Forbidden DI only applied to SDI, not ASDI. I thought it was always possible to ASDI towards the ground.
Fox/Falco/Sheik nair/bair/jab, falco laser, needles probably. I think all jabs actually. According to Magus it applies for A/SDI and DI to any attack that sends at <=0 angle if you are grounded. I don't know though; you can certainly sdi the jab up when it sends at 0, but it won't make you land cancel on ground when you reach it, so I don't know if you stay grounded even though your position is quite a bit above stage.
Edit: The reason you can sdi jabs often is that they do enough bkb to send at 45° even at 0%, against light chars at least. If you crouch a sheik or fox jab at very low percents, you can't sdi it. Also it seems that you will only land out of the hitstun if you asdi to the ground. Fox jab at 0% sends you nowhere, but you are still aerial while your feet definitely seem to touch the ground.
Edit: The reason you can sdi jabs often is that they do enough bkb to send at 45° even at 0%, against light chars at least. If you crouch a sheik or fox jab at very low percents, you can't sdi it. Also it seems that you will only land out of the hitstun if you asdi to the ground. Fox jab at 0% sends you nowhere, but you are still aerial while your feet definitely seem to touch the ground.
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VegiLohrd
Smash Apprentice
typical dash dance stuff, running toward them then wd back to bait out attacks that sorta thing. I know some falcos like to laser approach then immediately back off, then laser approach and combo off of that.
Mind games are usually best applied when you are confident that you know what your opponent will do. A good example would be when they are shielding. If you hit their shield, what do they do?
Do they always just stay in their shield? Try just grabbing right after you hit their shield.
Do they always try to shield grab (or at least often do)? Try spacing outside their grab range with attacks on their shield (and then punish if they try to grab you).
Do they always jump out and attack? Maybe this is what they do when you land behind them, so look to do a fast punish on them when you land behind them. A good option for a lot of characters for this would be to just up-tilt.
There are many things they can do, but try to pick out the ones they do too much and punish them for it (by baiting out the same responses that they've been doing).
Leirkov
Smash Cadet
Can anyone properly explain shielding to me? Obviously I know how shielding works, but sometimes holding shield, and getting hit (with a full shield), the move still connects despite that hitbox being covered by the shield. Is that because it's not fully covered (like a "right-held shield"), or do some moves ignore shielding? For example, I believe I got F-tilted by Marth despite angling it to cover the hitbox of his sword.
Only grabs ignore shields. A few characters have special grabs like Kirby neutral B and Yoshi neutral B, but in any case, Marth f-tilt is not a grab.
If a hitbox connects with one of your hurtboxes and doesn't overlap with the shield at all, then it will hit as though you weren't shielding. I can't say for certain what happened because I did not see it, but my guess is that your shield must have missed a part of the attack. One thing about Marth's f-tilt is that it hits very low for the first hitboxes. It is most likely that in this first part of the attack that it hit your foot and not your shield. I hope this helps.
*Hitboxes are where an attack hits and hurtboxes are any part of your character that can be hit. Just in case you weren't familiar with the terminology.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
whats the difference between a hit box and a hurt box? and also am i supposed to see the start of marth's jumping animation when i wave dash or am i doing the inputs to slowly? whats a meteor cancel and how to i most effectively implement it in my play style. I'm really new to the smash community 
Xyzz
Smash Champion
1) hitbox is a bit ambivalent, it can be used to refer to the red bubbles in the hitbox-gifs indicating where the damaging parts of a move are, and the yellow bubbles which indicate where a character can be hurt... which is meant should usually be clear from the context. Hurt box is used if you want to make clear that you're referring to the yellow bubbles.
2) a WD is jumping and then airdodging the very frame you leave the ground... so yes, you will always see the jumpsquat animation. You shouldn't really gain vertical distance, though... just compare how yours looks vs how good Marth's look (like PPMD, PPU or M2k)
3) Attacks whose base trajectory sends you straight dow are called meteor smash, and when you get hit by those you can cancel the downwards momentum by jumping or using your up b. Well, use that whenever you get send down by one of those, to survive and you've implemented them, i guess haha. It's really just learning the timing (and it can be helpful to learn the situations where people will attempt one of those, so you don't get caught by surprise)
2) a WD is jumping and then airdodging the very frame you leave the ground... so yes, you will always see the jumpsquat animation. You shouldn't really gain vertical distance, though... just compare how yours looks vs how good Marth's look (like PPMD, PPU or M2k)
3) Attacks whose base trajectory sends you straight dow are called meteor smash, and when you get hit by those you can cancel the downwards momentum by jumping or using your up b. Well, use that whenever you get send down by one of those, to survive and you've implemented them, i guess haha. It's really just learning the timing (and it can be helpful to learn the situations where people will attempt one of those, so you don't get caught by surprise)
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Thanx. i guess I've been meteor canceling the whole time :3
Naut
Smash Rookie
I suppose this is a newbie question, but how do you play against crouch-cancel? Even if my spacing seems perfect I feel like I always take some sort of damage, whether it be grab, tilt, d-smash, whatever. If makes a difference, I play sheik and usually approach with shffl'ed fair or dash attack. I've tried to use aerial needles into grab or tilt or something of the sort, but i'm not very good at that yet.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Run up to them and shield or WD back.
Naut
Smash Rookie
So basically you're saying i need to convert off of their crouch cancel with a grab or hope they'll whiff an attack and punish with a tilt or something?
Bones0
Smash Legend
They are reacting to your approach by holding down and attacking when you are within proximity. If you shield their attack, you should have no problem being able to attack OoS or WD OoS and grab their lag. You can also just bait them into attacking by pretending you are approaching and then backing off (maybe try SHing at them and then DJing before you are within range of their attacks). Basically any time you realize your opponent has an automatic response to something, you should try to bait their automatic response and punish it.
Naut
Smash Rookie
Unless it's not an automatic response and is instead a reactionary response. If it is a reactionary response, then i have to hope that they have a lapse in concentration so i can bait them into an attack (because running up and shielding will either yield a grab from them, or simply a retreat), or I have to have impeccable spacing (which, to be honest, i'm not very good at).
Bones0
Smash Legend
Melee is too fast. They can react to you moving towards them, but they can't react to being within range of their attack and know if you are going to shield or not (shield comes out frame 1). If that kind of reaction was possible, you would just see Marth players standing still and dtilting/utilting players on reaction. The reality is that if you DD in front of that Marth, he will either throw out an attack in anticipation or get grabbed/hit before he can react. You do need impeccable spacing and reaction vs. high level players, but I doubt that your opponent is at that level where he can just CC and beat everything you do on reaction because your spacing isn't tight enough.
You can also just sit back and camp with needles to make them approach you, but I think that's ignoring the problem in your game.
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Thrilllho
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2013
- Messages
- 17
sorry if this question has already been asked, if it has please just redirect me. what do if my opponent always just waits for me to aproach then shield grabs me? i cannot seem to trick him or bait him. it is enraging an a nice couple of options to punish would be great.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Run up and grab them, or space an attack so that you can hit their shield without getting grabbed. Like I was explaining in my last post, they cannot just sit still and grab on reaction. If you dash dance in front of them, they will either throw out a bad grab or get hit before they can react.
CeLL
Smash Lord
Can you SDI out of Fox's dair?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Sure. If a lot of hits connect, asdi might also suffice to avoid a shine (i don't think it's feasible to escape grabs even with sdi)
Bones0
Smash Legend
You can definitely SDI out of grab range, especially if you just SDI behind them. Drill grab doesn't even combo anyway.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Whoa, i wonder why i never tried to buffer spotdodge to get out of that, haha.
CeLL
Smash Lord
Isn't buffering not present in Melee?
Also, on an unrelated note, is there a way to practice meteor cancelling (by jumping, not with the up-b) on your own?
On another unrelated note, are the freeze frames of attacks the same on shield as they are if they actually connect?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
you can buffer a few things. Notably everything that can be done by holding shield and the c-stick (jump, roll and spotdodge). Keep pressing them and they'll happen as soon as you're actionable.
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Monkley6
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2009
- Messages
- 356
I'm not sure how to practice meteor cancels on your own, but with regard to "freeze-frames"... The frames that you freeze when you connect an attack on a character or shield are called Hitlag. Hitlag is different on shields than not. That's why people learn their timings for l-canceling against shields as well as normally.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I think hitlag is the same length for hurtboxes as well as shields, but I could be wrong. I also think it is longer if you hit a person with respawn/star invincibility, so I wouldn't practice that way in Training Mode. Bowser on a high handicap is the easiest way of practicing with hitlag.
Bones0 is correct except that modifiers don't apply to shield hitlag. Defender may get more or less stun if he gets hit: if crouched, defender gets 1/2 hitlag, and if the hitbox is electric, defender gets 1,5 times the hitlag. But for the attacker hitlag is always the same.
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Kadano
Magical Express
There are very few true buffers in Melee, one of them is for jumping out of hitstun. IIRC it‘s 20 frames before the hitstun, so if you press Y 20 frames before hitstun ends and let go of it immediately, you will jump out.
The buffer-like effect you have with the C-stick is not true buffering, but rather what some have called “hold-buffering“. If you are in shield stun for 20 frames, holding L/R and the C-stick in any direction will trigger the corresponding action (roll left / roll right / jump / spot dodge) as soon as the shield stun has ended. If you hold the C-stick for 19 frames of the shield stun and let go of it at the last one, you will stay in your shield, though.
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SSS
Smash Ace
Is there a matchup chart that's like, legit?
Xyzz
Smash Champion
SSS
Smash Ace
that's what i figurednope. There isn't really one that I would even call "reasonable"
so like, for the characters considered tournament relevant, what are their worst matchups?
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Xyzz
Smash Champion
fox: even or better against the whole cast
falco: even or better against the whole cast
sheik: puff isn't too hot, but doable
marth: sheik is slightly favored, but at the highest level it's no big deal
puff: fox isn't too hot, but doable
peach: puff is really hard, might require a secondary at the higest level
cf: sheik is hard
ICs: peach is really hard, might require a secondary at the highest level
keep in mind that there'll always be some personal opinion in those lists... the numbers aren't set in stone
falco: even or better against the whole cast
sheik: puff isn't too hot, but doable
marth: sheik is slightly favored, but at the highest level it's no big deal
puff: fox isn't too hot, but doable
peach: puff is really hard, might require a secondary at the higest level
cf: sheik is hard
ICs: peach is really hard, might require a secondary at the highest level
keep in mind that there'll always be some personal opinion in those lists... the numbers aren't set in stone
Bones0
Smash Legend
Matchups are not like type strengths or weaknesses in Pokemon. They develop and change over time, so even if it was possible to compile an "accurate" matchup chart, by the time you got any good the matchups will be different. At the highest level, an individual is more than capable of swaying an entire matchup just based on his own innovations. PP is a great example of this as he is virtually the only Falco to ever perform competently against an equally skilled Jigglypuff or Peach, yet very few people consider those matchups as disadvantageous. That, to me, is ridiculous, but people have been told for years the spacies have "no losing matchups", and in general they get lumped together when really their matchup difficulty tends to be polar opposite.
If you are picking up a secondary from the top 10 characters, you should just focus on picking one that you can play with a much different style than your main. If you run into a troublesome opponent in tournament, changing up your style as dramatically as possible usually gives you the greatest chance of winning with another character. A lot of people that play both spacies play them very similarly so they end up switching and getting punished by the same things (that doesn't mean you can't play both spacies, just make sure you have distinct styles for each).
If you are picking up a secondary from the top 10 characters, you should just focus on picking one that you can play with a much different style than your main. If you run into a troublesome opponent in tournament, changing up your style as dramatically as possible usually gives you the greatest chance of winning with another character. A lot of people that play both spacies play them very similarly so they end up switching and getting punished by the same things (that doesn't mean you can't play both spacies, just make sure you have distinct styles for each).
Monkley6
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2009
- Messages
- 356
Why do I feel like I've seen people talking about practicing l-canceling against shielded opponents then? If not hitlag, what could be the difference? Maybe I'm just whacked-out altogether.
Well if your opponent light shields or angles shield, you sometimes hit him higher up off the ground, and that makes the timing slightly later. So you need to take into account at which height you are when you hit your opponent. Practicing hitting ganon / bowser on handicap should be sufficient for that.
Hey,
I have got a question concerning Smash-DI into tech and SDI (out of Fox U-Air e.g.).
1. I read most of the threads about SDI (and ASDI) but want to know exactly what to press at what moment:
If I get knocked offstage and recover with Up-B (e.g. Marth and Falco/Fox), do I always(?) have to SDI to be able to tech?
Are there 2 different ways of teching?
-> Press R/L, THEN SDI into stages (to avoid that the hitstun overlays with the R/L input?)
-> SDI, then press R/L
And what about quarter circle DI and doublestick DI??
2. Just which inputs do I have to make (and when) to SDI out of Fox uair?
Would someone be so kind and explain it to me?
I am really fast with my fingers, but just do not know what to input exactly, since I am new to the competitive scene.
Best regards,
DaLung
I have got a question concerning Smash-DI into tech and SDI (out of Fox U-Air e.g.).
1. I read most of the threads about SDI (and ASDI) but want to know exactly what to press at what moment:
If I get knocked offstage and recover with Up-B (e.g. Marth and Falco/Fox), do I always(?) have to SDI to be able to tech?
Are there 2 different ways of teching?
-> Press R/L, THEN SDI into stages (to avoid that the hitstun overlays with the R/L input?)
-> SDI, then press R/L
And what about quarter circle DI and doublestick DI??
2. Just which inputs do I have to make (and when) to SDI out of Fox uair?
Would someone be so kind and explain it to me?
I am really fast with my fingers, but just do not know what to input exactly, since I am new to the competitive scene.
Best regards,
DaLung
1. You do not always have to SDI. You only need to do so if your character is not close enough to the wall to ASDI and then tech.Hey,
I have got a question concerning Smash-DI into tech and SDI (out of Fox U-Air e.g.).
1. I read most of the threads about SDI (and ASDI) but want to know exactly what to press at what moment:
If I get knocked offstage and recover with Up-B (e.g. Marth and Falco/Fox), do I always(?) have to SDI to be able to tech?
Are there 2 different ways of teching?
-> Press R/L, THEN SDI into stages (to avoid that the hitstun overlays with the R/L input?)
-> SDI, then press R/L
And what about quarter circle DI and doublestick DI??
2. Just which inputs do I have to make (and when) to SDI out of Fox uair?
Would someone be so kind and explain it to me?
I am really fast with my fingers, but just do not know what to input exactly, since I am new to the competitive scene.
Best regards,
DaLung
I think you have to press R/L before you get hit - up to 20-[hit lag] frames before. Hit lag is that moment where your character and your opponent both freeze for a very short period when one player hits another. You can see it easily with Ganon's down-air and Samus's fully charged neutral B. Speaking of hit lag, this is the time where you can SDI. If you input a direction during this time, you will SDI in that direction (you can't hold a direction and if you're holding one, you have to release to neutral and then press the direction you want or rotate 90 degrees). ASDI is a free mini SDI that you get by holding a direction on the stick and it happens on the first frame you start moving from the attack. This is often sufficient for wall-teching while recovering.
Quarter circle DI uses the 90 degree rotation method as a way to get 2 SDI inputs after being hit only once. It is not super applicable, but I think it is good against Fox's up-air (though I've never used it, so I don't actually know). while doing ASDI, if you hold the C-stick and the analog stick, the game will use the C-stick input over the analog stick. However, the analog stick will be used for your DI. Holding both allows you to ASDI one way while DIing another. I also don't use that technique and I'm not exactly sure where it is applicable.
2. To get out of fox's up-air, you have to SDI during the first hit (usually behind him if he is jumping towards you). To do so, you have to move the analog stick to the side as soon as you are hit by the first hit of his up-air.
I hope this helps.