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Official 3.5 Bowser changes thread.

Abeebo

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The way I see it, Fsmash is probably the most raw, extreme move in the game. It's not obscenely slow like some other megaton moves, it causes major damage, knockback, shield damage, pushback, and it's heavily armored. It only takes one of these to confirm on hit or shield to instantly threaten your opponent's stock or even the win. They better hope you don't land more than that. It's a rare option, but we're talking the A-bomb of smash moves. Grim Reaper's touch. 1 ton anvil falling on your little tictac head. And we have it.
I don't know if it's the quickest killing fsmash, but it still has a lot of powers.
 

Xanthyr

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The forward smash is a favorite of mine. It is easily avoided, there is no doubt, but the punish you can throw with it, is awesome. I honestly use it too much, but I still persist that perfect waveland into fsmash is too good to pass up. It isn't guaranteed by any means, but if you read right, it's all the style you need.
 

Mr. Bones

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Forward Smash is still a great anti-spacing tool. Even in fast-pace play, if you throw it in as a mix-up, you can use it to dodge and destroy. Just gotta be aware of those other hit bubbles, which are easy to study now, thanks to debug mode.

Also Up Smash's second hit is great as a tech chase option to continue the tech chase or land a free grab to start a chain on any fast fallers. Also it punishes anyone trying to poke you from the top of a platform.

Also the spike at the ledge is fun to practice with. It's more of a situational/demoralizing kill, but it's great for styling on those recoveries with no/weak hitboxes.
 

Xanthyr

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I've been working a lot on Pwavelands and smash attacks, klaws, and other options, it almost feels like squirtle's fancy crap with his pwaveland dsmash, I've done it where it feels like you're dacDSing and it feels really nice. I also watched a Bowser on netplay that uses the tag Pluttergub use the waveland into ftilt to end out a match, and it was quite pretty.
 

Pluttergub

Smash Cadet
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Sep 6, 2014
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I guess now would be a good time to enter the discussion. Perfect wavelands in neutral can be really, really good when you mix up your options out of the waveland. Ftilt is my favorite since it covers so much ground (about 1/2 of Battlefield including the waveland), but jabs, smashes, Dtilt, and grabs are also great. You obviously can't spam this approach since it's telegraphed, but if you mix it up with flame cancels, spaced Fairs, or wavelands backward it can keep your opponent guessing.

I love Bowser's improved platform movement, too. Combined with his faster jumpsquat, jumping up and wavelanding off of platforms into Fairs or flame cancels is much more effective. It seems like these two changes, and his new dash attack, will make matchups against projectile-heavy characters a lot better. Also, wavedash OoS is actually viable now, which will make matchups against, for instance, Marth and Roy even better than they were in 3.02.

The dash attack changes were overall probably a good thing. Extra armor is always good, the increased distance it travels is definitely helpful, and the shortened endlag allows for better follow-ups like Superjump into Fair or Dair on floaties or pretty much whatever you want against fast-fallers. This was mentioned already, but boost grabbing has 2 frames of medium armor on startup now. It doesn't seem like much, but I've already found it useful a few times.

Dsmash kills way earlier now, which I think is a decent trade-off for the reduced damage. Makes tech chases at low percents less rewarding, but it's actually a great kill move against floaties. Usmash wasn't really changed enough for me to comment on. I'm really glad they increased the range of Bowser's forward ledgegrab; it makes moves like Marth's Fsmash less effective in basically getting free edgeguards on Bowser.

Now for the more controversial change: Fortress Hogging. Overall, I can't say I'm a huge fan of the change. Fortress Hogging felt really natural in 3.02, especially since you could run at the ledge and let that momentum carry you offstage. Once I get used to the new momentum (or lack thereof) system I'm sure it will be almost as natural as 3.02. One change I noticed that I don't think has been discussed yet also concerns FHing. In 3.02, FHing while your opponent was near the ledge would suck them into your upB and do about 5% damage before you grabbed ledge. In 3.5, it seems like doing the same thing will actually hit them with the strong hit of upB (about 10% damage), then link into the weak hits before grabbing ledge. I've only done this a couple times, so I'll have to experiment some more but it seems like a slight buff to his damage.

Finally, I can't believe they got rid of Bowser's frame-perfect ledgedrop into immediate downB ledgestall. It was my favorite thing to do between stocks in friendlies, and I only SD'ed doing it about 90% of the time. Jokes aside, 3.5 Bowser is good. Perfect wavelands and 6-frame jumpsquat are awesome additions that really help to depolarize a lot of his matchups. I'm still going to use a secondary, though.
 

WinterShorts

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I guess now would be a good time to enter the discussion. Perfect wavelands in neutral can be really, really good when you mix up your options out of the waveland. Ftilt is my favorite since it covers so much ground (about 1/2 of Battlefield including the waveland), but jabs, smashes, Dtilt, and grabs are also great. You obviously can't spam this approach since it's telegraphed, but if you mix it up with flame cancels, spaced Fairs, or wavelands backward it can keep your opponent guessing.

I love Bowser's improved platform movement, too. Combined with his faster jumpsquat, jumping up and wavelanding off of platforms into Fairs or flame cancels is much more effective. It seems like these two changes, and his new dash attack, will make matchups against projectile-heavy characters a lot better. Also, wavedash OoS is actually viable now, which will make matchups against, for instance, Marth and Roy even better than they were in 3.02.

The dash attack changes were overall probably a good thing. Extra armor is always good, the increased distance it travels is definitely helpful, and the shortened endlag allows for better follow-ups like Superjump into Fair or Dair on floaties or pretty much whatever you want against fast-fallers. This was mentioned already, but boost grabbing has 2 frames of medium armor on startup now. It doesn't seem like much, but I've already found it useful a few times.

Dsmash kills way earlier now, which I think is a decent trade-off for the reduced damage. Makes tech chases at low percents less rewarding, but it's actually a great kill move against floaties. Usmash wasn't really changed enough for me to comment on. I'm really glad they increased the range of Bowser's forward ledgegrab; it makes moves like Marth's Fsmash less effective in basically getting free edgeguards on Bowser.

Now for the more controversial change: Fortress Hogging. Overall, I can't say I'm a huge fan of the change. Fortress Hogging felt really natural in 3.02, especially since you could run at the ledge and let that momentum carry you offstage. Once I get used to the new momentum (or lack thereof) system I'm sure it will be almost as natural as 3.02. One change I noticed that I don't think has been discussed yet also concerns FHing. In 3.02, FHing while your opponent was near the ledge would suck them into your upB and do about 5% damage before you grabbed ledge. In 3.5, it seems like doing the same thing will actually hit them with the strong hit of upB (about 10% damage), then link into the weak hits before grabbing ledge. I've only done this a couple times, so I'll have to experiment some more but it seems like a slight buff to his damage.

Finally, I can't believe they got rid of Bowser's frame-perfect ledgedrop into immediate downB ledgestall. It was my favorite thing to do between stocks in friendlies, and I only SD'ed doing it about 90% of the time. Jokes aside, 3.5 Bowser is good. Perfect wavelands and 6-frame jumpsquat are awesome additions that really help to depolarize a lot of his matchups. I'm still going to use a secondary, though.
A first message well said good sir, esspecailly coming from a Bowser main myself.
 

Mr. Bones

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I'm just going to secondary Marth. he's a little closer to Melee Marth now, so...great. :3
 

Abeebo

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I wonder what the MU against t/link, mewtwo, mario, and zss are gonna be like now. I'd mention jiggs, but I think it's safe to say it's definitely not any more in her favor.
 
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Frost | Odds

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M2 matchup was unwinnable before, but I can confirm that now it's somewhere around even (could be 60:40 in either direction).

Mario is less oppressive than he was, especially if you're good at powershielding. Not sure exactly how much better it is, especially because of his damn cape.

ZSS, weirdly, doesn't feel as bad as before. Jury's out - I have no idea what's up.

Link and Toon Link are probably still favored, but considering that goddamn Ivysaur and Mewtwo are totally beatable now, I'm not really concerned.
 

Pluttergub

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Who? And to cover which matchups? I'm picking Wario back up to cover CF and probably other MUs that may surprise me.
I'm not 100% set on a secondary, but I've been practicing Luigi for about 2 weeks now. I always lose to the same 2 players in my region, a Sonic and a Falcon player, and Luigi seems to at least have a decent matchup against Sonic.

The Mario matchup is honestly not too bad for Bowser, bar the Dthrow to Uair to regrab 0-80% combos. One thing that's vital against Mario is maintaining stage control. Specifically, I focus on keeping Mario on the ledge since he has only two good options against Bowser from that position. I stand under the middle of the lower Battlefield platform to set up the Bowser wall. Mario doesn't have enough range to ledgehop into aerial or ledgeattack. Ledge rolls are met with a Dsmash or upB, and ledge get-ups result in an Ftilt. Ledgejumps should be easy to catch with a spaced Fair. The only good options Mario has are fadeaway ledgehop into fireball spam (see M2K), and ledgedash into roll or spaced tilt. Fireball spam won't work too well if you're ahead and know how to shield one fireball every two seconds, and you can usually react to ledgedash into roll with an upB. Even though Mario has a pretty good recovery, he has a very hard time getting back onstage, so it is extremely important to capitalize on this. Also, Bowser's increased ledgegrab range should help with Mario caping our recovery.

I haven't played against a ZSS yet, but the ability to clank uncharged blasters in 3.5 should make it significantly easier in theory. Jabs should make quick work of them, and with dash-cancel blaster gone, ZSS shouldn't be able to punish.

Link, while he was nerfed, wasn't changed significantly enough to shift the matchup in our favor. The same problems in this matchup are still present. I haven't played a Toon Link yet, but I imagine it's about the same as it was in 3.02. Ivysaur is definitely possible now due to her camping ability with Fair and Bair being reduced, and Bowser's new dash attack, when spaced properly, can break through Razor Leaf walls. Also, edgeguarding Ivysaur should be completely free now; just hold ledge if she's used her double jump, wait for the forced tether ledgejump, and ledgehop into backwards KK for an easy loop.
 

deadjames

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There were a lot of experimental Bowser builds tried out for 3.5. In the end we decided that with the overall meta getting less crazy it would be safer to field a more conservative set of changes for 3.5. I'll admit I've gotten pretty salty about Bowser's design in the past, but I honestly think he's in a pretty good place right now.
I haven't felt like Bowser has been in a good place design-wise since 2.6, in 3.5 I feel like he took one step forward and two steps back. Overall, I feel as though his neutral game is better, but his punish game is worse which results in them both being mediocre.
 

Frost | Odds

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His punish game is worse how? You can chase people way more effectively now to follow DI and such. I've gotten 6 or 7 0-deaths in my 3 or 4 hours of 3.5 gameplay, and only 1 of those was on a spacie.
 
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deadjames

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His punish game is worse how? You can chase people way more effectively now to follow DI and such. I've gotten 6 or 7 0-deaths in my 3 or 4 hours of 3.5 gameplay, and only 1 of those was on a spacie.
His edge game is worse, and he is extremely susceptible to platform pressure because of the change to fortresses physics.
 

Pluttergub

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His edge game is worse, and he is extremely susceptible to platform pressure because of the change to fortresses physics.
Can you explain why his edge game is worse? Recoveries are weaker overall, if anything his edge game improved from 3.02 to 3.5. I can understand if you're referring to the Fortress Hogging changes; it has less range while facing the ledge and it's harder to perform consistently (at least in my opinion).

While it is true that Bowser is susceptible to platform pressure and the gravity changes to Whirling Fortress don't help, this wasn't the best option even in 3.02. Shield dropping has been my go-to option from platforms for months now, and I rarely get punished for it. Bowser has great options out of his shield drop, including Fair, Nair, Bair, Flame Cancel, and even KK if you condition your opponent into shielding. Fortress Hogging from platform is situational at best, especially against disjointed characters like Marth.
 

Goodin

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While im in the process of making this new Bowser video, might I ask what are some of his most important combo strings. I have found some of my own but I am curious as to how other are following up. Dash attack is OP and up throw to jump canceled down B is also good but what are some of the other important ones.
 

Pluttergub

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Bowser doesn't have too many bread 'n' butter, guaranteed combos, but he does have some decent strings that rack up damage extremely fast. Dthrow sets up for tech chases nicely and does 20% base damage, so one or two reads or reactions will net you a ton of easy damage. Uthrow is completely DI-dependent; if they DI away Bowser doesn't have any guaranteed followups. KK has the same problem but is harder to react to, so I often catch people with bad DI, especially with the fast KK throw. Dmash and Usmash can link into Superjump (JC Bowser Bomb) Uair, Dair, or Fair decently well depending on %.

Bowser's best combos are probably Dash Attack into most variations of jump + aerial and Dtilt1 or Jab1 into several things. Dtilt1 now has lower BKB in 3.5, which means it links more reliably into Dtilt2, grab, Ftilt, and occasionally KK if they shield. Jab1 into grab is not guaranteed, but it works most of the time for me. Another great combo starter is Utilt. This move destroys fast fallers at low to medium %s even with good DI, and it can lead to Uairs, Fairs, or Dairs on floaties.
 

Goodin

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This gave me serious penis envy. I know what I'll be practicing for the next few weeks. years
Yo, its not all one sided, your vids are pretty sick too. What should I do for the next vid. I wanna make Bowser fast! I can show like all the types of moonwalks and how to do them or something as my next video?!?!
 
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Frost | Odds

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That would be wonderful.

Anyway, the previous video motivated me like crazy. Like hell am I going to let someone else master the technical aspects of this new character before me :p
 

Goodin

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That would be wonderful.

Anyway, the previous video motivated me like crazy. Like hell am I going to let someone else master the technical aspects of this new character before me :p
Haha, alright sweet. You made a tutorial so I will have to make one to repay you for your help. Alot of people at tourneys ask me how i moonwalk so ima make an indepth tutorial for both melee and PM. All the ones out there arent up to snuff.
 

frangow

Smash Rookie
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About the Fsmash, I find it good, cause sometimes u make ppl block with shield the hit, and theyr shield just shrinks a lot, and without punishes on bowser.

If on the next 3 or 4 seconds, if you hit another Fsmash, or a bowser bomb, on theyr shield, you break the shield, and a charged Fsmash can kill a lot of characters in lower than 40% lol

I was losing 3 stocks(still in 3.02) to a pit in a champ game, I got a Fair kill, then he came with 2 stocks vs me with 1 stock and 70%.
I didnt had much to lose, so I did a Fair > mind game on edge > Fsmash on his shield. then I tried a random jump > down b right after and managed to break his shield with less than 25% damage taken. Charged Fsmash kill, and I got back into the game, and managed to turn that match lol.

Very situational, but works wonders sometimes lol
 

QuincyJones

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For those talking complaining about being unable to reverse Bowser's up-b, you can easily do either RAR - FH or dashdance turnaround - FH. It's a teeny bit slower than if you could just b-reverse it, but it's still perfectly usable. No reason to ever even try to go for the FH facing away from the stage :)
 
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