Nuances of Powershielding

[Superspright]

I was just curious. I know how the PS works. Basically giving you an alternate type of shielddrop that lets you do A or B moves quicker out of shield--or grab. Doesn't affect rolls I believe, or jumping. Shield isn't diminished, etc.

The thing I am curious about is what the difference is between a regular shielddrop and a powershield drop in terms of frames. I think the PS drops in 3 frames if it's not reflector, and 1 frame if it is. And regular shielddrop is 7 frames? I just want to be able to figure out when it's super useful, and when it's just better to shield.

 

[:Tally Hoes]

Regular sheild drop is based on who you are playing as like puff/peach have the fastest marth is among the slowest and yoshi is one frame slower and is the slowest you can find THAT info in mewtwokings detailed guide.

Also I don't think anyone has a sheild drop that fast and some get frame avadtages by wding oos

 

[Dan Salvato]

In my opinion, a power shield should negate all shield stun and shield drop frames. That would make it very tactical, in my opinion, as well as introduce new options and mindgames. Just a dream, though. Maybe in P:M...

 

[Superspright]

If the PS did that, then I would be pretty much 0 deathing everyone lol. I actively look for PS responses. It's just that they often aren't fast enough because of shield-stun. I play Ganon--so I do a lot of PS jab, PS ftilt, PS side-b. I am working on incorporating up-b into it, but it's supe rpunishable, and doesn't catch every crossover--nor does side-b. Wavedashing out is nice, but I am trying to use it as a parry. Not as a spacing tool.

Like, for instance CF has a frame advantage of +1 on shield with a sweetspotted knee. What would that advantage be against a powershield--or if there is one at all? Because I tend to beat knee with PS -> insert option. But, if the knee is perfectly space, or sufficently late he can jab to beat a slower option, or probably spotdodge.

I don't really even use the powershield as my bread and butter tactic (but it does result in 0 deaths and kills quite often). I use it more as a tool to force my opponent to consider their options differently. I try to put them in my comfort zone. If you can powershield very consistently then most opponents will try grab mixups and other stuff that can get them punished in order to punish the powershield shenanigans itself. That is what I want--but I need to be able to use it effectively in order to get that psychological element to get my opponent to bait himself in stupid ways--or throw out grabs more often.

So I need to know what exactly is the precise advantage of the powershield over the regular shielddrop so I can use it properly. Because I've just been working on muscle memory to the point I am powershielding every move in the game (cept that damn phantasm). Just to see the limits of it I suppose--I have no AR so I cannot test anything with frame precision. But I would like to know if PS is as good as I think it is.

 

[Pi]

only advantage to powershielding moves is that it allows you to cancel your shield drop animation with stuff

no reduced shieldhitlag/stun
and increases ur distance you move from taking the hit

 

[stelzig]

only advantage to powershielding moves is that it allows you to cancel your shield drop animation with stuff

This is what I thought. In other words there shouldn't be 3 (or any) frames of shielddrop before you can attack out of a powershield, right?
I've been practing PSing stuff with sheik recently (mostly against CPUs ) since she has so many moves faster than shieldgrab, but if I suddenly get 3 added frames after the stun.... pffft.

 

[Lovage]

only advantage to powershielding moves is that it allows you to cancel your shield drop animation with stuff

no reduced shieldhitlag/stun
and increases ur distance you move from taking the hit

think about the situation of powershielding an attack (doesn't matter, samus' dash attack, peach's bair w/e) and then immediately attempting a JC usmash out of shield, wouldn't the usmash come out a few frames faster because you bypass the pre-jump frames of the JC? or are JC usmashes only delayed by like 1 frame or something negligible?

only reason i bring it up is i remember vs. vanz at big house i powershielded his bair and usmash OOS'd faster than i can ever remember doing it, and it really felt like the powershield was the cause.

 

[Strong Badam]

Usmash out of shield and Up-B out of shield take at minimum 1 frame. it can be 1 frame if you execute it correctly.

 

[Superspright]

What strongbad? Shield--buffer the jump? Also, I don't think PS works that way. It only allows attacks to come out faster. You'd get a regular shielddrop if you tried to JC upsmash out of a powershield. So--it takes shieldstun but leaves me with no shieldlag on the drop? So if the shieldstun is +7 and shield drop is another 7 or so frames I could do things in half the time.

Can someone give me some discrete numbers?

 

[Pi]

okay here's an example...

Mario undiminished fsmash on shield is 9 frames of shieldhitlag (both players are affected)
and 10 frames of shieldhitstun, iirc samus shield drop animation lasts for 14 frames

so let's say i eat a fsmash to the shield and don't powershield it, and decide i want to shield drop

a non-powershielded shield drop can be interrupted by jump, grab, spot dodge, and roll, so i still have all of those options

but if i want to jab, side b, neutral b, dsmash, fsmash, tilt, i will have to wait for 14 frames until that shield drop animation is over

if i powershielded his fsmash, i still have to go through the 9 frames of shieldhitlag, and 10 frames of shieldhitstun but i then have the option of doing all those things listed above out of the shield drop animation

so that 14 frames of shield dropping, can be cancelled by jab, side b, neutral b, dsmash, fsmash, tilt

the attacks themselves are still as they were,

some more discussion on powershielding can be found here...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=297697

and also, to upsmash OoS, you need to jump cancel into upsmash
so you can do this out of full shield, light shield, non-powershielded shield drop
as long as you jump
and as strong bad said, you need to be jumping for 1 frame, and then you can start the upsmash

it's kind of a little buffer system the game gives you so that we don't have to be frame perfect for our smashes, fsmash has the same type of buffer

if you press right/left then a 2 frames later you will still fsmash, otherwise fsmash would be pretty much c-stick only or you'd whiff a lot

 

[Superspright]

I was a little confused on the wording. I know about JCupsmash out of shield. I rarely use it since I play Ganon. But I can see it being super useful for anyone with a good upsmash (pikachu, fox, etc.)

It doesn't seem like I'd have a frame advantage most of the time against smash moves. I've been using PS a lot against fox's upsmash if he's sharking for it--then punish. Works very well against aerials [***** CF]--but spacies can just shine out of any powershield. But PS jab/grab does work against falco and fox very well--but the other multitude of powershield options are nerfed by the fact shine will be coming.

Thanks for some clarity on it.

 

[mers]

PS grab is no faster than regular shieldgrab.

PS jab is a spectacular option for many characters.

The efficacy of powershielding is extremely character dependent. If your character has a good quick ground move (other than upsmash), then powershielding will be more valuable.

 

[Superspright]

Wait wait. So the grab would come off of a regular shield drop? I've been PS grabbing like a boss.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I've been curious about PS-grab. Also, what if you just don't JC your usmash? Wouldn't powershield -> c-stick up result in an up smash, or would the game still read the shield dropping as being in shield and c-stick up would make you jump or not do anything at all? I can't imagine being able to powershield -> fsmash, but not usmash. Just seems random.

 

[mers]

PS-grab is no faster. Either way you have to wait for shieldstun and everything to end.

It's true you don't have to JC your usmash if you do it out of a powershield, and it can be a few frames faster, but its essentially the same effect.

 

[Avalancer]

Are a lot of people (which go to tournaments) good at powershielding SHLs?

 

[Beat!]

Depends on how you define good, but players like Armada and Taj (and sometimes M2K) can PS them fairly consistently. It's not realistically possible to PS all of them. What's important is what you make of it. It's not an end all solution to lasers, though.

 

[Superspright]

Most good players will only powershield when it is necessary. So if Falco likes to approach with a laser before a hit--guess what? I'm going to try to powershield it and use it against you for my own counter-attack. This is what will often happen if someone uses it properly.