Nostalgia's a lair

[finalark]

Link to original post: [drupal=1084]Nostalgia's a lair[/drupal]



Something I noticed whenever I read a review on an old game giving it a 10 is that how the review says how fun it was to play back in the day. This is called "nostalgia" which is bloody lair if anything. I'm going to say this right off the bat, I did not like Ocarina of Time. This probably has something to do with the fact that in the mid-90s while all of the other kiddies were playing Ocarina and Mario 64 I had a Playstation and grew up with Spyro the Dragon, not that crap that's being pumped out today, mind you, I mean the real Spyro the Dragon (for those of you who are unfamiliar, Spyro the Dragon was originally a trilogy of platformers for the Playstation and was made by Insomniac Games who are now better known for their Ratchet and Clank games and the two Resistance games. The reason why all of the new Spyro games suck is because once the Playstation 2 came out Insomniac sold the rights to Spyro to some crappy game developers). But hell, that doesn't mean that I hail the three games as the best games ever made, as a matter of fact there are a lot of things I could say. In the original Spyro the guy's voice was bloody annoying, the levels were so short that you could fly through some of them in under a minuet and all of the boss fights were a joke. Sorry, off topic. Anyway, so while I see 10s getting throw around left and right for Ocarina I would like to remind everyone that the only games that truly deserve a 10 is a game that's absolutely flawless with an original and interesting story and superb game-play, basically something you would think God himself would make. When I was playing Ocarina I enjoyed playing it. A bit tedious here and there but overall enjoyable and worth picking up. But then my arch-nemesis the Water Temple showed up. This is where the game dropped from a nine to a six in my book. Yes, the Water Temple, a play that most fanboys like to pretend never existed so they can give the game a ten without noticing that it's coughing up blood. Now that I'm finished beating that game into a bloody pulp I can move onto another game that nostalgia has lied about: Final Fantasy VII.

Final Fantasy VII was the RPG that made RPGs popular, it was the Final Fantasy that spawned the series' popular in America, a few spin-offs, a movie and some really, really weird fanfics... anyway. I've also seen nothing but 10s for this game and I've played all of the Final Fantasies and guess what, VII isn't the best one.

Another game that caused nostalgia to strike again would be the Nintendo 64 game Banjo Kazooie. I've only heard good things about this game and after a friend of mine told me that he owned it and I decided to borrow it and give it a shot. I did not like that game at all. Often I've heard it associated with the words "undeniable charm" and this game draws the line between "charm" and "toddler." I don't find anything amusing about Banjo's hick style, the game practically punishes you for choosing the save and quit option (you get the same cinematic you would get if you got a game over) and the fact that the moves are a pain to get made this game a drag to play. Oh, and did I forget to mention that in all of the levels you have the option to find and rescue a bunch of annoyingly cute... things.... who look like they would tag along with Barney on one of his adventures?

 

[:mad:]

Quite possibly the most important blog I've seen so far, I do grow tired of everyone rating games like SMRPG and every Zelda Game so highly because they remember the good times, instead of doing what a good critique should, look for flaws. I can't say any game has really been a 10 in my book, possibly Yoshi's Island, but there's bias there because of nostalgia.

Excellent post.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Wait, wait, wait...

RPGs weren't popular before FFVII? While I disagree with you on the Zelda thing a lot (HUGE Zelda fan -- OoT is tied with Wind Waker and Majora's Mask for my favorite in the series), you are definately wrong on RPGs not being popular before FFVII.

 

[finalark]

Wait, wait, wait...

RPGs weren't popular before FFVII? While I disagree with you on the Zelda thing a lot (HUGE Zelda fan -- OoT is tied with Wind Waker and Majora's Mask for my favorite in the series), you are definately wrong on RPGs not being popular before FFVII.

True, but you have to admit that it wasn't until FFVII that everyone and their mother tried to replicate this game's success by making an RPG of their own.

 

[:mad:]

True, but you have to admit that it wasn't until FFVII that everyone and their mother tried to replicate this game's success by making an RPG of their own.

And with the internet, especially today, came dozens of online RPG's.
The same thing happened after street-fighter.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I think actually going back and playing the games gives nostalgia a swift quick in the rear. I get bored of playing Super Mario World far quicker than I do Brawl or StarCraft (that game is just **** fun, no bias.). Playing through games like Fire Emblem for the first time make me think they ARE actually good. I don't know about Mother 3, though. So far it's kind of annoying.

Anyways, Nostalgia + Elitism = a deadly brew. These are our modern critics in the gaming, literature, and art world, and I sometimes want to knock their blocks off. It's probably not so bad with avid brawl haters because melee is still played commonly instead of just looked at and "wow"ed.

 

[Firus]

You're definitely right. The fact that people have different opinions proves that people who like certain games and give them a ten are biased and nostalgic. How very insightful.

Also, your standards of "10" are unreasonable and stupid. If it's got to be so good that only a deity could make it, why do we even have 10? Why isn't the scale 9.9? Oh, because then 9.9 will have to be perfect, and then we move down to 9.8...
No.

By the way, I assume you meant nostalgia is a "liar", correct...?

 

[finalark]

And with the internet, especially today, came dozens of online RPG's.
The same thing happened after street-fighter.

One thing that I've noticed is that whenever a game sparks a miracle success a notable number of developers attempt to do the same thing. For something a bit newer than Street Fighter, take World of Warcraft for example. While yes, there were Online RPG's before this they were far and few in between. Once Blizzard released World of Warcraft (which was originally aimed at fans of Warcraft already) it was a hit among fans and non-fans alike. After this we started to see a number of Online RPG's start to come out in an attempt to recreate what Blizzard had done.

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, a bunch of games really are overrated because of nostalgia. Generally, it's so much better the first time you play it, and then you have no real reason to revisit the game. Once it's done, it's done for good. You remember how great the game was, but you have to acknowledge that you can only truly enjoy it once. Some of these games (ex. OoT, SMRPG) are great games that everyone should probably try to play through once, but peopleneed to realize that you can't relive the same kind of joy the second time around.

 

[:mad:]

I played through a good amount of SMRPG, and I can honestly say that I don't see the appeal.
I'd love another good Mario platformer after Mario 64. But they decided to give an RPG a shot, and it was a hit. It might still be fun for people today, but I think some people got it suck in their heads that it was a good game when they played it years ago.

 

[finalark]

You're definitely right. The fact that people have different opinions proves that people who like certain games and give them a ten are biased and nostalgic. How very insightful.

Also, your standards of "10" are unreasonable and stupid. If it's got to be so good that only a deity could make it, why do we even have 10? Why isn't the scale 9.9? Oh, because then 9.9 will have to be perfect, and then we move down to 9.8...
No.

By the way, I assume you meant nostalgia is a "liar", correct...?

The reasons why my standards for a 10 are so high is because a 10 is considered perfection; something that I believe no human being can truly achieve. Therefor, because humanity is flawed there will always be flaws in what we make.

And yes, I meant "liar."

 

[Firus]

The reasons why my standards for a 10 are so high is because a 10 is considered perfection; something that I believe no human being can truly achieve. Therefor, because humanity is flawed there will always be flaws in what we make.

That's exactly my point.

If it's not humanly possible, why do we even have the rating "10"? Then the maximum is 9.9, and then that's considered the best a game can be, and then people don't want 9.9 used, and then the cycle keeps going until things can only get a .1. Obviously it couldn't get that far, but it doesn't work.

If humans are flawed by nature and cannot make a perfect game, then why do you expect only a perfected game to receive a 10? Nothing will ever get a 10. This is my point. You're unreasonable to expect 10 to be perfect. 10 is the best score. It doesn't mean a game has to be perfect to get it.

Not to mention, everyone has different reviewing standards. There are some that view it as perfection and still give out 10s, and there are others that don't. You can't use your standards of rating to critique the reviews of others, because they're not following your standards.

You don't have to be so anal about the score. When someone says straight out that a game is perfect, then you can complain. I love Super Metroid, a LOT, and it is probably my favorite game (and no, not because of nostalgia -- I didn't even play it until early last year). But I acknowledge that, for one thing, Maridia sucks. I would still probably give it a 10 because it's so awesome otherwise, albeit not perfect.

 

[kr3wman]

MMOs weren't far and few in-between before WoW. They just had a very, very small active player-base compared to it.

And while I consider OoT the greatest game ever, I never compare any new game I play with it because I know they are different games. If you ask me what game I enjoyed the most all time, then my answer would probably be OoT, yes, I still play new games and enjoy them.

Yes, I would be the first to admit they were flaws in OoT : Easy end boss compared to other Zelda games, some items you only used for 3/4 times...

But, if you look at it on the other side : Tons of dungeons, Boss fights with good gimmicks, interesting storyline (not ZZZ like new titles), great graphics for the time (Emotions on faces : Wow!), Simple and Intuitive controls, great cutscenes and while some dialogues were long, you didn't want to rush through them, Mother ****ing riding my horse in Hyrule Field like it was MY backyard, tons of interesting and useful side-content, best original soundtrack that is still unrivalled (IMO). The amount of content in that little cartridge was astounding to me, and when I saw my friend playing through the first dungeon I knew I somehow had to play it. We exchanged games for an indefinite amount of time and I passed mother****ing Smash Bros 64 to him. I learnt english by ****ing playing that game, and it is the reason why Link is my most used character in Smash64/Melee.

**** Brawl and TP Link '>.> Suck a bad hair design. WHERE IS MY PURE BLOND DISHEVELLED HAIR SAKURAI? WHERE IS IT?

And if you dropped to 6/10 just because of the Water temple, then, my friend, you sucked.

EDIT : Basically, my rant asks you to stop QQuing and sucking. The 10 is there because it represents the best score, not a ''perfect'' game. If you put OoT at 9.9, then that would mean that another game would be better than it. But the problem is, there isn't.

For example, you know how MK is rated 15 out of 15 in the second tier list? Because everyone in the SBR-B thought he was the best character, not because he was perfect or anything like that.

 

[finalark]

That's exactly my point.

If it's not humanly possible, why do we even have the rating "10"? Then the maximum is 9.9, and then that's considered the best a game can be, and then people don't want 9.9 used, and then the cycle keeps going until things can only get a .1. Obviously it couldn't get that far, but it doesn't work.

If humans are flawed by nature and cannot make a perfect game, then why do you expect only a perfected game to receive a 10? Nothing will ever get a 10. This is my point. You're unreasonable to expect 10 to be perfect. 10 is the best score. It doesn't mean a game has to be perfect to get it.

Not to mention, everyone has different reviewing standards. There are some that view it as perfection and still give out 10s, and there are others that don't. You can't use your standards of rating to critique the reviews of others, because they're not following your standards.

I see a 10 as something that gave developers can only strive for, it's what every game is trying to reach. It's a clear objective to try and obtain, although Impossible. Yes, I know it's a terrible way to classify a 10 but it's this opinion that also keeps me from becoming a fanboy.

 

[Firus]

You're not even making sense and you seem to be ignoring everything I'm saying STILL.

What's the point of striving for something you deem physically impossible? What's the point of having everyone use decimals because god forbid they give it a ten? Why not make it make sense and have eleven be the impossible on a scale out of ten? It's not only numerically impossible, but then it can be that goal to reach for.

And obviously, giving something a 10 instead of a 9.9 makes you a fanboy. Mirite? Mirite? RATINGS AREN'T EVERYTHING. And do you even know what a fanboy is?

Again. I'm going to say this in boldface print because you didn't see it last time.

You cannot complain about someone else not following your guidelines when grading a game. Just because you see 10 as having to be a perfect score doesn't mean everyone else has to.

Speaking of eliticism...

Also...

And if you dropped to 6/10 just because of the Water temple, then, my friend, you sucked.

This.

You cannot drop a game down three points for ONE DUNGEON. That's just ridiculous. One point is even overdoing it if you ask me, but reasonable if you REALLY hated it.

You can't complain for the radical ratings and acclaim of games if you're so radical about ratings yourself and you've got more criticism in you than...I don't know. Being radically critical of old games because you feel they're overrated or something isn't any better than praising them to death.

 

[finalark]

EDIT : Basically, my rant asks you to stop QQuing and sucking. The 10 is there because it represents the best score, not a ''perfect'' game. If you put OoT at 9.9, then that would mean that another game would be better than it. But the problem is, there isn't.

I can understand your love of Ocarina, but to be honest I can name a number of games I enjoyed playing more than it. But one thing that must be remembered (this includes myself) is that everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

You cannot complain about someone else not following your guidelines when grading a game. Just because you see 10 as having to be a perfect score doesn't mean everyone else has to.

I'm not asking anyone to submit to my way of using the 1-10 scoring system, that's just how I interpret it. You're free to see it and use it anyway you want to. And on reflection, giving Ocarina a 6/10 for the Water Temple is indeed foolish. I will have to play the game again some time and then rethink my opinion.

 

[Mith_]

I never played OoT until December of 08, and I never got out of the part after you wake up (I played it on VC for 10 minutes lol). I never really played FF, and they ones I did play I didn't like (ok, I did like 10. it was pretty straight.) and i gave up on smrpg because mallow kept dying. So I can't argue with you on those points

But I DID play Spyro. That game was friggin great. If somebody asked me to rate it I'd prolly say 10. Why? Nostalgia.

It was a good *** game lol.

But if I had to rate it unbiased it get an 8. It's hard to rate old games unbiased because you have to:

Compare them to todays games (except for graphics obv.)
Be unbiased! Lol.

In other words if you are rating a game based off of nostalgia just give it a 9 lol.

 

[Firus]

I'm not asking anyone to submit to my way of using the 1-10 scoring system, that's just how I interpret it. You're free to see it and use it anyway you want to.

Exactly. But you complained about people giving games 10s because it should be only for perfect games. I just wanted to set that straight. Feel free to have your own standard, just don't hold others to it, that's all I ask.

And on reflection, giving Ocarina a 6/10 for the Water Temple is indeed foolish. I will have to play the game again some time and then rethink my opinion.

Okay, good.

I personally have not gotten that into OoT myself...I've played the first two dungeons and haven't been overwhelmed -- I want to get further to at least be able to judge the game better. I just know that it is a classic nonetheless and think it deserves respect. There is nostalgia there, but behind nostalgia there's usually solid opinion backing it.

 

[finalark]

I personally have not gotten that into OoT myself...I've played the first two dungeons and haven't been overwhelmed -- I want to get further to at least be able to judge the game better. I just know that it is a classic nonetheless and think it deserves respect. There is nostalgia there, but behind nostalgia there's usually solid opinion backing it.

I played through the game and over all wasn't very impressed by it, I enjoyed it (except for the Water Temple, because if you do the puzzles in the wrong order and save then you have to start your game all over from the start) but didn't find it as good as I was lead on to believe. Next time I play through I will try not to have an image of the perfect game in my head.

 

[Browny]

How do you feel about metroid prime?

You have to remember the thing about Oot was that it was completely revolutionary. The Z-targeting alone was probably the best ever invention for 3d games behind the analog control stick, and then theres the whole transition of 2d-3d which is never an easy task. If you feel games like metroid prime are overrated, despite the sheer original brilliance and innovation of its design, then you are not appreciating games the same way that reviewers do. They focus on not the flaws of the game (in which case Metroid prime would be hit heavily with its bad replay value and complete lack of multiplayer), but the risks developers took and how well they paid off. While the water temple was indeed a nightmare, by no means did that detract from how well it was designed, had any other game in history ever tried to make a dungeon like that? you will remember that dungeon for the rest of your life. Not because it was stupidly hard, but because of the sense of acheivement one gets when you finish it.

 

[finalark]

How do you feel about metroid prime?

You have to remember the thing about Oot was that it was completely revolutionary. The Z-targeting alone was probably the best ever invention for 3d games behind the analog control stick, and then theres the whole transition of 2d-3d which is never an easy task. If you feel games like metroid prime are overrated, despite the sheer original brilliance and innovation of its design, then you are not appreciating games the same way that reviewers do. They focus on not the flaws of the game (in which case Metroid prime would be hit heavily with its bad replay value and complete lack of multiplayer), but the risks developers took and how well they paid off. While the water temple was indeed a nightmare, by no means did that detract from how well it was designed, had any other game in history ever tried to make a dungeon like that? you will remember that dungeon for the rest of your life. Not because it was stupidly hard, but because of the sense of acheivement one gets when you finish it.

I loved Metroid Prime, and that was the first Metroid game I had ever played. I thought that it outdid other more popular shooter games such as Halo or Gears of War. I loved the way that they did the interface; as if you were actually in that armor fighting those Space Pirates. Overall, I thought that Metroid Prime was an excellent game that deserves to be owned by any Game Cube or Wii owner.

I'll admit that Ocarina did an amazing job at that switch from 2D to 3D but I don't judge games biased on what they did for the industry, I base my reviews off of how much fun I had while playing the game.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Heheh. I just remembered... if you hate the Water Temple, the Shadow Temple is gonna kick your ***! I really love Zelda for all the different themes and environments it has. Twilight Princess I think was even better, imo. I like the new Wolf thing, not to mention the sword tricks.

 

[Firus]

bad replay value

El oh el.

Bad replay value in a Metroid game?
This is proof in and of itself. There's TONS of replay value in Metroid games. Tricks, glitches, sequence breaking, and most of all, speed/low% running, as well as 100% running.

I agree with you mostly otherwise, though. Save for the fact that I do think reviewers also focus on flaws, and not just revolutionary-ness. Mirror's Edge was rather revolutionary, but got relatively low marks from reviewers and players alike for being too short, having a bad combat system, etc.

 

[Skrah]

kr3wman took the words out of my mouth.

Also, you have to check the DATE of the rating. Remember that OoT was the first Zelda 3D game. Obviously it had some wow factor in it. From looking at Link in overview, with ringtone music, and that already-been-there feel to it, to a vast 3D world that you can explore, up and down, left and right? Obviously that upped the score. Also take into account that IN THAT TIME it was an excellent game, innovative, heavenly music, good story, amazing gameplay, etc.

If one website/magazine rated OoT 10, but the others 8 or lower, then I would agree with you that it was way too hyped up, but when MANY, if not all, magazines and websties gave OoT a 10ish score, then its because that game is special. Just because some people didn't like it doesn't mean its not a good game. People have different tastes.

 

[kr3wman]

Oh yeah!

I forgot about how Z-targeting was the first auto-lock in video games and that EVERY game after it that had an auto-lock on system took the system right out of OoT.

And the ****ing horse riding. Epona is the best mount/vehicle in any videogames ever.