Noob's Question to Project M

[krains123]

My name is Krains and I am a noob to both competitive 64, melee, brawl, and m. I'm very interested in getting into the competitive scene of either M or Melee, but unsure of which. I'm leaning more towards M since it seems to be more balanced and more of a competitive scene all around since the introduction of it. My biggest question is where does a complete noob learn how to play M or Melee competitively? I used to play brawl a lot back in the day, but I don't know any of the advanced techniques for any of the SSB games. I've googled videos and used them, but is there a comprehensive guide to learning anywhere, preferably for someone new to M?

 

[Prince Longstrok]

Starters- play the game! Find out who you have fun with :D

Then, learn the basics. Wave dashing and l-canceling. They are a hue increase in performance, and have very noticeable benefits.

Hmm.. I cant do much with my aerials on the ground because they have a lot of landing lag. Thus, l canceling ^-^.

Then, hmmm.. Sucks i can do much out of dash ground wise... Well, wavedashing lets you fake approaches, move quickly, and space better! :D

After getting those down well (dont expect to master them in a night, takes a lot of playtime- for me, about.. 2 months to get about a 90% success rate with my wavedashes/lands, and i still need to work on them more c:.

After that, hit up your characters board- you learn ALOT of unique traits and moves c: did you know ike can wavedash out of quick draw- leading to really scary grab reaches? Stuff like that c:

 

[krains123]

Starters- play the game! Find out who you have fun with :D

Then, learn the basics. Wave dashing and l-canceling. They are a hue increase in performance, and have very noticeable benefits.

Hmm.. I cant do much with my aerials on the ground because they have a lot of landing lag. Thus, l canceling ^-^.

Then, hmmm.. Sucks i can do much out of dash ground wise... Well, wavedashing lets you fake approaches, move quickly, and space better! :D

After getting those down well (dont expect to master them in a night, takes a lot of playtime- for me, about.. 2 months to get about a 90% success rate with my wavedashes/lands, and i still need to work on them more c:.

After that, hit up your characters board- you learn ALOT of unique traits and moves c: did you know ike can wavedash out of quick draw- leading to really scary grab reaches? Stuff like that c:

So how long does it take to master wave dashing then? Three months or so? I've gone into practice as Luigi and can barely pull it off, so I'm unsure how well I'm doing it.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

So how long does it take to master wave dashing then? Three months or so? I've gone into practice as Luigi and can barely pull it off, so I'm unsure how well I'm doing it.

Takes awhile to get the muscle memory down. Dont get upset if you havent quite got it down yet, its something that just takes time ^-^

Just keep practicing. Try WDing across FD without messing up, make jt a little game for yourself. It took me a long time, do its not just you c:

 

[Nyhte]

What Prince Longstrok said

So how long does it take to master wave dashing then? Three months or so? I've gone into practice as Luigi and can barely pull it off, so I'm unsure how well I'm doing it.

Depends on the person, but with enough practice people can do pretty much anything so keep trying

These should help you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_eZoX8nAdg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lrxW1Ju5g

 

[Foo]

Personally, I'd put off wavedashing for a while. There are MUCH more important techs. While wavedashing isn't that complicated, it's very difficult to get good enough to actually utilize it. Here's the order I'd recommend. Since I have no idea what you started with, I am going to start from the very top.

1. Learn to short hop consistently. Do it until you don't mess up
2. Get good with all the options out of run. If you crouch during a run, you'll be able to do anything out of it. You can crouch into any smash attack, tilt, or jab. If you time it right, it'll look like you just used the move right out of dash. Also, if you turn around and hit grab at almost the same time, you'll turn and grab. Make sure you can short hop out of dash as well.
3. All the L's. Focus a bunch on Teching, L-canceling, and wavelanding. You should be hitting L for some odd reason every time you hit the ground.
3.5: If your character has any simple unique techs, this would be the time to learn them. eg wolf's air dodge out of blaster.
4. Dash Dancing. Don't just work on the input, try to use it properly. When in your dash dance, look closely at your opponent. When the run towards you, you have several options, you can either dash back (and let of of the stick) to bait out a whiff, you can shield, you can jump, you can go for a move out of dash, or you can dash right at them.
5. Shffling. This is probably the most difficult fundamental mechanic to learn. Depending on your character, you MAY be able to skip this, but probably not. Short hop then do an aerial every time till you can't mess it up. Then fast fall at the peak of the short hop while doing the aerial. Then dash and short hop, aerial, fast fall. Then do it in place again, but L-cancel it. Once you mastered that, start practicing doing it out of dash. Be patient, this will take a long time to master.
6. Ledge options. Just get good at dropping off and double jumping back to stage, then get good at dropping off, double jumping forwards, doing an aerial and L-canceling it. Then learn to drop off, double jump, waveland on stage.
7. Finally we learn to wavedash. The best way to do it imo, is to just sick in training mode for an hour at a time, doing nothing but wavedashing. Once you get that down, start putting it in your dash dance.
8. Misc advanced tech. If your character can dacus, or any other advanced techniques, this would be the time to learn them.

 

[McSlur]

My name is Krains and I am a noob to both competitive 64, melee, brawl, and m. I'm very interested in getting into the competitive scene of either M or Melee, but unsure of which. I'm leaning more towards M since it seems to be more balanced and more of a competitive scene all around since the introduction of it. My biggest question is where does a complete noob learn how to play M or Melee competitively? I used to play brawl a lot back in the day, but I don't know any of the advanced techniques for any of the SSB games. I've googled videos and used them, but is there a comprehensive guide to learning anywhere, preferably for someone new to M?

*I AM SORT OF BAD AT THIS GAME SO TAKE ALL OF THIS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT*

When I first started trying to get AT down, I would practice for around 15 minutes every day. Wavedashing can be tricky to pick up at first, but it's an incredibly helpful movement option for most (if not all) characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwo_VBSfqWk Cosmo's Melee intro helped ME understand the concept behind wavedashing.

With SHFFLing, I would practice in training. Getting your SHFFL down is very important, as it lets you be faster. To start, just practice short hopping until you can do that reliably, then start trying to fast fall at the peak of your jump. Once you got that down pat, try throwing out an attack before you reach the peak of your jump, before you fast fall. Once you got those three things down,
Short hopping, fast falling, and using an air attack, then you can start L canceling your air attacks. Pressing a shoulder button 7 frames before you land after an air attack cuts your landing animation time in half (Cosmo also covers this) In a way, it's a lot like learning to juggle. First you throw one ball at a time, then two, then three, then four.

With Teching, I just go into training and put the CPU on nine, then have them attack me. I don't try to dodge it, just tech before I hit the ground. Teching is when you press a shoulder button 7 frames ( I think...) before you hit the ground. When you successfully tech, your get up animation time is cut in half, much like L canceling (I think it's half...). You can either tech in place, or roll right or left by holding the control stick in the appropriate direction.

After you got some of the AT down, try just applying them in games vs other people. The best way to learn is to play other people (especially people who are better then you) and examine how THEY play. If you don't have people to play with regularly, you can practice movement around the stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbgR29W_X_o This is a Captain Falcon movement guide, but I like to apply it to other characters. You are limited by how quickly you can move, so learning how to dash around the stages is very important. Sethlon put it very well in his Roy guide, "In a way, movement is the biggest pillar upon which a player's skill level sits. It doesn't matter how much space you control if you can't comfortably move that space around."

I hope these things helped, they helped me when I was starting to learn. Good luck!

 

[Seeker-of-Light-XIV]

I'm surprised no one has linked the SSBM Advanced How to Play videos yet, I can't post the links because I haven't posted enough in the boards , but just search "Advanced How to Play Melee" in Youtube and you should find it.

Before you read on, just know that I am by no means a highly skilled player, I too am trying to get into Competitive Project M, but am just a little farther along the path than you are, krains123.

As far as practicing techniques, you really just need to play and practice! Go into training mode, and just practice something for awhile. Work on your short hop, wavedash, waveland, your SHFFL (be sure to practice both when you hit and when you miss an opponent as the timings are slightly different, I've heard hitting the pillars on Shadow Moses Island is good for this). You don't have to spend all day on it if you don't have the time; just a few minutes here and there will help you immensely. Don't get frustrated if you can't get something down, just keep practicing and you'll eventually get the muscle memory down.

If you can, find some players that live near you, and play with them. Do NOT focus on winning, focus on utilizing the techs you've been practicing. Tell yourself stuff like; this game I am going to be sure to L-cancel every aerial, I'm going to really utilize wavedashing this game, etc. Don't judge your performance based on wins and losses, base it on how well you executed those goals. Did you hit those L-cancels? Did you flub all your wavedashes? And again, don't get frustrated if you start messing things up that you've got down in practice, doing something in training and then doing it playing a real opponent is totally different.
And for things like wavedashing, dash dancing, etc., you will probably use them in the wrong situations and get punished. Don't let this discourage you from using those techs, just make a mental note of when you should or shouldn't do things. No one learns wavedashing one day and then can utilize it to perfection the next, you will learn when you should use them as you play.
Ask your opponent if they noticed you doing anything predictable, or that was easily punishable. Ask them about their play style and why they do what they do. If possible, record your matches so that you can go back and analyze what you did. I personally have not had a chance to do that yet so I am probably not the best person to tell you how to analyze your matches, lol.

And finally, watch some matches of some high level players that use your character. It might be difficult to follow at first, but watch to see how and when they utilize different techs and different attacks, and try to incorporate that into your playstyle. There's nothing wrong with mimicking someone else's playstyle in order to make your style better.

I hope at least some of this helps you, and good luck on your journey into competitive Smash!

 

[CORY]

My name is Krains and I am a noob to both competitive 64, melee, brawl, and m. I'm very interested in getting into the competitive scene of either M or Melee, but unsure of which. I'm leaning more towards M since it seems to be more balanced and more of a competitive scene all around since the introduction of it. My biggest question is where does a complete noob learn how to play M or Melee competitively? I used to play brawl a lot back in the day, but I don't know any of the advanced techniques for any of the SSB games. I've googled videos and used them, but is there a comprehensive guide to learning anywhere, preferably for someone new to M?

Personally, I'd put off wavedashing for a while. There are MUCH more important techs. While wavedashing isn't that complicated, it's very difficult to get good enough to actually utilize it. Here's the order I'd recommend. Since I have no idea what you started with, I am going to start from the very top.

1. Learn to short hop consistently. Do it until you don't mess up
2. Get good with all the options out of run. If you crouch during a run, you'll be able to do anything out of it. You can crouch into any smash attack, tilt, or jab. If you time it right, it'll look like you just used the move right out of dash. Also, if you turn around and hit grab at almost the same time, you'll turn and grab. Make sure you can short hop out of dash as well.
3. All the L's. Focus a bunch on Teching, L-canceling, and wavelanding. You should be hitting L for some odd reason every time you hit the ground.
3.5: If your character has any simple unique techs, this would be the time to learn them. eg wolf's air dodge out of blaster.
4. Dash Dancing. Don't just work on the input, try to use it properly. When in your dash dance, look closely at your opponent. When the run towards you, you have several options, you can either dash back (and let of of the stick) to bait out a whiff, you can shield, you can jump, you can go for a move out of dash, or you can dash right at them.
5. Shffling. This is probably the most difficult fundamental mechanic to learn. Depending on your character, you MAY be able to skip this, but probably not. Short hop then do an aerial every time till you can't mess it up. Then fast fall at the peak of the short hop while doing the aerial. Then dash and short hop, aerial, fast fall. Then do it in place again, but L-cancel it. Once you mastered that, start practicing doing it out of dash. Be patient, this will take a long time to master.
6. Ledge options. Just get good at dropping off and double jumping back to stage, then get good at dropping off, double jumping forwards, doing an aerial and L-canceling it. Then learn to drop off, double jump, waveland on stage.
7. Finally we learn to wavedash. The best way to do it imo, is to just sick in training mode for an hour at a time, doing nothing but wavedashing. Once you get that down, start putting it in your dash dance.
8. Misc advanced tech. If your character can dacus, or any other advanced techniques, this would be the time to learn them.

this ^. except, i would start with learn to short hop with your favorite character(s) first, then go into the full shffl setup before anything else. that's integral to doing pretty much ANYTHING in the game. then work on down the list. you need to shffl with every character (there are some who can break the mold and don't need to l cancel, but they can't do that 100% of the time, so learn to do it). wd is a movement option that's only integral to maybe two characters (luigi and ic's, off the top of my head. other character don't need wd to function, it's just icing).

after that, get used to general control of your character. dash when you want to dash, walk when you want to walk. learn to utilt consistently, rather than jumping or usmashing (doesn't seem like much, but it's a huge hurdle to people who aren't used to the game's engine and it's very important). included in this is learning to sweetspot, learning character specific options, learn to dash dance properly, not just the motion, etc...

you NEED to be able to control your character at a basic level to do mindgames, setups, and baits. if you can't make your character do what you need it to, you can't make your opponent do what you want them to (well, you can, but it won't be as effective and your options are much more limited). it's like running. you didn't go straight into full on sprints at the tender age of 2. you learned to stand up, then you learned to hobble along and not hurt yourself when you fell, then you learned to walk normally, then you learned how to walk quickly, and then finally you got to the point that you can run (and all the breathing and pacing advanced techs that come along with that).

 

[krains123]

Thanks for all the help guys! ^.^ What would be a good character to learn with or rather who is the most noob friendly? I practice my wavedashing and shorthop with Luigi on FD. I like to play Shiek, Captain Falcon, and Marth so far. The only one that Im any decent with is Marth, despite my fondness of Shiek.

 

[Narpas_sword]

id suggest not practicing wavedashing till you pick a character. they have different timings, and there are plenty of things you should learn beforehand

 

[Mean Green]

Thanks for all the help guys! ^.^ What would be a good character to learn with or rather who is the most noob friendly? I practice my wavedashing and shorthop with Luigi on FD. I like to play Shiek, Captain Falcon, and Marth so far. The only one that Im any decent with is Marth, despite my fondness of Shiek.

SHFFL - Short Hop > Fast Fall > (aerial A attack) > L-cancel the landing is probably the single most important advanced tech I use, especially with someone like Captain Falcon who needs to spend all of his time being on offense. The L-cancel timings are different for when you're attacking the air versus when you're attacking a character (or sandbag).
That should be one of the first things you practice, along with what's called spacing, or basically footsies. If you can't find someone to train with, the new 3.5 AI for Fox is actually not too bad for practicing that since he seems to dash in at opponents pretty often.

 

[krains123]

Is short jumping with Shiek difficult? I can pull off short jumps well with Luigi, but not her. I have to barely even touch the x button for it to work.

 

[Narpas_sword]

The window for shorthopping is the characters jumpstart (or squatframes)

when you jump, your character goes into a squat before they jump (as you would IRL)
some characters do this 'squat' faster.

To shorthop, you need to release the jump button before this time ends.

this thread contains the info for each character
http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-...falling-speed-etc.335019/page-4#post-17684771

-This the amount of frames it takes for a character to become airborne. Characters are in the air on the next frame. This is useful for knowing how quickly a character can begin a WD/ OoS option or how hard they are to short hop with. Special thanks to The Devicer for compiling the following information.

1-10) Fox/ICs/Kirby/Lucario/MK/Pikachu/Samus/Sheik/Sonic/Toon Link (3 frames)
11-23) C. Falcon/Charizard/Diddy/G&W/Luigi/Mario/Marth/Ness/Olimar/Roy/Squirtle/Wolf/ZSS (4 frames)
24-37) DK/Falco/Ike/Ivysaur/Jigglypuff/Lucas/Mewtwo/Peach/Pit/ROB/Snake/Wario/Yoshi/Zelda (5 frames)
38-40) DDD/Ganon/Link (6 frames)
41) Bowser (8 Frames)

though i think bowsers got shortened to 5 frames for 3.5 (citation needed)

 

[CORY]

bowser should be at 6, ganon is at 5 now. i think everything else is correct from 3.0.

@ krains123 i would recommend either shiek or marth. shiek is still a super solid character who benefits heavily from solid fundamentals (don't approach stupidly, get good at goading the opponent into mistakes, have good spacing). marth is a good character who plays with solid fundamentals, as well, but a slightly different set, since he relies more on dash dancing and frametrapping to get his stuff started.

neither of them requires super precise tech skill, so they're good to get your basic control down, then polish it up, whereas falcon needs you to be in very good control of your jumps, drifts, and lcancels to play well. he is hella fun, though, so if you enjoy his playstyle, just stick with him and you'll either languish in mediocrity or learn to read other players REALLY well and make people cry.

 

[krains123]

The window for shorthopping is the characters jumpstart (or squatframes)

when you jump, your character goes into a squat before they jump (as you would IRL)
some characters do this 'squat' faster.

To shorthop, you need to release the jump button before this time ends.

this thread contains the info for each character


-This the amount of frames it takes for a character to become airborne. Characters are in the air on the next frame. This is useful for knowing how quickly a character can begin a WD/ OoS option or how hard they are to short hop with. Special thanks to The Devicer for compiling the following information.

1-10) Fox/ICs/Kirby/Lucario/MK/Pikachu/Samus/Sheik/Sonic/Toon Link (3 frames)
11-23) C. Falcon/Charizard/Diddy/G&W/Luigi/Mario/Marth/Ness/Olimar/Roy/Squirtle/Wolf/ZSS (4 frames)
24-37) DK/Falco/Ike/Ivysaur/Jigglypuff/Lucas/Mewtwo/Peach/Pit/ROB/Snake/Wario/Yoshi/Zelda (5 frames)
38-40) DDD/Ganon/Link (6 frames)
41) Bowser (8 Frames)

though i think bowsers got shortened to 5 frames for 3.5 (citation needed)

So then characters such as bowser and link are easier then shiek and fox? If that's the case, then should I start off with someone like link? Try some other character that doesn't require as much timing.

*Edit*
@ CORY I see, I'll continue to try to use Shiek.

 

[Narpas_sword]

easier to short hop doesnt mean they're easier characters =)

 

[Chevy]

Link's jump-squat was also reduced to 5 frames.

 

[krains123]

For short hopping do you press the button like normal and eventually just have the muscle memory to not push down as hard or is there some other trick to it? A friend of mine told me to flick the bottom of the x button down and it seems to work most of the time, but I wasn't sure if this was a viable way of short hopping.

 

[ninjuh1124]

Step 1 - Play Project M. Figure out what you like, and how to set up basic comboes
Step 2 - Learn basic tech skills. Start off simple, work your way up.
Step 3 - ????
Step 4 - Congrats. You beat M2K

 

[CORY]

For short hopping do you press the button like normal and eventually just have the muscle memory to not push down as hard or is there some other trick to it? A friend of mine told me to flick the bottom of the x button down and it seems to work most of the time, but I wasn't sure if this was a viable way of short hopping.

probably the best way. it's all about letting go of the jump button in time, not how hard it's pressed. however, not pressing it down too hard (i.e. just hard enough to register a jump) helps to let go in time, hence flicking is really useful.

just gotta go grind that out in the lab for a week or so. i'd almost recommend doing it on a 3frame jumper, just because if you can short hop with fox, you can short hope with anyone.

of course, step 2 in the process is being able to consistently do it in actual matches...

 

[krains123]

probably the best way. it's all about letting go of the jump button in time, not how hard it's pressed. however, not pressing it down too hard (i.e. just hard enough to register a jump) helps to let go in time, hence flicking is really useful.

just gotta go grind that out in the lab for a week or so. i'd almost recommend doing it on a 3frame jumper, just because if you can short hop with fox, you can short hope with anyone.

of course, step 2 in the process is being able to consistently do it in actual matches...

So would you learn to flick the x button or actually press it like normal, just faster?

 

[Narpas_sword]

imo,. learn to press it faster. Flicking can be easy to muck up if you slip.

 

[krains123]

imo,. learn to press it faster. Flicking can be easy to muck up if you slip.

How long did it take you to short hop effectively and on command?

 

[Narpas_sword]

uhh,

it was like, in ssb64 that i learned it. i cant remember ever having to 'practice' it.

 

[krains123]

uhh,

it was like, in ssb64 that i learned it. i cant remember ever having to 'practice' it.

0.0 So you've been playing SSB for a long time then huh?

 

[Foo]

How long did it take you to short hop effectively and on command?

It took me over a month to get it completely consistent, lol. Maybe I was slow, though. It's funny when I hear people talk about wavedsashing being super hard, because I figured that out in no time, I think shorthopping is much harder .

 

[CORY]

yeah, wd can almost be mashed with some characters : p sh requires more control.

something you can try to work on sh: if you don't map your jump buttons to other stuff, you can use one as "short hop button" and one as "full jump button". i did that back in my melee days, just so i could set up separate muscle memories for them.

 

[Rizner]

To start competitively, don't grind tech and expect results. At this point, it's probably more important you just make smart decisions when playing (don't use bad/unsafe moves, learn how to punish mistakes, when you can approach, etc), and try to start going to tournaments even if you'll lose.

 

[krains123]

I keep getting owned by my friend... Im starting to question Sheik. Is she a harder character to use or something?

 

[Voynich]

The window for shorthopping is the characters jumpstart (or squatframes)-This the amount of frames it takes for a character to become airborne. Characters are in the air on the next frame. This is useful for knowing how quickly a character can begin a WD/ OoS option or how hard they are to short hop with. Special thanks to The Devicer for compiling the following information.

1-10) Fox/ICs/Kirby/Lucario/MK/Pikachu/Samus/Sheik/Sonic/Toon Link (3 frames)
11-23) C. Falcon/Charizard/Diddy/G&W/Luigi/Mario/Marth/Ness/Olimar/Roy/Squirtle/Wolf/ZSS (4 frames)
24-37) DK/Falco/Ike/Ivysaur/Jigglypuff/Lucas/Mewtwo/Peach/Pit/ROB/Snake/Wario/Yoshi/Zelda (5 frames)
38-40) DDD/Ganon/Link (6 frames)
41) Bowser (8 Frames)

though i think bowsers got shortened to 5 frames for 3.5 (citation needed)

Bowser's jumpsquat was reduced to 6 frames, the info is on the changelist at the PMDT's website.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Bowser's jumpsquat was reduced to 6 frames, the info is on the changelist at the PMDT's website.

yea. you're about a month late on that one bud.

 

[Paradoxium]

WAIT WAIT WAIT BEFORE YOU LEARN TECH SKILL

Here are the most important things you should know

1- shields

how to deal with them, and how to use them

2- Spacing

Where to position yourself in relation to your opponents in a way where you can threaten them but they cant punish you.

3- Positioning

where you are on the stage, knowing where all the bad/good spots are, knowing where your opponent has the least amount of options

4- Mind games

Picking up on habits, noticing your opponents patterns, also noticing patterns of your own and mixing it up

5- Punishing

Tech chases, combos, edge guards



Don't waste your time grinding worthless tech skill, beginners don't need it.

I cannot stress this enough, people always tell noobs to practice tech skill but in reality it wont make you any better at first.

It is important to start form the basics, and break everything down into baby steps.

I also forgot to mention approaching, but that kinda ties in with all 5 of those.