No Wavedashing In Tournaments?

[Chaoseater]

Hey, I was just wondering what anyone thinks about participants not using wavedashing in tournament play. Does anyone play like that in the big tournaments? How does/would it work out, do you think?

Because I used to play Melee with my 3 brothers religiously and we all have very different play styles than some of the best in the community. In fact, I hate wavedashing, at least for my play/our styles. I do other "advanced" techniques, like ground dodging, l-canceling, etc, and in my opinion, I believe my brothers and I to be pretty good (maybe not able to beat the best, but...).

So, I just wanted to see what the Smash community thought about a play style that doesnt include wave dashing for tournament play. Is it viable? Im interested to see what you guys think.

 

[The Soap]

You don't have to use any advanced techniques in tournament, but if you don't then you're unnecessarily holding yourself back.

 

[Utena]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Aniki

 

[Macdaddy53156a]

Borp especially did good against toph at Big House 4 without any advanced tech. No one's telling you to use the tech. Just people enjoy the freedom it grants you. Play how you want man.

 

[gmBottles]

If you can do well without it then you don't really need it, but I'd say that it helps.

 

[SSS]

Hey, I was just wondering what anyone thinks about participants not using wavedashing in tournament play. Does anyone play like that in the big tournaments? How does/would it work out, do you think?

Because I used to play Melee with my 3 brothers religiously and we all have very different play styles than some of the best in the community. In fact, I hate wavedashing, at least for my play/our styles. I do other "advanced" techniques, like ground dodging, l-canceling, etc, and in my opinion, I believe my brothers and I to be pretty good (maybe not able to beat the best, but...).

So, I just wanted to see what the Smash community thought about a play style that doesnt include wave dashing for tournament play. Is it viable? Im interested to see what you guys think.

don't hold yourself back unnecessarily, it's. . .unnecessary, and it brings your potential now, and anything that does that is a no-go.

 

[EddyBearr]

A person who doesn't wavedash will do better than someone who wavedashes without purpose, so there's games to be won. It's, of course, better to incorporate wavedashing.

 

[popsofctown]

Ground dodging is some sick tech

 

[victra♥]

bottom line is the more options you can utilize, the better.

 

[PolarPanda]

A person who doesn't wavedash will do better than someone who wavedashes without purpose, so there's games to be won. It's, of course, better to incorporate wavedashing.

Like anything else, it just depends upon the skill of the user and their knowledge of how to utilize things within the game with tactics.

 

[Mikkelmann]

 

[Lime Cultivist]

It's better to incorporate all technical skills that you can learn. But, you don't necessarily need them to win. I consider myself pretty technical - consistently wavedashing, l-cancelling, teching, etc. - and I have 2 friends that I always played Project M with before I left for college. One of them was as technical as me, but the other could only tech. As far as wins went, though, the three of us were even. I think one of the reasons might have been that the non-technical friend had been playing smash since he was a little kid, but I had just started at the time that brawl came out. He had all of the oldschool melee skills.

 

[pants name guy]

Ground dodging is some sick tech

that aint smash 4

 

[[Deuce]]

Everyone wavedashes these days. You're severely gimping yourself if you don't. Ken managed to be the best smasher and never wavedashed, but that was in the 04-05 era, and even he ended up picking it up because others began leaving him behind.

Enter your local tourney and see how you do. It'll be a good wake-up call.

 

[ryuu seika]

Just because you don't wish to abuse the game physics doesn't mean that others won't do so. Do not expect a fair game, you will be fighting at a significant disadvantage.
If, however, you manage to pull it off, I will strongly applaud your decision to play the game closer to how it was intended to be played.

 

[Elegant]

Hey, I was just wondering what anyone thinks about participants not using wavedashing in tournament play. Does anyone play like that in the big tournaments? How does/would it work out, do you think?

Because I used to play Melee with my 3 brothers religiously and we all have very different play styles than some of the best in the community. In fact, I hate wavedashing, at least for my play/our styles. I do other "advanced" techniques, like ground dodging, l-canceling, etc, and in my opinion, I believe my brothers and I to be pretty good (maybe not able to beat the best, but...).

So, I just wanted to see what the Smash community thought about a play style that doesnt include wave dashing for tournament play. Is it viable? Im interested to see what you guys think.

If you play religiously and you're trying to play at the highest level, especially if you play FOX, what do you do as a waveshine substitute or spacing b-airs or anything like that?

Answer: There is no substitute. You're losing potential.

 

[LightLV]

waveshine is so deliciously OP in melee, it's probably the pinnicle of playing fox.

 

[The Soap]

waveshine is so deliciously OP in melee, it's probably the pinnicle of playing fox.

lol

Edit: Oh wait, thought you said wavedash. My bad.

 

[Thor]

Hey, I was just wondering what anyone thinks about participants not using wavedashing in tournament play. Does anyone play like that in the big tournaments? How does/would it work out, do you think?

Because I used to play Melee with my 3 brothers religiously and we all have very different play styles than some of the best in the community. In fact, I hate wavedashing, at least for my play/our styles. I do other "advanced" techniques, like ground dodging, l-canceling, etc, and in my opinion, I believe my brothers and I to be pretty good (maybe not able to beat the best, but...).

So, I just wanted to see what the Smash community thought about a play style that doesnt include wave dashing for tournament play. Is it viable? Im interested to see what you guys think.

Read the title, assumed you meant a tournament variety that banned wavedashing and laughed out loud. This thread seems more reasonable.

I don't personally wavedash much (I VERY occasionally use it to get onstage from the ledge), but I play primarily Link, who has a crappy wavedash. I sometimes use Falco, and I use his wavedash onstage from the ledge a bit more, and very infrequently wavesmash because I'm not terribly technical, but once again, Falco has a meh wavedash (it's better than Link's by a lot, but it's not Luigi's or something). I took 13th at a tournament Saturday in Melee and 9th in PM 3.5 (for both, 8-man bracket pools where top 3 got out, I was bottom seed in each, but in Melee 24-player bracket, for PM 16-player bracket) for reference.

That said, given your main icon, Fox's wavedash is pretty solid, and wavedash -> usmash gives you some added range on the move (or lets you dodge an fsmash from various characters and punish [wavedash back to get out of range and usmash - I have seen someone dodge Falco fsmash this way and then land the KO via usmash]. So while of course you don't NEED it, implementing just ONE use of wavedashing (i.e, only practicing wavedash -> usmash, or wavedash out of shield, or wavedash off the ledge, or wavedash out of shine, or wahtever) and nothing more, will still improve your abilities and options as Fox.

If you want to win locals, you may squeak by. Regionals? If you're really REALLY good at other aspects of the game (and you played not-Fox, or else have incredibly accurate shield pressure with drill shines as Fox), you might be in the money. A national event? You just won't make any money using Fox without wavedashing (or anyone? I don't think even Jiggs could get by...technically some god at everything else who plays a character with a garbage wavedash MIGHT make it to the "get entry fee back" level? but it's highly unlikely) - the level of play is too high.

 

[LightLV]

Just because you don't wish to abuse the game physics doesn't mean that others won't do so. Do not expect a fair game, you will be fighting at a significant disadvantage.
If, however, you manage to pull it off, I will strongly applaud your decision to play the game closer to how it was intended to be played.

I know it's foolish to reply to such a post on a smashbros forum, but wavedash is hardly a physics glitch. It's no more an exploit than a true combo (of which the developers literally could not possibly know all possibilities of). In regards to fox, waveshine is certainly overpowered, but it has little to do with wavedash, and more to do with the fact the move is active in 1 frame.

 

[Chaoseater]

Ground dodging is some sick tech

Maybe its just me, but I feel like this could be read as sarcastic, haha. Ground dodging is probably my main thing is Smash. I love it to death.

If you play religiously and you're trying to play at the highest level, especially if you play FOX, what do you do as a waveshine substitute or spacing b-airs or anything like that?

Answer: There is no substitute. You're losing potential.

Like I said above, my main play revolves around ground dodge and more quick attacks that can rack up damage over time. Not to say, I cant combo, when applicable, haha. But honestly, my playstyle doesn't really conform to the playstyles of competitive Foxes with waveshining, etc. I'm more about improv when playing Smash. I used to play Melee so much so I know what attacks do what, how much they hurt, whats good against what, etc, so even in mid-match I sometimes flip my whole routine for the match on its head.

Like I said, I have a very unusal playstyle, but can tech when necessary, thats why I was curious as to what everyone else thought of an unorthodx playstyle that doesn't include wave dashing to death.

 

[Elegant]

Maybe its just me, but I feel like this could be read as sarcastic, haha. Ground dodging is probably my main thing is Smash. I love it to death.



Like I said above, my main play revolves around ground dodge and more quick attacks that can rack up damage over time. Not to say, I cant combo, when applicable, haha. But honestly, my playstyle doesn't really conform to the playstyles of competitive Foxes with waveshining, etc. I'm more about improv when playing Smash. I used to play Melee so much so I know what attacks do what, how much they hurt, whats good against what, etc, so even in mid-match I sometimes flip my whole routine for the match on its head.

Like I said, I have a very unusal playstyle, but can tech when necessary, thats why I was curious as to what everyone else thought of an unorthodx playstyle that doesn't include wave dashing to death.

But the fact of the matter is is that you're limiting yourself. Your "combos" are probably not true combos that you can perform with wavedashing. You are limiting your options and you aren't playing Fox to its fullest potential, and using the techs that make him top tier.

 

[Elegant]

By the way, from your first post:

"So, I just wanted to see what the Smash community thought about a play style that doesnt include wave dashing for tournament play. Is it viable? Im interested to see what you guys think."

No, a playstyle that doesn't include wavedashing ESPECIALLY FOR FOX is NOT viable.

 

[Chaoseater]

But the fact of the matter is is that you're limiting yourself. Your "combos" are probably not true combos that you can perform with wavedashing. You are limiting your options and you aren't playing Fox to its fullest potential, and using the techs that make him top tier.

Yeah, I realize that that is the general consensus and those are the reasons that make Fox tier. But I wasn't just talking about Fox, I play a bunch of different characters and my playstyle is more of a dodge-hit tactic like i mentioned.

Honestly, I don't care for wave dashing, not because its a "physics glitch" or whatever, but simply because I dont like it for my playstyle.

And just because someone doesnt throw wavedashing into their play tactics, doesnt mean they cant combo. If you know the moves of the characters and the distances they fly you, what moves to use, etc, etc, you can combo without wave dashing. Though, wave dashing definitly help for most players, however.

 

[Elegant]

Wavedashing creates true combos, without wavedashing limited true combos are possible because of DI. "You don't like it for your playstyle" sounds like you don't use it because you don't know how to do it, or are too lazy to practice it.

 

[Mr. S]

I actually went to a tourney that enforced this rule a couple years back. Granted, it was a grades 6-12 downtown library event, but it was absolutely disgusting. The TOs would walk around and ***** if they saw anything that looked like a wavedash.

Got the hell out of there.

 

[LightLV]

Yeah, I realize that that is the general consensus and those are the reasons that make Fox tier. But I wasn't just talking about Fox, I play a bunch of different characters and my playstyle is more of a dodge-hit tactic like i mentioned.

Honestly, I don't care for wave dashing, not because its a "physics glitch" or whatever, but simply because I dont like it for my playstyle.

And just because someone doesnt throw wavedashing into their play tactics, doesnt mean they cant combo. If you know the moves of the characters and the distances they fly you, what moves to use, etc, etc, you can combo without wave dashing. Though, wave dashing definitly help for most players, however.

Look.

Go to some local tournament or casuals, and play someone with consistent technical skill in melee. After you wipe the soapy water from your recently mopped face, you will immediately change your opinion.

I don't wavedash in melee either, but that's because I never practiced melee enough to be good at it. You certainly do not need wavedashing to execute good combos, but you're still going to get your ass handed to you vs. anyone who put the work in.

ESPECIALLY with fox or falco.

I actually went to a tourney that enforced this rule a couple years back. Granted, it was a grades 6-12 downtown library event, but it was absolutely disgusting. The TOs would walk around and ***** if they saw anything that looked like a wavedash.

Got the hell out of there.

That is indeed disgusting. Why host a competitive tournament if you're going to be such a loser about it? : /

Just create multiple brackets or something based on skill level, but don't artificially nerf the people who practice at the game...

 

[gmBottles]

I actually went to a tourney that enforced this rule a couple years back. Granted, it was a grades 6-12 downtown library event, but it was absolutely disgusting. The TOs would walk around and ***** if they saw anything that looked like a wavedash.

Got the hell out of there.

That's just dumb. I feel like they saw competitive play and said to themselves "Man, that sure looks hard. Just ban it entirely." Totally a stupid option, because the complex maneuvers are what makes the game so interesting anyways. Also, a Smash tourney at a library? Lol, Smash is so hype though, it'd get so loud.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Don't throw away wavedashing, embrace it. I know some people think it's not legitimate but that's too bad, there's 3 other smash games that don't have it, they can play those.

Play Melee and make the most out of the fact that it is Melee! I say this about EVERY Smash game.

 

[BBOY15]

At first I thought the OP was asking if Melee would be fun to play competetively if wavedashing was not allowed. I think it would be fun. You would have the fast pace of Melee but without the finger-numbing high amount of button presses. This is kind of how I play against my friends, although I do wavedash for a few purposes sometimes, such as wavedashing into the ledge or running at someone and wavedashing away to fake them out.

If you want to get pro with minimal wavedashing against people who do use every technique, I suggest playing as Ganondorf.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

At first I thought the OP was asking if Melee would be fun to play competetively if wavedashing was not allowed. I think it would be fun. You would have the fast pace of Melee but without the finger-numbing high amount of button presses. This is kind of how I play against my friends, although I do wavedash for a few purposes sometimes, such as wavedashing into the ledge or running at someone and wavedashing away to fake them out.

If you want to get pro with minimal wavedashing against people do use every technique, I suggest playing as Ganondorf.

Spoken like someone who's never seen a Bizzarro Flame video.

 

[rivers]

I actually went to a tourney that enforced this rule a couple years back. Granted, it was a grades 6-12 downtown library event, but it was absolutely disgusting. The TOs would walk around and ***** if they saw anything that looked like a wavedash.

Got the hell out of there.

Bro stop wavecheating.

Yeah, a tournament that specifically eliminates one of your movement options is just dumb. It stems from the bogus misconception amongst 'casual elitists' that wavedashing somehow makes you invincible, when it's really pretty damn useless if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[Clint Jaguar]

Even if you're not good at wavedashing, you should still use it when possible. I currently suck at it but I've gotten used to wavedashing off the edge of a stage, into a ledge grab to prevent my opponent from grabbing it while recovering. So it's still worth using, even if you don't exploit it as much as other players.

 

[Stride]

Honestly, I don't care for wave dashing, not because its a "physics glitch" or whatever, but simply because I dont like it for my playstyle.

my playstyle is more of a dodge-hit tactic like i mentioned.

If wavedashing doesn't fit your playstyle then you should change your playstyle until it does. Especially for Fox. I've heard people say the same thing about so many techniques (even as basic as shielding or tilts); I wonder why those people can't beat their friends? You implied that you don't want to wavedash because you use "a dodge-hit tactic"; wavedashing makes it easier to dodge things and easier to hit things.

And just because someone doesnt throw wavedashing into their play tactics, doesnt mean they cant combo. If you know the moves of the characters and the distances they fly you, what moves to use, etc, etc, you can combo without wave dashing. Though, wave dashing definitly help for most players, however.

I'm more about improv when playing Smash. I used to play Melee so much so I know what attacks do what, how much they hurt, whats good against what, etc, so even in mid-match I sometimes flip my whole routine for the match on its head.

You can combo without wavedashing, just much worse than you can with wavedashing (to varying extents depending on character; Luigi is pretty much unusable without wavedashing, Link not so much). If you know that a move hits your opponent a certain distance away, and it just so happens that you need to wavedash to continue the combo from that distance, then what use is that knowledge unless you have the execution to back it up? That happens all the time with Fox too; how are you supposed to follow up on shines? Why not have good combos/fundamentals and good techskill? There's no reason not to.

An "improvisational" playstyle can still have wavedashing (in fact, it gives you more things to improvise with). Mango's style can be described as improvisational, as can the style of many Falcon mains, for example.

 

[CT_Emerl]

honestly It just depends on how you play if you want to have more freedom(doesn't really matter lol) then it is a very comfortable tech indeed. That's just me though

 

[KACHOW!!!]

Yeah, there's not much point in banning tech, because you're just ruining the game. If you really want to ban tech, just make it a brawl tournament, and nobody wants that.

 

[Tonzura Koite]

Wait, let's slow down here for a minute. How the hell would you enforce this? What if a newer player accidentally WDs? What if a veteran player trips up and does it due to muscle memory? Is that an arbitrary stock penalty? A free hit? A forfeit? Would this expand to other ATs? After all, if you really wanna make the flawed argument that it's bad for competition, you could extend that to a lot of other physics exploits.

 

[gmBottles]

Wait, let's slow down here for a minute. How the hell would you enforce this? What if a newer player accidentally WDs? What if a veteran player trips up and does it due to muscle memory? Is that an arbitrary stock penalty? A free hit? A forfeit? Would this expand to other ATs? After all, if you really wanna make the flawed argument that it's bad for competition, you could extend that to a lot of other physics exploits.

This is why this would never work. Also, tech is fun, so removing it removes several entrants.