Nintendo tournaments and their rulesets

[Beats]

It seems this time around that Nintendo has been supporting the competitive side of Smash. This is a huge change, especially given the attitude they had towards it in the past. This obviously means more funding for tournaments, more visibility and growth in the community, and just more opportunity in general. These things are all great. However, despite all the positives I am slightly afraid about the rulesets they might enforce and how it will affect the community.

From what we have seen at E3 and SDCC, pools have been FFA with items. Then brackets have been the 1v1s. I don't find it unlikely that this will be their default tournament ruleset in the future. I believe they made it this way to fit more entrants without taking too much time, as well as catering to a wider variety of audiences. And then there are things like being stage locked, although I think that is mostly so that they can show off all the stages so I don't think that rule will stick around. And other things like time outs going to sudden death. The list goes on.

Nintendo sponsored tournaments have the potential to be a lot bigger simply because more money will be involved. A larger prize pool, bigger stages, Nintendo can provide anything that draws bigger crowds. With this scope of influence, I can see their rulesets becoming standard.

Obviously there will be people who do not like this format. There may be TOs who run tournaments independent from Nintendo that will use rulesets closer to what we have now. That may cause a divide, and conflict may ensue. That is what I am afraid of.

How do you guys think Nintendo will handle future tournaments? How do you think people will react to it? Or do you think Nintendo is doing this for pre-release hype and will stop these sorts of things as time passes?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I think Nintendo and Sakurai only had the items on to showcase them. I'd see Nintendo only having Smash Ball on if they did start doing more tourneys.

 

[DraginHikari]

Well I think the main thing to take into account is at this point, a lot of it has been marketing. The Tournaments are just a mechanism at this point to show off the game which is why I think the FFA/Items on structure is being used because it allows them to show off more elements in the game without really having to do much additional work.

After release, if Nintendo does decide to move forward there is a possibility that this could or could not change. Suppose it just depends on what they decide to do moving forward.

 

[pizzapie7]

If Nintendo is as involved in the scene as they have claimed to be, they understand what the scene would like to see. I can see them shifting away from wacky stages and rulesets after the game is released, they just used them to show off to the people who don't care about the competitive side of things. Both of those tournaments were advertisements first and competitive events second.

 

[ChikoLad]

Considering that they sponsored EVO and even showed up to interview the players there, I'm pretty sure they understand how to make more fool-proof tournament rules, but as people said, these past few tournaments were advertising more than anything.

Not only that, but they were using unfinished builds. For example, Sudden Death likely isn't something you can toggle off in the E3 build, hence, the final match of the Invitational went to Sudden Death, which normally doesn't happen in tournaments. I'm sure they would have toggled that off had it been available. I also believe turning items off wasn't properly implemented as I could see no menu for it, and they never showed it off. It's likely that there are some debug commands that allowed them to turn items on and off, rather than the actual menu we'll all be using in two months.

 

[Renji64]

There ruleset was actual a pretty good idea for getting casual players invested. But i hope they are gonna be supporting the scene afterward with a normal ruleset.

 

[Senario]

I hope they eventually ease into the format that is generally accepted for smash games atm over time. Ffa with items is a weird and generally not great way to do pools. Their bracket is fine, lack of counterpick stages but battlefield totally works.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Considering their collaborations this year with competitive players, it's possible they'll just turn and say, "Hey, Scar. How would you set up a good tournament for smash? You guys have been doing this longer."

Or they do the VGC route and just make their own system, which will probably mimic E3 and SDCC. But VGC is actually pretty awesome so no complaints here.

 

[josh bones]

Considering that they sponsored EVO and even showed up to interview the players there, I'm pretty sure they understand how to make more fool-proof tournament rules, but as people said, these past few tournaments were advertising more than anything.

Not only that, but they were using unfinished builds. For example, Sudden Death likely isn't something you can toggle off in the E3 build, hence, the final match of the Invitational went to Sudden Death, which normally doesn't happen in tournaments. I'm sure they would have toggled that off had it been available. I also believe turning items off wasn't properly implemented as I could see no menu for it, and they never showed it off. It's likely that there are some debug commands that allowed them to turn items on and off, rather than the actual menu we'll all be using in two months.

You cant "turn off" sudden death. THey just ignore it.

 

[Little_GotenSRK]

I think Nintendo just sees the E3/SDCC tournaments as advertizements; they'll likely just leave the rest to the community after the game actually comes out, same as Capcom/SEGA/Arcsys, then just throw money at it when it enters a big event.

 

[Beats]

You all make good points. I definitely feel a lot more optimistic about this now.

 

[Saikyoshi]

It's like Pokémon.

"VGA" is what the Nintendo ruleset's called. Mega Kangaskhan wins every single one. They're not taken seriously.

Actual Pokémon tournaments follow the Smogon ruleset.

I imagine Smash will be the same way; ignore VGA tournaments, follow SSBU/3D Back Room tournaments.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

Nintendo is finally learning what all the big name companies knew. Support your competitive players. I'm so proud of you guys.

Judging from what we've seen I'm positive they will be willing to change the rule set to whatever is the norm. For now I'm expecting the norm to be 4 stocks with 8 minutes as time. Hopefully they'll adopt whatever the players are most comfortable with.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

It's like Pokémon.

"VGA" is what the Nintendo ruleset's called. Mega Kangaskhan wins every single one. They're not taken seriously.

Actual Pokémon tournaments follow the Smogon ruleset.

I imagine Smash will be the same way; ignore VGA tournaments, follow SSBU/3D Back Room tournaments.

Except mega kangashkan doesn't win and is easily countered

These actual tournaments your talking about are fan made, VGC still has a major following. The reason mega kanga is broken in Smogon is because it's singles based, so it's harder to counter specific pokemon. Once you have two on the field, it's balanced. That's why Nintendo uses the vgc rules.

Nintendo sponsored EVO, they know the rules. These tournaments were just advertising.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Except mega kangashkan doesn't win and is easily countered

These actual tournaments your talking about are fan made, VGC still has a major following. The reason mega kanga is broken in Smogon is because it's singles based, so it's harder to counter specific pokemon. Once you have two on the field, it's balanced. That's why Nintendo uses the vgc rules.

Nintendo sponsored EVO, they know the rules. These tournaments were just advertising.

You're forgetting the biggest indicator that even here they have no idea in hell how their own games work:

Phione is banned for supposedly being a superpowerful legendary.

Phione.

That's like banning because he's descended from .

Not to mention that Manaphy itself is hardly viable, either...

You probably know my stance on people who ban characters that aren't actually overpowered at all from my arguments towards allowing unrestricted. That's why I'll never take VGC or any Nintendo-invented ruleset seriously.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

You're forgetting the biggest indicator that even here they have no idea in hell how their own games work:

Phione is banned for supposedly being a superpowerful legendary.

Phione.

That's like banning because he's descended from .

Not to mention that Manaphy itself is hardly viable, either...

You probably know my stance on people who ban characters that aren't actually overpowered at all from my arguments towards allowing unrestricted. That's why I'll never take VGC or any Nintendo-invented ruleset seriously.

Phone is banned because you can't get her in X/Y. If there was a manaphy event, she'd be allowed.

 

[Gameboi834]

If we have concerns, why not offer a liason? Someone who's understanding and a good people person that can help bridge the gap between us and them?

 

[Saikyoshi]

Phone is banned because you can't get her in X/Y. If there was a manaphy event, she'd be allowed.

Only proving my point. That's no reason to ban a Pokémon at all.

Speaking of which, let's not forget the utter disaster known as the April Friendlies. You know, that tournament where Xerneas, Yvetal, and Mega Mewtwo were all allowed.

The Pokémon balance team makes Sakurai look like a genius.

 

[LancerStaff]

You're forgetting the biggest indicator that even here they have no idea in hell how their own games work:

Phione is banned for supposedly being a superpowerful legendary.

Phione.

That's like banning because he's descended from .

Not to mention that Manaphy itself is hardly viable, either...

You probably know my stance on people who ban characters that aren't actually overpowered at all from my arguments towards allowing unrestricted. That's why I'll never take VGC or any Nintendo-invented ruleset seriously.

Manaphy and the like are banned because they're event Pokemon, and thusly hard to get and most likely hacked. For the cover legendaries, they just blanket ban them so they don't have to debate about it, much like the slippery slope that is stage choice. GF doesn't want to deal with the tiering stuff since it's so divisive. They'd rather not-ban powerful pokes and introduce a counter the next game instead of going through all the hassle Smogon goes through. Doesn't help that GF is balanceing for doubles while Smogon tiers for singles, which reminds me of Sakurai going for FD over BF for balanceing.

Only proving my point. That's no reason to ban a Pokémon at all.

Speaking of which, let's not forget the utter disaster known as the April Friendlies. You know, that tournament where Xerneas, Yvetal, and Mega Mewtwo were all allowed.

The Pokémon balance team makes Sakurai look like a genius.

I don't think something called the "April Friendlies" is supposed to be taken seriously. Most of X/Ys tournaments so far have been fun little gimmick tournaments, again, not supposed to be taken seriously. Like the upcoming Pikachu tournament.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Except mega kangashkan doesn't win and is easily countered

These actual tournaments your talking about are fan made, VGC still has a major following. The reason mega kanga is broken in Smogon is because it's singles based, so it's harder to counter specific pokemon. Once you have two on the field, it's balanced. That's why Nintendo uses the vgc rules.

Nintendo sponsored EVO, they know the rules. These tournaments were just advertising.

Point of clarification. The ban wasn't due to OP nature, it was due to overcentralization. Megakangaskhan was extremelly good and had access to a move that worked like a base 70 swords dance. It could countered, but therein lies the issue. Every team was running MK, a counter to it, and a counter to the counter. It centralized OU too much.

Kind a like if everyone played Fox or Meta Knight. You understand? Competitive play of any kind that wants to see diversity and growth needs to ensure such tactics cannot be exploited.

This post is directed at users in general, not the post I quoted.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

Only proving my point. That's no reason to ban a Pokémon at all.

Speaking of which, let's not forget the utter disaster known as the April Friendlies. You know, that tournament where Xerneas, Yvetal, and Mega Mewtwo were all allowed.

The Pokémon balance team makes Sakurai look like a genius.

Every poke you can't get in x/y is banned. This is so you don't have to own 6 consoles and multiple copies of every game to compete with everyone else.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

Point of clarification. The ban wasn't due to OP nature, it was due to overcentralization. Megakangaskhan was extremelly good and had access to a move that worked like a base 70 swords dance. It could countered, but therein lies the issue. Every team was running MK, a counter to it, and a counter to the counter. It centralized OU too much.

Kind a like if everyone played Fox or Meta Knight. You understand? Competitive play of any kind that wants to see diversity and growth needs to ensure such tactics cannot be exploited.

This post is directed at users in general, not the post I quoted.

We're talking about vgc rules not Smogon

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

I think that future Nintendo-organised tournaments are very likely to have the sort of format we saw at the invitational.
To assume that they would want to turn off items, or use other community-driven ideals and standards is somewhat naïve.

Remember, the primary reason Nintendo would fund a tournament is advertising, not appeasing the community. For that reason, they're going to want to showcase the entire game, not just the bits you like. Items, Final Smashes, Sudden Death, 4-Player Free-For-All; it's all going to part of every official tournament.

Not that I think this is a bad thing; I've never prescribed to the idea that these elements influence results to a massive degree. With practice in that kind of environment, the most skilled player is still going to win.

We're talking about vgc rules not Smogon

Pro tip: use the edit function instead of double-posting if you want to be infraction-free.

 

[Phantom High]

If Nintendo does run more tournaments, they'll need some professional help in terms of streaming.
SDCC showed that Nintendo are really behind in terms of stream technology. They got failures throughout the day.

 

[josh bones]

I think that future Nintendo-organised tournaments are very likely to have the sort of format we saw at the invitational.
To assume that they would want to turn off items, or use other community-driven ideals and standards is somewhat naïve.

Remember, the primary reason Nintendo would fund a tournament is advertising, not appeasing the community. For that reason, they're going to want to showcase the entire game, not just the bits you like. Items, Final Smashes, Sudden Death, 4-Player Free-For-All; it's all going to part of every official tournament.

Not that I think this is a bad thing; I've never prescribed to the idea that these elements influence results to a massive degree. With practice in that kind of environment, the most skilled player is still going to win.



Pro tip: use the edit function instead of double-posting if you want to be infraction-free.

At the SDCC tournament, top 8 was no items. I'm pretty sure they know the ruleset. That's exactly why they did previous tournaments, advertising. After the game comes out, there is no reason to advertise, so if they do tournaments, they would use a good ruleset. At worst, pools might be FFA's.

 

[DraginHikari]

If Nintendo does run more tournaments, they'll need some professional help in terms of streaming.
SDCC showed that Nintendo are really behind in terms of stream technology. They got failures throughout the day.

It wasn't nearly as bad during the Invitational and E3 in general so I think it was because the SDCC show was poorly funded and proper testing was not completed prior to the event.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

If Nintendo does run more tournaments, they'll need some professional help in terms of streaming.
SDCC showed that Nintendo are really behind in terms of stream technology. They got failures throughout the day.

The treehouse stream was for the most part pretty flawless. The invitation was well shot (well, most of the time). And the Directs only suffer lag due to audience size as far as I know. Tech issues happen. You could spend a whole week prepping and running tech rehearsals but then that one jackass moves your DownLeft blue light and you have less than half a second to figure out how to fix it without causing a scene. I don't think we should take SDCC 2014 as an example, but more as an exception. And besides, they got it all figured out in the end. I can't imagine it was an easy setup to begin with.

 

[pizzapie7]

I dislike the comparisons to Pokemon because competitive Pokemon is less mainstream than even competitive Smash and Nintendo isn't trying to sell Pokemon to the competitive community. And unless things have changed isn't Smogon still more popular than VGC?

 

[supahVGC]

It's like Pokémon.

"VGA" is what the Nintendo ruleset's called. Mega Kangaskhan wins every single one. They're not taken seriously.

Actual Pokémon tournaments follow the Smogon ruleset.

I imagine Smash will be the same way; ignore VGA tournaments, follow SSBU/3D Back Room tournaments.

Lol, Mega Kang doesn't win every single tournament.

Only proving my point. That's no reason to ban a Pokemon at all.

No legendaries are allowed because of their high base stat total and the fact that you can't get it in X/Y is a reason to ban a Pokemon.

I dislike the comparisons to Pokemon because competitive Pokemon is less mainstream than even competitive Smash and Nintendo isn't trying to sell Pokemon to the competitive community. And unless things have changed isn't Smogon still more popular than VGC?

No. VGC is more popular as all tournaments follow it. To play competitive Pokemon you need to follow Nintendo's rules which is strictly VGC.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Yeah, the transition is still ongoing. But Smogon just does singles unofficially. But VGC has been a big deal for years now.

 

[supahVGC]

Yeah, the transition is still ongoing. But Smogon just does singles unofficially. But VGC has been a big deal for years now.

I prefer VGC over Smogon mainly because of the Doubles format and you don't see Cresselia's on every team

 

[Imber]

If you think about it smash and pokemon can be pretty similar when items are on. Whoever gets the strongest pokemon wins.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

If you think about it smash and pokemon can be pretty similar when items are on. Whoever gets the strongest pokemon wins.

A rather simplified view but I guess so? I'd have said with items off. It's not always about strength either.

 

[Sparklepower]

I don't find it unlikely that this will be their default tournament ruleset in the future.

I do find it unlikely that it will be. I'm pretty sure the only reason that the ruleset was like this was that both of these tournaments wanted to be able to show off the items and FFA gameplay due to it being an upcoming game, and also to be able to fit into the schedule of an ongoing event. I would imagine when actual Nintendo tournaments happen, we'll see things like EVO where there are weekends dedicated to giving all the participants fair 1v1 pools to play in.

The only thing that might be abnormal about Nintendo tournaments is that they might only allow the several variants of Final Destination to match For Glory mode... hopefully they won't make that decision.

 

[Imber]

A rather simplified view but I guess so? I'd have said with items off. It's not always about strength either.

I was talking about the pokeball item. Depending on what you get it can single-handedly win a game.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I think there's a lot of potential. Casual players would definitely be more attracted to Nintendo's rulesets.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think nintendo would only make "for GLory" style tournaments.

 

[supercopper64]

Their rules are strange.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

i think nintendo would only make "for GLory" style tournaments.

Er, why? FG is just their setup for random matches. Even SDCC had the finals all on battlefield.

 

[LancerStaff]

Er, why? FG is just their setup for random matches. Even SDCC had the finals all on battlefield.

Because FD isn't in the demo. I'm positive post-release tournaments will stick with FD only for the finals at least. Possibly the entire tournament.