Nintendo targets TASes on Youtube

[GenNyan]

[Warning, strong language]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm3l7_tybAk

TLDR, Nintendo is taking down Youtube TAS videos with the threat of legal action (This includes videos/channels that use the official Nintendo affiliate program). I really shouldn't have to explain the significance of Nintendo potentially trying to actively destroy the PMDT, so cross your fingers and hope they never notice Project M.

This is gonna suck for every smash game, but is probably the most relevant to Project M, for obvious reasons, so I posted it here.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

They are fighting the Streisand Effect.
They quite literally cannot succeed entirely.

 

[GenNyan]

They are fighting the Streisand Effect.
They quite literally cannot succeed entirely.

I hope that you're right in terms of PM, but Youtube basically has a monopoly, and Nintendo can just tell youtube to take TASes down with barely a stir. Its not like they can simply go to another video provider; these videos with millions of views will never get the same kind of exposure.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

You're thinking too small and too short-term.
Expand your horizons.

 

[archedmaid]

I think Nintendo does it to draw more attention to the community with out really acknowledging any thing in specific. Like yeah its negative now, but they probably won't care anymore in a couple of months.

 

[Phendrana Drifts]

Remove wavedash and lcancel and make game slow for new gen babies. What do they expect. They prioritized profits over playbase. Pm has no profits, only player base. Its the better game and all smashers with any tech skill know it.

 

[Nexus| Taka]

Nintendo as a whole pisses me off. They keep messing with PM, they create systems that always need some type of annoying controller and they never support the competitive scene like other companies do. They are pretty much the apple of gaming -_-

 

[ParadOxymoron]

http://youtu.be/wVdEFa7QxBo

 

[Phendrana Drifts]

If I was nintendo Id just hire pdmt for smash 5. Save a ton of money and make a much better game that no one will complain about. But noo, they just dumb it down and slow it up for the next generation of children who never knew what it was like to try and beat games with only 3 lives.

All the fanboys are like smash 4 is good! its better than PM! no its not lol. The balance is terrible, everyone can still recover at 100%, its was made for the new generation of baby children. The only thing smash 4 has is HD graphics and Ryu, links ability to hold his upB. Samus is pretty much 100% useless with her slow ass uncancelable missles and just like the failure brawl was, they removed the best parts of the game.

These ppl just never learned how to LCancel or wavedash, or they would know that its akin to unlocking super saiyan. In a sense it feels like a new game after those essential AT's.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

If I was nintendo Id just hire pdmt for smash 5. Save a ton of money and make a much better game that no one will complain about. But noo, they just dumb it down and slow it up for the next generation of children who never knew what it was like to try and beat games with only 3 lives.

All the fanboys are like smash 4 is good! its better than PM! no its not lol. The balance is terrible, everyone can still recover at 100%, its was made for the new generation of baby children. The only thing smash 4 has is HD graphics and Ryu, links ability to hold his upB. Samus is pretty much 100% useless with her slow *** uncancelable missles and just like the failure brawl was, they removed the best parts of the game.

These ppl just never learned how to LCancel or wavedash, or they would know that its akin to unlocking super saiyan. In a sense it feels like a new game after those essential AT's.

Dont forget they took away first player story mode because "people would just upload the cut scenes to youtube", seriously just hire the pm guys already and make a pm smash 5, (without the crazy nerfs every patch) and they will make more money than any other game.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Dont forget they took away first player story mode because "people would just upload the cut scenes to youtube"

Well actually no one liked Subspace Emissary mode.
I mean show me a guy who does

 

[tasteless gentleman]

But it was interesting to have an was something to do, and the reason they refused to do a story mode was kinda lame

 

[Mc.Rad]

Couldn't Nintendo abuse Project M to promote more Brawl sales? Like "If you buy brawl you can re-mod it to be better, but you need to have a brawl disk and not an illegal iso or we'll rip your tounges out." I'm ok with removing ISO's, but for a modification that promotes anti-piracy and actually ENCOURAGES users to own Brawl for it to work is really ridiculous.

 

[Bleck]

Nintendo is taking down TASs because they use ROMs. ROMs, along with emulation in general, aren't legal.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Nintendo is taking down TASs because they use ROMs. ROMs, along with emulation in general, aren't legal.

That makes sense. It's also better than going off ranting about how Smash 4 sucks, even though I never have any room to rant about anything on these boards

 

[GenNyan]

Expand your horizons.

Please. Be more vague. Do the impossible.

Remove wavedash and lcancel and make game slow for new gen babies. What do they expect. They prioritized profits over playbase. Pm has no profits, only player base. Its the better game and all smashers with any tech skill know it.

This actually has nothing to do with the thread, or any of the previous posts. I feel like you're very confused.

Couldn't Nintendo abuse Project M to promote more Brawl sales?

Nintendo doesn't make any real money off brawl anymore, aside from the occasional disk left in their inventory. There are more than enough brawl disks already in circulation to sate Project M fans, since there were 12.6 Million global sales. Source:
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/6962/super-smash-bros-brawl/

Nintendo is taking down TASs because they use ROMs. ROMs, along with emulation in general, aren't legal.

My question is why Nintendo cares if its illegal. They really have nothing to gain, piracy has never been a huge problem for Nintendo, and this is only going to make people dislike Nintendo (Causing them to jump to their competitors). Besides, how will they go about determining what is a TAS and what isn't, if they're not clearly marked? They can't actually prove that somebody DIDN'T do it themselves.

 

[Bleck]

My question is why Nintendo cares if its illegal. They really have nothing to gain, piracy has never been a huge problem for Nintendo, and this is only going to make people dislike Nintendo

It's not your place to decide what has been a problem for Nintendo. You don't work for Nintendo. That piracy of Nintendo games doesn't affect you has no bearing on how Nintendo perceives it.

(Causing them to jump to their competitors).

Nobody is going to not buy a Nintendo console because Nintendo removed TASs from Youtube. People buy Nintendo consoles to play Nintendo games, not as an expression of support in The Console War (which isn't real).

Besides, how will they go about determining what is a TAS and what isn't, if they're not clearly marked? They can't actually prove that somebody DIDN'T do it themselves.

Nintendo doesn't really go out of their way to shut down LPers on Youtube very often, because they understand that LPs have value in areas outside of watching the game itself (i.e people watch Game Grumps for the comedy, not necessarily for the games). In this respect the existence of TASs has no appreciable value - it's literally just someone playing the game. The fact that it's tool-assisted isn't really the point - it's that they're basically just showing the full game being completed. It's somewhat comparable to the difference between streaming something like MST3K (generally acceptable) and straight-up streaming a movie (essentially piracy, legally-speaking).

 

[GenNyan]

It's not your place to decide what has been a problem for Nintendo. You don't work for Nintendo. That piracy of Nintendo games doesn't affect you has no bearing on how Nintendo perceives it.

How does this not affect me though? I enjoy TASs, and Nintendo is taking them down. "Not my place?" I don't need to be the CEO of Nintendo to have an opinion.

Nobody is going to not buy a Nintendo console because Nintendo removed TASs from Youtube. People buy Nintendo consoles to play Nintendo games, not as an expression of support in The Console War (which isn't real).

Have you seen the advertising that Nintendo gives the Wii U? That thing needs every scrap of help it can get. If people don't know about Nintendo consoles, they don't buy Nintendo consoles.

Nintendo doesn't really go out of their way to shut down LPers on Youtube very often, because they understand that LPs have value in areas outside of watching the game itself (i.e people watch Game Grumps for the comedy, not necessarily for the games). In this respect the existence of TASs has no appreciable value - it's literally just someone playing the game. The fact that it's tool-assisted isn't really the point - it's that they're basically just showing the full game being completed. It's somewhat comparable to the difference between streaming something like MST3K (generally acceptable) and straight-up streaming a movie (essentially piracy, legally-speaking).

Excuse me, Mr. High Chancellor of Art on youtube, I forgot that since you don't like something, it has "no appreciable value."

If you can watch these videos and still tell me that they are "Literally just someone playing the game," then I'll retract my argument in full.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcGoqGmuRQg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXrUfhyWkbY

 

[Bleck]

How does this not affect me though? I enjoy TASs, and Nintendo is taking them down. "Not my place?" I don't need to be the CEO of Nintendo to have an opinion.

No, but you do need to be at least an employee of Nintendo to have a valid opinion about whether or not something affects Nintendo.

Have you seen the advertising that Nintendo gives the Wii U? That thing needs every scrap of help it can get. If people don't know about Nintendo consoles, they don't buy Nintendo consoles.

People aren't going to find out about Nintendo consoles through tool-assisted speedruns. This reasoning is specious.

Excuse me, Mr. High Chancellor of Art on youtube, I forgot that since you don't like something, it has "no appreciable value."

I didn't say I didn't like them.

If you can watch these videos and still tell me that they are "Literally just someone playing the game," then I'll retract my argument in full.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcGoqGmuRQg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXrUfhyWkbY

You know what the "S" in TAS stands for, right? Despite the title of the videos, those aren't TASs - they're not speedruns, they're exhibitions.

The problem is specifically with tool-assisted speedruns - exhibitions (like the above videos) or things like arbitrary code injections don't demonstrate the entirety of the experience of the game, regardless of whether or not they're tool-assisted. For example, watching an exhibition of a fighting game doesn't demonstrate the full experience of playing that fighting game. Watching someone execute code for Pong inside Super Mario World doesn't demonstrate the full experience of playing Super Mario World. However, a tool-assisted speedrun of, say, Streets of Rage, is basically the game being played from start to finish. Watching a tool-assisted speedrun of the game more or less spoils the experience if you haven't played it.

And that would be fine, if videos of TASs were being shared privately - but Youtube is a public place. Having videos that are essentially The Whole Game widely available to the public is not something that Nintendo sees any value in, and reasonably so, I think.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Mario Maker's release might have had influence on this recently, since I am not sure why they would choose now to do that over another time.

But just a guess of mine for the ROM hacking parts.

 

[GenNyan]

No, but you do need to be at least an employee of Nintendo to have a valid opinion about whether or not something affects Nintendo.

It affects me. I am a customer of Nintendo. So it affects Nintendo.

People aren't going to find out about Nintendo consoles through tool-assisted speedruns. This reasoning is specious.

Why not? A large number of Wii owners don't even know that the Wii U is a separate console, and not just a new controller. Your reasoning is based on the arbitrary/baseless assumption that a video with millions of views somehow will fail to advertise a game.

You know what the "S" in TAS stands for, right? Despite the title of the videos, those aren't TASs - they're not speedruns, they're exhibitions.

The problem is specifically with tool-assisted speedruns - exhibitions (like the above videos) or things like arbitrary code injections don't demonstrate the entirety of the experience of the game, regardless of whether or not they're tool-assisted. For example, watching an exhibition of a fighting game doesn't demonstrate the full experience of playing that fighting game. Watching someone execute code for Pong inside Super Mario World doesn't demonstrate the full experience of playing Super Mario World. However, a tool-assisted speedrun of, say, Streets of Rage, is basically the game being played from start to finish. Watching a tool-assisted speedrun of the game more or less spoils the experience if you haven't played it.

Nintendo doesn't really go out of their way to shut down LPers on Youtube very often, because they understand that LPs have value in areas outside of watching the game itself (i.e people watch Game Grumps for the comedy, not necessarily for the games). In this respect the existence of TASs has no appreciable value - it's literally just someone playing the game. The fact that it's tool-assisted isn't really the point - it's that they're basically just showing the full game being completed. It's somewhat comparable to the difference between streaming something like MST3K (generally acceptable) and straight-up streaming a movie (essentially piracy, legally-speaking).

And what if somebody commentated over a TAS, huh? Isn't it exactly the same as a LetsPlay then? LPs show the entire game as well. The lines begin to blur, no?

These types of videos linked in the OP are targeted as well though, Nintendo can take down any videos without retaliation. What Nintendo is doing is illegal, because they don't even consider fair use. They run an automated script to take down videos. If someone took Nintendo to court after their video got taken down because they didn't use the affiliate program, but did commentate said footage, the Youtuber would win. The thing is, nobody has the money or patience to actually challenge them in court.


I honestly don't understand how people can try to defend Nintendo when they pull **** like this.

"Its ok to take down TASs because they aren't legal." Project M isn't legal. Do you think its ok for Nintendo to take Project M down? You'll say no now, but you'll defend Nintendo to the grave when it actually happens.

 

[Bleck]

It affects me. I am a customer of Nintendo. So it affects Nintendo.

You're assuming that Nintendo has to consider the opinions of each one of their consumers, which they do not (and thankfully so).

Why not? A large number of Wii owners don't even know that the Wii U is a separate console, and not just a new controller. Your reasoning is based on the arbitrary/baseless assumption that a video with millions of views somehow will fail to advertise a game.

Yes, because like I said before, the idea that a speedrun of a Nintendo game advertises a Nintendo game is specious. People don't go looking for speedruns of videogames that they did not already know existed. Youtube's related-videos algorithms aren't going to suggest that someone watch a speedrun if video games weren't something that they already were interested in.

And what if somebody commentated over a TAS, huh?

They don't.

What Nintendo is doing is illegal, because they don't even consider fair use.

Fair use doesn't apply to speedruns.

If someone took Nintendo to court after their video got taken down because they didn't use the affiliate program, but did commentate said footage, the Youtuber would win.

No, they wouldn't, because fair use doesn't apply to speedruns.

I honestly don't understand how people can try to defend Nintendo when they pull **** like this.

Nintendo is trying to defend the integrity of their products to maximize their value. There's not really anything wrong with this beyond the slight inconvenience posed to people interested in TASs - note that Nintendo only takes down videos in widely used public sites (like Youtube) and seemingly not in any other privately owned sites (like tasvideos.org). You're making mountains out of molehills, here.

"Its ok to take down TASs because they aren't legal." Project M isn't legal. Do you think its ok for Nintendo to take Project M down?

Yes, I do. In fact, I've argued in the past that if Nintendo is responsible for the suppression of PM at various competitive events, that it's the smart thing to do, because the existence of PM contributes to a continuous schism in the competitive Smash community founded in the idea that faulty or unhealthy game mechanics are generally a good thing, which subsequently contributes to a negative opinion of Nintendo based on unreasonable expectations of game design based on populist sentiment rather than critical analysis.

 

[GenNyan]

Fair use doesn't apply to speedruns.

No, they wouldn't, because fair use doesn't apply to speedruns.

Yes, I'm sure there is legislation that says "Yeah man, Fair use applies to everything, except like, speed runners, we don't like them." And in my quote "If someone took Nintendo to court after their video got taken down because they didn't use the affiliate program, but did commentate said footage, the Youtuber would win," I was referring to Lets players, who are somehow magically different than TASs (in your eyes).

They don't.

What's to stop them from doing so?

Yes, I do. In fact, I've argued in the past that if Nintendo is responsible for the suppression of PM at various competitive events, that it's the smart thing to do, because the existence of PM contributes to a continuous schism in the competitive Smash community founded in the idea that faulty or unhealthy game mechanics are generally a good thing, which subsequently contributes to a negative opinion of Nintendo based on unreasonable expectations of game design based on populist sentiment rather than critical analysis.

*Unreasonable expectations* So... It is outside of Nintendo's power to make a game like PM? What? "This game made by a bunch of dudes working with no budget is better than any smash game we could make, so lets kill it so people buy our stuff instead" Is your defense of Nintendo in a nutshell. Nintendo doesn't care about schisms in the Smash community because they don't care about the Smash community. I assume that you supported Nintendo when they tried to take Melee out of Evo, huh?

And do you really want to start the "faulty/unhealthy game mechanics" argument?

 

[LightningDragon]

Fair use does apply to Let's Plays. But TAS's do not fit any of the criteria for Fair Use to apply. Do your fact-checking.

 

[SunJester]

Its because of Mario Maker's release. They don't want people looking up levels on youtube and finding ROM hacks. Same reason they went after PM around Smash 4's release.

But the game's still around, and ROM hacks are still around.

 

[GenNyan]

Fair use does apply to Let's Plays. But TAS's do not fit any of the criteria for Fair Use to apply. Do your fact-checking.

Ok, then why does Nintendo also take down Lets plays that don't use their affiliate system? That is certainly illegal, even given your definition of fair use.

 

[LightningDragon]

Ok, then why does Nintendo also take down Lets plays that don't use their affiliate system? That is certainly illegal, even given your definition of fair use.

Because making profit off of assets created by others without permission can be a legally valid reason to sue. Fair Use does not necessarily apply when the product turns a profit.

It's not "my definition" of Fair Use. It's the definition of fair use. You also need to consider that Fair Use is not an international copyright law.

http://copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

 

[Bleck]

Yes, I'm sure there is legislation that says "Yeah man, Fair use applies to everything, except like, speed runners, we don't like them." And in my quote "If someone took Nintendo to court after their video got taken down because they didn't use the affiliate program, but did commentate said footage, the Youtuber would win," I was referring to Lets players, who are somehow magically different than TASs (in your eyes).

They're different because the media that they're producing is different in nature. It's not magic, it's logic.

What's to stop them from doing so?

The idea that people can do commentary on a speedrun is not a valid argument in defense of those that do not.

*Unreasonable expectations* So... It is outside of Nintendo's power to make a game like PM? What?

Unreasonable expectations, as in, it's unreasonable to expect Nintendo to make a game that fits in with what one's criteria of "a good game" is if their criteria are based on populist sentiment rather than critical analysis. You know, that thing that I already said.

"This game made by a bunch of dudes working with no budget is better than any smash game we could make, so lets kill it so people buy our stuff instead" Is your defense of Nintendo in a nutshell.

There are parts of PM that are better than Smash 4, but whether or not it's a better game is subjective at best.

Also, yes, that's my point - the existence of PM indicates a large group of people that more or less argue that they can "do better" than Nintendo at doing what Nintendo does, which is bad for business. It would be in their best interests to shut it down - that they've only somewhat suppressed it (supposedly) in the competitive scene indicates at least some appreciable benevolence.

Nintendo doesn't care about schisms in the Smash community because they don't care about the Smash community. I assume that you supported Nintendo when they tried to take Melee out of Evo, huh?

Yes. The more focus is put onto Melee as a competitive game, especially now in comparison to Smash 4, the more it warps the Smash community's perception of what is and is not a good game.

One thing that's important to understand is that all game companies that support competitive scenes around their games do it as advertising - there's no point to supporting the community for a game that nobody can realistically buy anymore. Capcom doesn't support Street Fighter 2 or Marvel Vs. Capcom 2, NetherRealm Studios doesn't support Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, and Namco doesn't support Soul Calibur 2 or Tekken 3, even though these games still have very active and dedicated fanbases.

Nintendo not supporting Melee or PM would be a good business decision even if the communities behind those games didn't actively go out of their way to criticize the series' further entries for being different (for the better, honestly), which is unfortunately something that still runs rampant, and the fact that you or others can't wrap your head around implies some latent entitlement issues.

And do you really want to start the "faulty/unhealthy game mechanics" argument?

Yes. Almost one hundred percent of my posts are me subtly, but consistently, trying to start this argument.

 

[Krauserlols]

Well actually no one liked Subspace Emissary mode.
I mean show me a guy who does

Ugh i know im going to take alot of Flak for this but i dont care, i do like the Idea of the Space Emisary, i always though Super Smash fighting mechanics would make for a great adventure fighting game, kinda like Guacamele.

Is it good? no its pretty bad with a few moments of greatness (That some of the boss fights where really cool, specially Tabuu) overshadowed by a ****on of horrible ideas (that rehashed last chapter before Tabuu....).

 

[archedmaid]

Is this recollection correct, Nintendo stated that if they acknowledge any thing they are forced to do some thing legal about it? So wouldn't that mean that they know every last thing about the Nintendo related community, but simply just don't acknowledge any of it, because if they did they would just legally have to destroy it?

In my opinion threads like this do more damage to the community and improve the chances of problems, instead just existing and letting things happen.

 

[GenNyan]

Because making profit off of assets created by others without permission can be a legally valid reason to sue. Fair Use does not necessarily apply when the product turns a profit.

It's not "my definition" of Fair Use. It's the definition of fair use. You also need to consider that Fair Use is not an international copyright law.

http://copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

"Courts look at how the party claiming fair use is using the copyrighted work, and are more likely to find that nonprofit educational and noncommercial uses are fair. This does not mean, however, that all nonprofit education and noncommercial uses are fair and all commercial uses are not fair; instead, courts will balance the purpose and character of the use against the other factors below. Additionally, “transformative” uses are more likely to be considered fair."

Did you even read the link you sent me? I mean damn.

"if the use employs only a small amount of copyrighted material, fair use is more likely. That said, some courts have found use of an entire work to be fair under certain circumstances. And in other contexts, using even a small amount of a copyrighted work was determined not to be fair because the selection was an important part—or the “heart”—of the work."

Youtubers will have videos taken down, even if said videos only contains a few seconds of game footage. The argument can hardly be made that the "heart" of a video game can be portrayed in a matter of seconds, or even minutes.

Yes. The more focus is put onto Melee as a competitive game, especially now in comparison to Smash 4, the more it warps the Smash community's perception of what is and is not a good game.

One thing that's important to understand is that all game companies that support competitive scenes around their games do it as advertising - there's no point to supporting the community for a game that nobody can realistically buy anymore. Capcom doesn't support Street Fighter 2 or Marvel Vs. Capcom 2, NetherRealm Studios doesn't support Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, and Namco doesn't support Soul Calibur 2 or Tekken 3, even though these games still have very active and dedicated fanbases.

Nintendo not supporting Melee or PM would be a good business decision even if the communities behind those games didn't actively go out of their way to criticize the series' further entries for being different (for the better, honestly), which is unfortunately something that still runs rampant, and the fact that you or others can't wrap your head around implies some latent entitlement issues.

There's a difference between merely not supporting Melee, and actively telling people "No, you cannot play this anymore." Sorry for feeling entitled to be able to play a game that I bought. So sorry.

Yes. Almost one hundred percent of my posts are me subtly, but consistently, trying to start this argument.

At least you're honest.

Other than L-cancelling and Crouch canceling, which I will admit are not perfect, what are these "unhealthy" game mechanics?

 

[MechWarriorNY]

People are gonna play regardless of whether it's lawful or not.
...Uh, what's your point, again?

 

[LightningDragon]

"This does not mean, however, that all nonprofit education and noncommercial uses are fair and all commercial uses are not fair"

Did you even read the link you sent me? I mean damn.

Can you not strawman me? Since when did I say making a profit automatically disqualifies a work from Fair Use applying? I only stated that it was an important factor.

Besides, I already told you that Fair Use is not an international copyright law. Nintendo is not an American company. They don't have to follow the same copyright laws as American companies do.

 

[GenNyan]

Because making profit off of assets created by others without permission can be a legally valid reason to sue.

You said those words, it isn't a strawman.

 

[LightningDragon]

You said those words, it isn't a strawman.

Can, not is. Note that I did not use an absolute here. When I'm saying that something can happen, I'm also saying that it may not happen. You still misrepresented my argument.

 

[Bleck]

There's a difference between merely not supporting Melee, and actively telling people "No, you cannot play this anymore." Sorry for feeling entitled to be able to play a game that I bought. So sorry.

They weren't just telling people they can't play it anymore, they were telling people they couldn't stream a tourney of it, and at worst, that they couldn't have that tourney at all. Nintendo was wrong to try to pre-emptively shut down competitive interest in Melee at that time, because a) Smash 4 wasn't even out yet and b) Melee had already been the centerpiece of the community for close to a decade at that point. It wouldn't have accomplished what they wanted, which is why they backed down after the backlash.

Other than L-cancelling and Crouch canceling, which I will admit are not perfect, what are these "unhealthy" game mechanics?

L-canceling is the single biggest source of balance issues in the game.

Second to that, ledge-hogging.

Crouch canceling is needless obfuscation of defensive options.

The separation of spikes and meteor smashes is meaningless and only serves to artificially make certain characters worse.

The existence of wave-movement inflates the value of faster attacks - similarly to l-canceling - thus tilting the metagame towards characters that were already good in Melee (and tilting people's opinions towards anyone else who's good having some kind of "gimmick" that must therefore be nerfed because it's "unhealthy").

Buffering is valuable because it lowers the skill floor without negatively affecting anything else - removing it is literally just ****-measuring.

Powershielding functioning as a reflector for projectiles makes people believe that people have more options to deal with projectiles than they reasonably can be expected to, thus leading to projectiles being overly powerful overall and, again, tilting the metagame towards characters that have access to them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

They weren't just telling people they can't play it anymore, they were telling people they couldn't stream a tourney of it, and at worst, that they couldn't have that tourney at all. Nintendo was wrong to try to pre-emptively shut down competitive interest in Melee at that time, because a) Smash 4 wasn't even out yet and b) Melee had already been the centerpiece of the community for close to a decade at that point. It wouldn't have accomplished what they wanted, which is why they backed down after the backlash.



L-canceling is the single biggest source of balance issues in the game.

Second to that, ledge-hogging.

Crouch canceling is needless obfuscation of defensive options.

The separation of spikes and meteor smashes is meaningless and only serves to artificially make certain characters worse.

The existence of wave-movement inflates the value of faster attacks - similarly to l-canceling - thus tilting the metagame towards characters that were already good in Melee (and tilting people's opinions towards anyone else who's good having some kind of "gimmick" that must therefore be nerfed because it's "unhealthy").

Buffering is valuable because it lowers the skill floor without negatively affecting anything else - removing it is literally just ****-measuring.

Powershielding functioning as a reflector for projectiles makes people believe that people have more options to deal with projectiles than they reasonably can be expected to, thus leading to projectiles being overly powerful overall and, again, tilting the metagame towards characters that have access to them.

This last part more or less is where I stand on a lot of these mechanics.

Wow kinda scary that way.

~

Also about the no streaming thing at EVO, pretty sure some one gave a blanket answer to them when in reality they would have been ok with it before the mountains of hate they got.

At least that makes more sense to me.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Nintendo is taking down TASs because they use ROMs. ROMs, along with emulation in general, aren't legal.

Technically that's not entirely true. Emulation is perfectly legal, as long as you're emulating legally obtained ROMs. Of course it's not legal to download ROMs off the internet, but if you have the tools to do so you are legally allowed to rip the ROM yourself from a cartridge you own. Same as ripping MP3s off a CD. Of course, not many people do this since it requires specialized hardware, but as long as the viewers have no way of knowing where they got their ROMs they can hide behind plausible deniability.

Nintendo's takedown letters actually make no mention of this being illegal, because they know they can't say that. They only refer to them as "unauthorized copies".

The problem is specifically with tool-assisted speedruns - exhibitions (like the above videos) or things like arbitrary code injections don't demonstrate the entirety of the experience of the game, regardless of whether or not they're tool-assisted. For example, watching an exhibition of a fighting game doesn't demonstrate the full experience of playing that fighting game. Watching someone execute code for Pong inside Super Mario World doesn't demonstrate the full experience of playing Super Mario World. However, a tool-assisted speedrun of, say, Streets of Rage, is basically the game being played from start to finish. Watching a tool-assisted speedrun of the game more or less spoils the experience if you haven't played it.

And that would be fine, if videos of TASs were being shared privately - but Youtube is a public place. Having videos that are essentially The Whole Game widely available to the public is not something that Nintendo sees any value in, and reasonably so, I think.

I take it you've never watched much TASs. They're focused on completely destroying games with heavy glitch abuse, RNG manipulation, and sequence breaking, and often revolve around things that are literally impossible for human hands to execute. They're very, very, very different from The Whole Game as a human would play it, and that's what makes them so entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDkxRA7yxLY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSSVxOMLhIo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=563xdKTT-AQ

Look at these and tell me that's The Whole Game and will spoil the experience for players.

 

[Bleck]

Technically that's not entirely true. Emulation is perfectly legal, as long as you're emulating legally obtained ROMs. Of course it's not legal to download ROMs off the internet, but if you have the tools to do so you are legally allowed to rip the ROM yourself from a cartridge you own.

Despite being widely shared information, this isn't true. There is no "second copy" rule - whether or not you own the game that you have a ROM for is irrelevant, and the tools that one would use to make a ROM are also illegal.

Nintendo itself details this on their corporate legal page.

Same as ripping MP3s off a CD.

Which is also illegal.

I take it you've never-

I'm gonna stop you right there, since you've already made two stupid arguments in this post by this point (literally refuted by seconds of googling), which is two too many to be acting so smug and dismissive.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Nintendo itself details this on their corporate legal page.

Did you even read the text you're quoting? They explicitly admit you can rip them, just not download them.

The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic.

The only thing they explicitly state is illegal is downloading them, because it would be a lie to claim that your own rips are illegal. They never refer to backups as anything more than "unauthorized".

The very paragraph you linked on Wikipedia also contradicts you too:

The law makes no explicit grant or denial of a right to make a "personal use" copy of another's copyrighted content on one's own digital media and devices. For example, space shifting, by making a copy of a personally-owned audio CD for transfer to an MP3 player for that person's personal use, is not explicitly allowed or forbidden.

Existing copyright statutes may apply to specific acts of personal copying, as determined in cases in the civil or criminal court systems, building up a body of case law. Consumer copyright infringement cases in this area, to date, have only focused on issues related to consumer rights and the applicability of the law to the sharing of ripped files, not to the act of ripping, per se.

I'm gonna stop you right there, since you've already made two stupid arguments in this post by this point (literally refuted by seconds of googling), which is two too many to be acting so smug and dismissive.

The sheer irony of hearing this from you is staggering.

You're just ducking having to defend where your post really goes wrong. And no, I'm not gonna let you duck that.

I managed to track down a mirror of PangeaPanga's most popular video, a TAS of a romhack. A romhack meant to be nigh impossible for normal human hands to play, and bears very little resemblance to the original game anymore. Please, watch it and explain to me how this spoils The Whole Game for viewers.